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Brian Topp

Do people really want help?

31 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Time and again we have people telling us stories with words in the title of the thread or they had written down asking for help.

Title Examples:

-Haunted House?

-I'm haunted 8 years and i need help.

-Someone help (Haunted radio)

-need help please read

-Is there a haunting in my house?

-My brother, a medium? a fraud? or crazy?

-Being tormented in bed by I don't know what!

-I need help

These were just from the last month.

Now, when people tell us these stories and are really asking us for help or are wanting sympathy? Admiration, respect, or perhaps they just want to vent. Instead members from here are asking inquiries, giving realistic explanations and asked to capture this creature/ghost on camera. This result in most cases where the Person who wrote the story gets offended, claim if they try ti "capture" the being on camera it would rebel or they would just vanish.

It seems the people who write these stories always have some sort of fault in their story, like the person who said something was hammering on the iron door in a cabin and yet they just let it make the noise all night. Or the story woman who claim a man would appear in the same location but never considered capturing it on video.

I always feel that people seem to get worked up by Hollywood movies, such as paranormal activities or back in the 1990's, Blair witch (did you know people stop camping for a while when Blair witch came out) and various other horror movies through the ages that were popular.

I do know most people do not apply common sense when these things happen. The average human do not react will under pressure or when something odd happens. For example, When a giant chunk of frozen roast fell off the freezer (it was a top door freezer) and knocked me out for a good 3 minutes, My ex just stood there asking me over and over if i am ok and didn't call for help.

So, Opinions? Ideas on how to approach the story tellers with out them getting upset.

Edited by Brian Topp
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Posted (edited)

@ Brian: I think it is a little of all you mentioned. Often I find that they don't really want opinions but rather support in the form of unquestioning, unilateral agreement to their unsubstantiated clams.

They don't want to be told that the "auras" they claim to see is nothing more than macular fatigue, tricks of light or, in some cases, a precursor to either a epileptic attack or a weird type of migraine (a form I hear actually involves little to no pain).

Often they want to be told they have a special ability or just want to have their ego stroked by having everyone agree that what they seen was "mysterious" and can't possibly be explained through logic and mundane physics/science.

The human mind can do a lot of weird things and its effects are exacerbated by either ignorance and/or fear/paranoia, etc

Of course those who really don't want to read actual views other than those that dovetail with their own will leave once they find that few will play that game.

Edited by Ryu
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Posted (edited)

Sometimes I think its just for attention and to have somebody answer them, Though saying that, As Stillwaters said, I have posted things only to be dismissed, But tbh, If people can't cope with a bit of criticism, Maybe this isn't the best place to post

Edited by SheWomanCatTypeThing
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That's pretty much it, Ryu.

People often start threads saying they don't have a clue what happened, and then as soon as anyone starts offering up more mundane explanations they suddenly know "for sure" it wasn't that, with nothing at all to back that opinion up.

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There is an all too familiar and predictable pattern.

OP: I have seen/photographed something I cannot identify; what is it (although I know it is genuine ufo/et/alien/ghost/spirit/paranormal and is the best evidence ever)?

Response: Its mundane and explainable.

OP: You are an evil skeptic/debunker - I know that I am right!

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I don't have a problem when people ask questions looking for help. Some of them are really unsure what to do and what's happening. There are too many posters on here attacking these people and there's a lot of it going on, which is so off putting and spoils the actual threads. I've felt sorry for many posters who came on here looking for advice about their paranormal experiences to be confronted by a pack of animals gang up on them as they often do, posting insults and childish clip art.

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It does seem that new posters are drawn here thinking that the explanation they're going to get is going to confirm their experience is supernatural,more than one poster has remarked about why the forum is called Unexplained Mysteries when its full of non believers.

I don't think that is a bad thing that people are looking for rational explanations instead of accepting every sighting or experience is paranormal.

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There's nothing wrong with having a rational view point at all, sometimes you do need someone with that way of thinking. What is wrong here are the gang mentality making fun and throwing insults and personal digs at the new people.

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@ Brian: I think it is a little of all you mentioned. Often I find that they don't really want opinions but rather support in the form of unquestioning, unilateral agreement to their unsubstantiated clams.

They don't want to be told that the "auras" they claim to see is nothing more than macular fatigue, tricks of light or, in some cases, a precursor to either a epileptic attack or a weird type of migraine (a form I hear actually involves little to no pain).

Getting a bit OT, but I've had aura migraines on a handful of occasions. They have never involved any sort of pain, just a weird shimmering effect in my vision that goes away when I lie down in a quiet room. After a while I noticed a pattern that they tend to be set off after prolonged sessions of staring up close at a CRT screen (playing video games for hours or working at a PC with a CRT screen for hours) (thank goodness for LCD screens, I haven't had an aura migraine since CRTs went away).

In my case, it's experiences like that and things like sleep paralysis, night time hallucinations, etc. that lead me away from believing in ghosts and the paranormal when I learned they were natural occurences with natural explanations. I thus try to offer rational explanations for others when they post something I think I have an opinion on.

However, it's very much a mixed bag. Some people on these forums are simply too rude and upfront with their opinions (I admit to being guilty of such myself) by simply scorning posters who ask for an opinion or accuse them of lying or faking or being mentally ill.

But on the other hand, as Brian alluded to in the opening post, some people clearly don't actually want advise or help. Like a lot of people with strange ideas or strange experiences, they put forward their ideas in veiled language. They're simply looking for advice, asklng questions, etc. when it becomes clear after a while they have clearly made up their mind and are convinced they've had a supernatural experience and sometimes their stories become more convoluted and amazing the more they're questions. I'm reminded of someone who posted an experience here that I clearly recognised as classic sleep paralysis. When a couple of us here suggested that's what it was and thus there's nothing to worry about, the story took on a more fantastical turn. Suddenly the event went from their experience to something that happened to multiple people simultaneously, that happened multiple times, etc. People sometimes embellish their stories in order to dismiss the more prosaic explanations.

To be honest, I'm not sure that these forums are useful at all for the vast majority of people who post here. Every so often someone posts an experience and is happy when someone sensibly explains to them that their experience probably has a natural explanation that is nothing to worry about. But those are the exceptions.

Most people who post their experiences here can't or won't be helped by the regulars. Sometimes they are scorned and belittled which doesn't help or are basically accused of being mentally ill. Or they simply aren't interested in calm rational explanations as explained above. Sometimes their threads get swamped by a cacophony of "advice" that simultaneously tells them it's a guardian angel, a demon, the spirit of a loved one, the holy spirit, etc. to perform a wiccan house cleansing ritual, to burn sage and chant some thing, to call a priest and have the house blessed, to call a priest and arrange a full-on exorcism, to sacrifice a goat to Poseidon, to loudly declare to the evil spirits to leave them alone, to ignore the evil spirits as acknowledging them empowers them, that it's not evil spirits at all but a guardian angel they should welcome into their lives, etc.

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It does seem that new posters are drawn here thinking that the explanation they're going to get is going to confirm their experience is supernatural,more than one poster has remarked about why the forum is called Unexplained Mysteries when its full of non believers.

I don't think that is a bad thing that people are looking for rational explanations instead of accepting every sighting or experience is paranormal.

There indeed is the proverbial nail on the head... Just because it may be an unexplained mystery to the witness/OP, it doesn't mean that is is an unexplainable mystery that cannot be explained by objective and rational means.

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From a Moderator point of view the situation can be a bit tricky. On the one hand we see a new member posting about their experiences and asking for advice, while on the other hand we see some replies which aren't at all helpful and the next thing we know the thread has gone downhill and needs cleaning up or in some cases, closed altogether.

While some stories I admit can be extremely bizarre, my own personal belief is to give the story the benefit of the doubt at least to begin with until something more obvious transpires which puts a different light on it.

I think most new members do post in the hope that what they're relaying has some paranormal reason behind it, and some aren't too happy to be told otherwise - being honest here as we do see this happening and have to deal with the fallout. I reckon though some are just genuinely disappointed when rational explanations are provided.

I always think it's best when confronted with a story you find hard to believe, to say nothing in response. Shouting out all kinds of accusations does not help at all and only causes problems which usually ends up with someone hitting the report button. When things have got to that point the thread and discussion is already lost.

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So, Opinions? Ideas on how to approach the story tellers with out them getting upset.

-B.T.

Try putting yourself into their position first. Imagine yourself in their shoes and what you would feel like if you were to have an experience that you didn't understand. What questions from an outside and neutral position can you ask that you would want asked if the events they describe were happening to you.

Ask questions without commentary. If as a poster/personally you feel that there is no God, no paranormal activity, U.f.o.s, Big Foot, (fill in the blank) find out why they do. If they ask for your opinion on God, U.f.o.s or Big foot then you may give your opinion.

Ask for evidence, don't demand proof.This is one of the things that I find funny is when another poster will ask for proof. Proof is substantiated evidence. If a poster had proof they'd be knocking on the Randi Foundation's door not here. example- "Would you be willing to try and get evidence of what you're experiencing?" (this will also allow the reader to know if they want to spend time on the thread without frustration if the poster claims they can't for any numerous reason.) The second part that I find funny is the demand. What degree do any of us hold that would allow the presented evidence to be vetted by means other than opinion. We're not with the poster to see how it was collected nor to see if there was manipulation of the evidence or lack of manipulation. So help them by describing a way to collect evidence. Like putting two cameras in a room or area where unexplained activity is occurring. What kind of camera is easy to use, inexpensive, motion sensitive etc. Put out good information to help them get quality evidence. Maybe they'll be nice and share it and we'll all get to see something that can't easily be explained.

If you feel it's a bid for attention why bother posting especially, to criticize or to point out it's a bid for attention? Negative attention is still attention and if is attention they crave you're giving it to them.

Check your ego at the door. They didn't come here to hear about you, your experiences, your lack of experiences, your beliefs or lack of beliefs. Don't turn the thread around to you, putting someone down is turning the thread to you so that others will think you're funny and pay attention to you and not the thread. They might be seeking answers or advice but they are also dealing with their experience through their perceptions (their belief or lack of belief) if you aren't willing to understand that you haven't checked your ego. Yes they've invited you into their life but it doesn't give you the right to trash the place.

Mabon.

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Granted, social and informational media is great, for all sorts of answers. Quick answers to be sure, I'm thinking. As for me, going online for someone to help with a paranormal issue, much less any issue, would be the last thing I would do. I'm not saying I wont do it at all, but there are ways that one should do first, I think. I feel I have lived and dealt with paranormal situations, I dealt with it offline. In the end, I know I have a slightly strong fascination of it. I go online for info as a hobby. Yes, I come here for fun. I like to think the this particular forum would be the place to enjoy reading other stories and having the fun in telling yours. I don't think one does it for a bid for attention or a need for it be rectified as a end all.

I think it is also great for the different perspectives in the matter. I have posted my experiences in this forum many times before, and I have had varying degrees of what it could be from mundane reasons to paranormal ones, and I can see reasoning behind them all. I would strongly think to come here and belittle what this forum is for is going against what it is. And again, I think sharing stories and answers is enjoyable.

If someone is desperate for answers, I sincerely hope they are finding them elsewhere too. I also hope they are treated fairly too. I think we should all give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

True, there will be criticism and everyone is different in their responses. It's true one is not having a gun to their head to be here. But I think it's disappointing to see the action in a forum to be totally different than what I thought what the forum was about. It's no skin on my nose if I leave, but how long with the forum last then? *Shrugs*

To sum it up: I thought we post here to have fun and gain knowledge in our experiences.

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i think they're mostly stories with no real basis in reality. we see this increase every summer and every school vacation too.

i'm not saying every single accounting on this site has been made up, but i can say that i've not read one that i fully believed yet.

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Posted (edited)

So, Opinions? Ideas on how to approach the story tellers with out them getting upset.

I think to some extent, it's how it's phrased. I've noticed in some threads that an OP will be getting quite upset with how some people are phrasing themselves, and I can make a similar statement phrased differently and not leave them upset about it.

I can understand why some people phrase themselves the way they do- when one has given the same answer a thousand times, it can be difficult not to just be brutally blunt about it. Or it's because that's just their personality, and I've learned that over the years. But new people are often caught off guard by it, and get upset.

I think to some extent, a welcome can go a long way for a new member. Some folks just launch right into a new poster- I try to always give them a welcome to the UM and please read the site rules... Then I launch into whatever my opinion is about the OP itself.

Sometimes, just giving a warning that you are going to be blunt, brutally honest, or have heard the story before and given X opinion to it can help even a harsh statement along. Sometimes giving credentials can help too, like stating that you are into photography before making an analysis of a photo- just because some longer term members know who knows what, does not mean new folks do- and that can lead to some unhappy byplay.

Edit: I do think some people honestly want help. Others honestly want to believe something freaky is going on. Still others are bored and lying. And a rare few seem to use UM as a testing ground for their tales, perhaps to polish them up.

Edited by rashore
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The internet and its tools allow for spontaneous posting of unverified reports/claims, and equally spontaneous response by those wanting to verify/validate - it works both ways.

Being involved in research groups before-internet, and where handling and investigating reports was the norm, I don't think actual responses to claims are any different; its the speed of posting and the widespread inclusion into such that's different - the claim, rational response and subsequent fallout used to happen out of the public gaze.

I have investigated sightings that were clearly simple mis-identifications and you have to note reality even if the witness isn't interested - I recall one wasted evening visiting a UFO witness who excitedly informed me "Its back!", while pointing at Venus, only to angrily refuse to accept I was looking at the same bright celestial object as him. I have had investigators from reputable groups tell me I was a lunatic for having encounter experiences myself. I can think of former colleagues in the research arena who dismissed all alien reports as aliens did not exist - except for the ones they claimed to be in contact with...

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-B.T.

Try putting yourself into their position first. Imagine yourself in their shoes and what you would feel like if you were to have an experience that you didn't understand. What questions from an outside and neutral position can you ask that you would want asked if the events they describe were happening to you.

I am going in with an open mind and I always the only issue is a lot of people who post these stories with waking up or falling a sleep and they do not know about sleep paralysis and hypnagogia. I suffer from it and have these experiences at least once a week. It is such a horrifying experience, especially when it happened at the first time.

Ask questions without commentary. If as a poster/personally you feel that there is no God, no paranormal activity, U.f.o.s, Big Foot, (fill in the blank) find out why they do. If they ask for your opinion on God, U.f.o.s or Big foot then you may give your opinion.
I have numerous times, if you notice i rarely go to other parts of this forum. I believe in ghosts, I just don't believe in what gets presented. I take every evidence and mull it over, from my years of experience most cases are either hoax, user error or machine error. I do ask questions, Perhaps i would ask them if they want a skeptical view instead.
Ask for evidence, don't demand proof.This is one of the things that I find funny is when another poster will ask for proof. Proof is substantiated evidence. If a poster had proof they'd be knocking on the Randi Foundation's door not here. example- "Would you be willing to try and get evidence of what you're experiencing?" (this will also allow the reader to know if they want to spend time on the thread without frustration if the poster claims they can't for any numerous reason.) The second part that I find funny is the demand. What degree do any of us hold that would allow the presented evidence to be vetted by means other than opinion. We're not with the poster to see how it was collected nor to see if there was manipulation of the evidence or lack of manipulation. So help them by describing a way to collect evidence. Like putting two cameras in a room or area where unexplained activity is occurring. What kind of camera is easy to use, inexpensive, motion sensitive etc. Put out good information to help them get quality evidence. Maybe they'll be nice and share it and we'll all get to see something that can't easily be explained.
The times i ask for proof is either A) they claim to have caught something on a device and never uploaded it. B) If they claim to get the same visitation of the ghost every night (because i would love to see it) or C) They claim to have some sort of power and brag about it.

If you feel it's a bid for attention why bother posting especially, to criticize or to point out it's a bid for attention? Negative attention is still attention and if is attention they crave you're giving it to them.

No, I don't. If i Saru could, I would ask him to remove my likes counts, remove my post count. These things don't matter to me. I do not need attention, I have enough from various other locations (youtube, my gf, my pets etc)
Check your ego at the door. They didn't come here to hear about you, your experiences, your lack of experiences, your beliefs or lack of beliefs. Don't turn the thread around to you, putting someone down is turning the thread to you so that others will think you're funny and pay attention to you and not the thread. They might be seeking answers or advice but they are also dealing with their experience through their perceptions (their belief or lack of belief) if you aren't willing to understand that you haven't checked your ego. Yes they've invited you into their life but it doesn't give you the right to trash the place.

Mabon.

I really hope you not directing this to be but as skepticals general. I am no saint, I admit that. I have called people out on things and even challenged people. As pointed out by JesseCuster, How many threads have been steered off with people posting it is various different entities or from sides or aliens.

I will take what you said with consideration.

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Brian Topp,

I think there has been a misunderstanding, I did not mean these remarks to you personally. I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I did not read that you specifically wanted advice but advice for the community. For that I heartily apologize that it seemed I meant you did these thing. In the posts you make I do not see you behave in an ill mannered way.

I am going in with an open mind and I always the only issue is a lot of people who post these stories with waking up or falling a sleep and they do not know about sleep paralysis and hypnagogia. I suffer from it and have these experiences at least once a week. It is such a horrifying experience, especially when it happened at the first time.

It is difficult sometimes to present evidence about sleep paralysis, I post about it a too and it is a horrifying experience. Fear is one of the things I try to consider when dealing with someone who sounds like they are having an SP episode. One of the things that seems (in my experience) to help the person investigate if it applies to them is letting them know that two events may be happening at the same time. For sake of argument- A person has an SP episode but later while wide awake sees a U.f.o.. These two things could happen on the same day but don't have anything to do with each other. This for me is a part of the process of helping them determine for themselves what is going on.

I have numerous times, if you notice i rarely go to other parts of this forum. I believe in ghosts, I just don't believe in what gets presented. I take every evidence and mull it over, from my years of experience most cases are either hoax, user error or machine error. I do ask questions, Perhaps i would ask them if they want a skeptical view instead.

In this I am in the same boat as you. I am a person who believes but am skeptical in my approach and disbelieve some of the stories presented here as well. I usually will give someone the benefit of the doubt unless it's something so completely outlandish (IMO) or they become hostile to polite questions. I usually declare (and have thought about getting a rubber stamp which states) I look for mundane answers first, if those don't work escalate as needed. I also ask them to look to their own faith as guidance before offering, smudging or salting. They have to live their lives not me. If they are X belief and I am of another flavor my ways or views aren't going to make them comfortable.

The times i ask for proof is either A) they claim to have caught something on a device and never uploaded it. B) If they claim to get the same visitation of the ghost every night (because i would love to see it) or C) They claim to have some sort of power and brag about it.

No, I don't. If i Saru could, I would ask him to remove my likes counts, remove my post count. These things don't matter to me. I do not need attention, I have enough from various other locations (youtube, my gf, my pets etc)

That does get annoying when the evidence gets erased, dog ate it or what ever, I let them know that piece of evidence has to be discounted as anecdotal because there is nothing there to support that claim yet, if the event is on going it would be great to try and see if they can capture another image.

I really hope you not directing this to be but as skepticals general. I am no saint, I admit that. I have called people out on things and even challenged people. As pointed out by JesseCuster, How many threads have been steered off with people posting it is various different entities or from sides or aliens.

I will take what you said with consideration.

Who is a saint? We do all have limits.

Again, sorry about the confusion. Those comments weren't directed at you. I would like to see the standard of Q&A to new posters or older members who've had an experience they want to share or are curious about to feel that they can do so without being attacked, condescended to or made fun of because they feel they've had an encounter or experience they don't know how to relate to or even begin to understand. That is what seasoned people should be doing, making it easier for someone who is scared less afraid and able to open up about their experience. Help them find out what is going on things to check for like faulty wiring, mold, SP, carbon monoxide poisoning, illness which can be mistaken for paranormal influences so if these things get ruled out, for me that's when the fun begins.

Regards,

Mabon.

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I am going in with an open mind and I always the only issue is a lot of people who post these stories with waking up or falling a sleep and they do not know about sleep paralysis and hypnagogia. I suffer from it and have these experiences at least once a week. It is such a horrifying experience, especially when it happened at the first time.

Your posts are really cool and rational. I think you're a polite sensible poster and at times your skeptic replies have had a calming effect on tsome people that come across frightened of their paranormal real lives.

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I know my way of coming at things like this, and life in general is to remove the human element, look at it like a math problem and don't allow your own emotions to factor into figuring out the situation. It leads to a dispassionate answer that if someone responds emotionally to, shows that they had a motive behind the question besides finding an answer

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I would like to see the standard of Q&A to new posters or older members who've had an experience they want to share or are curious about to feel that they can do so without being attacked, condescended to or made fun of because they feel they've had an encounter or experience they don't know how to relate to or even begin to understand. That is what seasoned people should be doing, making it easier for someone who is scared less afraid and able to open up about their experience.

Exactly! It can take a lot of courage for someone to come and share their experiences. They don't expect to be ridiculed for it when they've come to ask for help.

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So, the forum rules need changing? If not, then why aren't those who are ridiculing being reported and dealt with?

Yes, I'm being the devil's avocado (yum), but I think this is being beaten up a bit. Or a lot..

What irks me a bit is that there ARE those who troll this forum, be they genuine trolls, schoolkids, basement dwellers, whatever. There ARE also those who come here saying they want opinions, and then get angry (or simply run for it) when mundane explanations, or simple questions, are offered politely. I'd wager I can find more examples of those, than of people being chased off when they have a genuine mystery to bring here.

I'll happily admit I probably have a lower threshold for stories accompanied by images where either the story and image do not match, I can instantly see fakery or the mundane answer, or where the claimant becomes evasive when asked perfectly reasonable questions (eg "why don't you post the original..?"). Earlier it was suggested that folks like me, who do (really!) have a lot of experience with imagery, post processing and recognising fakery should perhaps offer our 'credentials', but I'm afraid that doesn't work on a forum where most would rightly prefer some degree of anonymity (and some would happily lie their backsides off about their expertise anyway..). I'd rather simply walk the walk..

Anyway, being, and having been, a member at many similar forums, I think UM has it just about exactly right. If you come here with a genuine story asking for help rather than making outlandish claims, and if you listen and address questions asked of you, then I don't think you will receive a harsh reception at all. And if anyone like that does get a bad reception, then you guys who are saying it happens too often should be reporting it...

I'd be interested to see some examples where the harsh reception applied, and let's look at whether the claimant perhaps brought it upon themselves...

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Just scroll down the 'Sightings and Experiences' section ChrLzs......plenty of examples there.

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So, the forum rules need changing? If not, then why aren't those who are ridiculing being reported and dealt with?

The forum has always had rules addressing rude behavior and those who are guilty of it are reported and dealt with, but the focus here should be on preventing the problem rather than on dishing out punishments. We are forever telling people to be civil and courteous to new members.

On a general note:

Yes we do sometimes see new members joining just to mess people around with a tall tale or who refuse to listen to anyone who doesn't agree with them, but at the same time we also see existing members who simply assume that every newcomer who posts a story here is one of those people. If someone with a genuine story to tell receives the same type of response as someone who is trolling then they aren't likely to stick around too long.

The best advice is to treat a new member as you would want to be treated yourself if it was you joining the forum to post about your experiences. If you believe someone is trolling then hit 'report' and let the moderators address it, attacking or ridiculing the poster is not the answer.

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