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danielost

Russia commits act of war.

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Every president has done his share of golfing through conflicts, and other extracurricular activities, to boot. But you raise a good point about the U.S.-Ukraine relationship. The problem is that any military maneuvers, including re-positioning carriers or other shadow-boxing, will only further inflame what is already a shooting war (clearly within what realpolitik practitioners would deem Russia's sphere of influence).

A pertinent reference in recent global history: Hungary, 1956--Eisenhower did virtually nothing to support the freedom fighters; a similar situation prevailed in the Prague Spring, Czechoslovakia, 1968. Under Republicans or Democrats, the US has not always come to the aid of liberation movements. The Bay of Pigs may be analogous in this regard, also.

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It must be true, i read it in the paper.

is Ukraine a US Ally? Well, that's why the current government was put in place, the one that was put in place by a right-wing coup backed by certain "Western intelligence agencies" (see if we can guess what they might be), so that Ukraine would become another conveniently situated satellite of the West, though I'm not sure I'd want Ukraine as an ally. Certainly their allegiances have traditionally been pretty flexible, throwing their lot in with the Germans after the Revolution and quite a lot of them welcomed the German "Liberators" in '41, and many fought alongside them.

Did I "dream" the National Elections of 25 May 2014 which returned a reformist President (Petro Poroshenko)? Is he not a "centrist" politician who campaigned on a platform of eradicating corruption? Did he win 54.7% of the Popular vote? Yep... I must have dreamed the whole thing.....

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Russian troops attacked Ukrainian military targets from with in Russia. Mean while Obama golfs

http://www.usatoday....raine/13108615/

Is Ukraine a USA ally or not.

It isnt a black and white conflict in the Ukraine. The country is ex-Soviet, many sections of it were historically part of Russia and a lot of Russians live in the disbuted areas. Against this backdrop the west wishes to ignore that EU membership polarises Ukranian society.

I think all sides should be mature about it and have a peaceful, amicable, divorce. Do we really need 100,000 people dead before the same outcome is achieved?

Russian isn't a weak power that US or NATO can defeat in war. It has nuclear weapons! If we annnoy them enough then many households across the EU will go cold this winter and have no petrol to put in their cars. We also risk solidifying their relationship with the Chinese and Iranians.

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Did I "dream" the National Elections of 25 May 2014 which returned a reformist President (Petro Poroshenko)? Is he not a "centrist" politician who campaigned on a platform of eradicating corruption? Did he win 54.7% of the Popular vote? Yep... I must have dreamed the whole thing.....

No "Centrist" politician (one that was chosen because the West approved of him) would possibly be able to bring the two mutually antagonistic elements together in harmony. From whom did he win 54/7 % of the popular Vote? from those who wanted "closer ties with the West", of course. How many of the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine and Crimea voted for him? it's only those who want what he wants (or was put in place to do as he's instructed by the West) that voted for him.

Let's ignore all the complexities, they're not important right now. the important thing is that poor plucky little Ukraine is being persecuted by a Monster.

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Did I not hear them say that the elected president was pro-russia. Didn't he run away from his job. Isn't he now living in Russia . Or did in dream all of that up.

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LOL.

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Is Ukraine a USA ally or not.

The Ukraine is not part of NATO (yet), thus we have no legal obligation to help them.

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Did I not hear them say that the elected president was pro-russia. Didn't he run away from his job. Isn't he now living in Russia . Or did in dream all of that up.

Yanukovych? Yes, he was the one who was toppled in the coup- er, sorry, I mean, Popular Uprising against a Tyrant.
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Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

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Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

All depends if they are Pro EU. then NO, - but if they are Anti EU they are fascists tyrants and need to be removed etc.... then YES.

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Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

Of course not. Just like any other nation, they have a small share of extremists, but they're marginal. Main parties are just normal parties with normal platforms you see all around civilised world. The most bizarrely extreme are communists, not fascists (though I challenge couch lefties to prove the difference between the two). Ukrainian parliament inherited actual communists from the former, puppet-Russian government. Now the elections are about happen and something tells me there won't be much actual soviets left, hampering Ukrainian democracy in favour of Russian hegemony.

Only current Russian government’s suck-ups and paid shills are spreading the insane, easy to debunk, disinformation about fascists in power.

It's even worse when they offend whole Ukrainian nation by calling them simply fascists. I know how it feels, because Serbs used the same slurs and excuses, same techniques of special and actual war against my country and our neighbouring Bosnia&Herzegovina.

Ukrainians were tired of post-Soviet Russian rule, worried with political reverse in which Russia is today (back to aggressive collectivism combined with Russian hegemony), impoverished by Yanukovich who drained all Ukrainian finances to Russia, keeping a chunk of money for his modest (golden toilet, tens of mllions of US dollars in cash loaded in vans when he fled to Russia etc.) needs...

Maidan movement was started by students who protested against destruction of Ukrainian economy and forceful halting of Ukrainian opening to Europe in favour of returning to USSR, now hidden behind names Russian federation and customs union.

Soon it turned into general uprising because everyone knew and felt on their own skin what goes on in Ukraine. People did not want to go quietly back to gulags.

Russia had few absolutely perfect opportunities to drop the violent strategy and simply start negotiating new, more just relations with new Ukrainian government.

To my own dismay too (my nation shares great deal of history with Ukrainians), Putin chose to try destabilizing Ukraine, so Russia can annex parts (see Crimea) or even whole country, instead of returning full sovereignty to Ukraine and making just business, political and other deals.

The most tragic part is that Russian and Ukrainian are brotherly nations. Literally.

It’s like having two brothers, each owning a home. They’re also first neighbours. And there was long, rich and at times horrifying history going on, but they’re still brothers and understand each other.

Now the Russian brother got the upper hand – not to bother you with the whole chain of historic events – and started belittling the Ukrainian brother, stealing from him and threatening to beat the crap out of him if he ever tries resisting.

No matter how much you love your brother, if he behaves like an ******* for years and shows no intention of coming back to his senses, you’ll have to stand up to him. That’s essentially what happens in Ukraine today.

There’s still time for Russia to stop the attempts to destroy Ukraine and instead of trying to force Ukraine into resurrected USSR starts new chapter of good, sane relations.

Everyone would benefit from that, but that’s precisely why it can’t be – some people don’t want everyone to live happily ever after, they want to boss around even if it means everyone will lose.

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All depends if they are Pro EU. then NO, - but if they are Anti EU they are fascists tyrants and need to be removed etc.... then YES.

But the Admiral (Rhubarb) is saying that the duly elected (recognised by Moscow) government of Ukraine is Pro -EU and yet is STILL Fascist. You cant win anything when faced with such clear ambiguity (just realised that "clear ambiguity" is an oxymoron :unsure2: )

The people voted under the terms of Universal Suffrage, the Eastern Ukrainian, Russian supported, population were threatened NOT to vote - pain of death scenario - by Russian immigrants so just who are the Fascists in Ukraine? The common people, or the criminals and thugs in eastern Ukraine being supplied and emboldened by Putin?

The UK has very large immigrant populations - what would happen if they decided to break away from the UK and declare sovereignty to another nation? Fantastic as it sounds, is it really a million miles away from the future?

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Posted (edited)

Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

yes. Svobododa held major positions. Also the rethoric and mentality is fascist

If you aknowledge the ucraien "elections" you also have to aknowledge eastern Ucraine vote for independence and the Crimean vote.

Also I don`t have any smpathy for anyone who tries to control "their" country with force (aka Ucraien government) and who supresses its inhabitans.

Edited by hellwyr
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If someone is not bothered with at least remotely correct spelling of the very name of the country in question, while claiming understanding of situation, it is safe to assume it must be a troll.

Thank you, hellwyr, but there's no need to pose as pro-Russian with intention to portray them as semi-literate people. There are loads of semi-literates on this Earth who are completely sane and good people. Political dyslexia, on the other hand, is far more serious issue.

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But the Admiral (Rhubarb) is saying that the duly elected (recognised by Moscow) government of Ukraine is Pro -EU and yet is STILL Fascist. You cant win anything when faced with such clear ambiguity (just realised that "clear ambiguity" is an oxymoron :unsure2: )

The people voted under the terms of Universal Suffrage, the Eastern Ukrainian, Russian supported, population were threatened NOT to vote - pain of death scenario - by Russian immigrants so just who are the Fascists in Ukraine? The common people, or the criminals and thugs in eastern Ukraine being supplied and emboldened by Putin?

The UK has very large immigrant populations - what would happen if they decided to break away from the UK and declare sovereignty to another nation? Fantastic as it sounds, is it really a million miles away from the future?

What's ambiguous about whether they are or aren't pro Eu and are or aren't fascist? need there be any correlation between them? you can keep saying "Duly elected" as much as you like, but that doesn't alter the fact that the "Duly elected" Ukrainian govt. came to power as a result of a coup, and that there were significant far-right elements involved in that coup, and that the "Moderate" president who's now in the big chair was put up for the job because foreign powers (spelled CIA) decided that they'd "support" him because he'd do what they wanted him to, which is develop Closer ties with the West. And the Eu is as unimportant as it's always been; surely we all know that the only Western power that has any importance is across the Atlantic.

And for fascists you need look no further than this lot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party).

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now you have convinced me, thank you helen of anoy, this was the best argument I have ever heard, thank you so much for your deep political insight and that you share your infinite wisdom with the likes of me.

'sarcams off'

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yes. Svobododa held major positions. Also the rethoric and mentality is fascist

If you aknowledge the ucraien "elections" you also have to aknowledge eastern Ucraine vote for independence and the Crimean vote.

Also I don`t have any smpathy for anyone who tries to control "their" country with force (aka Ucraien government) and who supresses its inhabitans.

So you have NO sympathy for the thugs in Eastern Ukraine who prevented people from casting their legitimate votes on 25 may 2014 for the Ukrainian parliament? That at least is good news.

The so called "vote" in Crimea was not constitutional under the Ukrainian Constitution, and have not been accepted worldwide. It was a straightforward annexation of a foreign Sovereign Nation's territory by Russia.

NO, I do not have to accept Eastern Ukrainian votes at all - it was illegal, it was controlled, it was basically run by thugs and criminals of Russian extraction because they knew that under the new Pres. in Ukraine their days were numbered. May I suggest you go and live in Eastern Ukraine for a time, see whether or not YOU are suppressed, interrogated and robbed of your possessions so the crime lords can get even richer?

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Do you live in Eastern Ukraine?

Well at least Russia doesnt bomb Crimea, so if I was a Crimean citizen I would be glad that i didnt stay with Ukraine. but of course if CNN and Co tells you that the Ukraine vote was right and that Russia is the devil then it must be true, because the world conists of only two colors black and white. Simple isnt it.

No need to discuss further.

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Posted (edited)

to hell with this i am pushing this big red button labeled "nukes". goodbye everyone! lol

Edited by pbarosso
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Puton is betting Obama is once again all talk.

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Posted (edited)

Puton is betting Obama is once again all talk.

what would you like to see happen, what Action do you want Obama to take? because Obama along with the UK wanted tougher sanctions but the EU France and Germany refused and wouldn't agree because of their interests German energy & exports and French ship building contracts. so a watered down version was agreed and its done nothing.

The EU are dragging their heels. If it wasnt for Obama (America) the Ruskies would have invaded eastern Ukraine, and sent shock waves across europe as the EU stand there open mouthed paralysed by fear. Its thanks to Obama (USA) stance that made the Russians think twice and instead are fighting a proxy war. lets remember the Russians had 120,000 soldiers and equipment ready to invade eastern Ukraine. if Obama was all talk they'd have crossed the border.

Thank God for Obama and the United States of America. someone with balls to take the tough line and stand toe to toe with any threatening nation on this earth. regardless of who they are. that cannot be said about the EU. Germany and France. at least the UK is backing Americas tough approach. The mighty EU caused the problem its about time they stood up and where counted. continually being told on here the EU is a global power, economically strong well wield that power and put Putin's Russia back in their box.

And just to think, a country split east/west, hundreds dead, Airliner shot down 290'odd killed and a diplomatic crisis between proper military powers and it all started with a damn EU association agreement. so much for the EU's Nobel peace prize. what a crock of ****.

Edited by stevewinn
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<snip>

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