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OverSword

Communism, socialism and morality

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“UNDER capitalism”, ran the old Soviet-era joke, “man exploits man. Under communism it is just the opposite.” In fact new research suggests that the Soviet system inspired not just sarcasm but cheating too: in East Germany, at least, communism appears to have inculcated moral laxity.

Lars Hornuf of the University of Munich and Dan Ariely, Ximena García-Rada and Heather Mann of Duke University ran an experiment last year to test Germans’ willingness to lie for personal gain. Some 250 Berliners were randomly selected to take part in a game where they could win up to €6 ($8).

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Lol at how desperate people seem to be getting to have a go at Obama.

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“UNDER capitalism”, ran the old Soviet-era joke, “man exploits man. Under communism it is just the opposite.” In fact new research suggests that the Soviet system inspired not just sarcasm but cheating too

I'll buy that. Under the Soviet system, the workers pretended to work and the government pretended to pay them.

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those traits have nothing to do with political leanings....

that's just human energy

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Lol at how desperate people seem to be getting to have a go at Obama.

Obama or America are never once mentioned in that article. The experiment found the following:

The authors found that, on average, those who had East German roots cheated twice as much as those who had grown up in West Germany under capitalism. They also looked at how much time people had spent in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The longer the participants had been exposed to socialism, the greater the likelihood that they would claim improbable numbers of high rolls.

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those traits have nothing to do with political leanings....

that's just human energy

It's not political leanings, it's social environment. Are you going to try to claim that environment has no influence on a persons overall character?

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Obama or America are never once mentioned in that article. The experiment found the following:

The authors found that, on average, those who had East German roots cheated twice as much as those who had grown up in West Germany under capitalism. They also looked at how much time people had spent in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The longer the participants had been exposed to socialism, the greater the likelihood that they would claim improbable numbers of high rolls.

The subtle allusion to socialism was nothing to do with the Great Man then. :innocent:
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It does seem to say that those raised under communism lie more and have more lax morals. Maybe its because under communism you had to. Even if you aren't living under communism anymore old habits die hard.

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I don't have problem with capitalism or socialism in theory. The problem I have is with the people who try to manipulate either one and try to control either one for their own personal gain. Who can you trust to do right with either one in place?

And it seems to me the U.S. has got a mixture of both now, but it's all corrupted on many levels. Does anybody else see that?

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I'm no longer surprised by the lack of trust and abuse of power in any organization/political system. To lead requires power. Those who desire, seek and achieve power of control over others, require aggressive, violent, manipulative, psychotic/socio-pathic tendencies in order to succeed and maintain.

In any political, religious, or grass roots organization, if the person/s in authority do not possess, display and master these skills/traits, they do not maintain their authority for long. It's inherent to the structure and is compounded by the size of the organization and the mindset of the culture. In this case, on this level, I see very little difference in east/west.

If kept small enough, the inherently negative aspects of leadership can be held in balance with a bit more success. But any large or wildly successful organization is going to be rife with psychotic tendencies, due to the nature of the people attracted to the positions of highest authority and the requirements of maintaining that authority. There is always another one waiting to knock off the king. The Sword of Damocles is ever-present.

I see this not being the norm on all levels and in all locations; there are, of course, always exceptions. But the overall culture of leadership and control in east and west, both display a deep psychosis from my perspective.

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The problem of course is that economic behavior is an ingrained genetics trait, you can watch it in the way protozoan behave, wild animals, and humans. They key to the most prosperous economics was always to meld human behavior with the right controls to not let it over run everything else. We do this with math an research just like we do with a space program. Until we fully get this concept we will falter and chaos and ecology will resume.

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From article:

when it comes to ethics, a capitalist upbringing appears to trump a socialist one

Uh-oh.....I guess we are all in big trouble.

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Factor this in, if you will: Germany's prime minister Angela Merkel is the daughter of a (formerly East) German Lutheran pastor. Just think about that. . . lying, lax morals. . .Eh, I guess it doesn't mean a thing, after all. . .

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Factor this in, if you will: Germany's prime minister Angela Merkel is the daughter of a (formerly East) German Lutheran pastor. Just think about that. . . lying, lax morals. . .Eh, I guess it doesn't mean a thing, after all. . .

sounds like the perfect prep school for a modern politician...

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Considering that American politics is utterly dominated by 'christians' and given our current state of morality in politics.

This doesn't bode very well for the claim of the moral fiber woven into Christianity's world view.

In the end, what is right is what is right because it's right and this does not stem from any political or religious thinking.

Religious thinking is the attempt by people to explain why what is right is right.

It's an attempted, in my opinion very misguided descriptor, not the source.

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Posted (edited)

Considering that American politics is utterly dominated by 'christians' and given our current state of morality in politics.

This doesn't bode very well for the claim of the moral fiber woven into Christianity's world view.

We are? This is news to me

Edited by spartan max2

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Well he's right about that. I've seen a lot of politics dominated by Christians most of the time, even on this website. I've seen it on other social websites as well, like Topix or Facebook. Christians love to talk and preach politics and lay down the 'it's our way or the highway' law, I know...I use to be one.

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Posted (edited)

The longer the participants had been exposed to socialism, the greater the likelihood that they would claim improbable numbers of high rolls.

The results had nothing to do with exposure to any system of economic society - socialism, capitalism, etc - but to the perceived level of corruption in the society one develops in. In a more corrupt society, the average person will learn to be more corrupt.

So, sorry to rain on the proud capitalist's triumphalist parade - but the conclusion drawn from the study that "socialism causes lower morality" is utterly false.

Edited by Leonardo
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Posted (edited)

In some states, it's still a law on the books that the non-religious cannot hold office.

http://americanhuman...rohibit-godless

list of atheists in congress...

http://www.huffingto..._n_3944108.html

I mean yeah alot of them claim to be christian but how many do you think really are? As a politician you want to appeal to as many people as possible. So by claiming that religion you appeal to a larger sect.

My point is that it dosent seem fair to say "dominated" by Christians and that it dosent seem fair to use politicians of all people as the reflection of a religions morals

The results had nothing to do with exposure to any system of economic society - socialism, capitalism, etc - but to the perceived level of corruption in the society one develops in. In a more corrupt society, the average person will learn to be more corrupt.

So, sorry to rain on the proud capitalist's triumphalist parade - but the conclusion drawn from the study that "socialism causes lower morality" is utterly false.

But you could argue that Communism and heavily socialistic societies breed more corruption then other systems hence making a more corrupt society making people learn to be more corrupt

Edited by spartan max2

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But you could argue that Communism and heavily socialistic societies breed more corruption then other systems hence making a more corrupt society making people learn to be more corrupt

Sure you could argue that, but then you'd have to back up the argument with evidence which I think you'd find very difficult. The study is either one of those in which the data was gathered to prove a conclusion - not draw an unbiased conclusion from any data gathered - or those conducting the study were incompetent in analysing the data to draw a conclusion. In either case, the study is fatally flawed.

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Political and religious systems stem from human conditions.

As such, they are formed from the human mind, so they are filled with human qualities.

The positive and the negative.

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We are? This is news to me

You must not be gay, atheist, a woman or of a non-abrahamic minority religion. If we were a truly secular there would be no argument over women's health care, gay marriage or teaching Creationism in science class.

I think there are lot of countries in the EU, like Denmark that has set a balance between the capitalism and socialism. Pure capitalism you end up with oligarchy of greed which is how the US is going, pure socialism you end up with Eastern Germany. Neither alone work, but there is a middle ground that I think would work.

Hey, anybody seen Frank, he should be in on this.

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