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Obama’s experiment goes badly wrong

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A stunning unfolding of international crises, from Iraq to Ukraine to Syria to Gaza, has prompted some less-than-edifying Washington debate: It’s all President Obama’s fault. No, it’s not his fault at all.

It would be a pity if partisan fervor kept us from learning from recent events, because in fact the available lessons are stark: We have witnessed as close to a laboratory experiment on the effects of U.S. disengagement as the real world is ever likely to provide.

Obama openly and deliberately adopted a strategy, not of isolationism, but of gradual withdrawal, especially from Europe and the Middle East. He argued that America should concentrate on “nation-building here at home.” He espoused a pivot to Asia, on the grounds that the Pacific region was the world’s most dynamic and deserving of U.S. military and diplomatic attention. (“Here, we see the future,” Obama told Australia’s parliament.)

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Posted (edited)

A very well written and thoughtful look at what happens when a vacuum is created - by anyone - in world power structures.

edited for spelling

Edited by and then
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Whether the results of this "experiment" are positive or negative depends on the point of view. Myself, I favor withdrawal. We should fix up our homeland before going forth to help others again. Fix the borders. Fix our problem with inner city poverty culture. Fix our banking and corporate systems. Fix our reliance on foreign oil. Fix our crippling entitlement system's effect on our budget.

I hate to be unsympathetic, but let these other nations take care of their own business. If they become an actual threat, then act.

Obama has had many issues during his presidency, but withdrawing from the rest of the world, IMHO, is not one of them.

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Posted (edited)

See...from my point of view, he hasn't disconnected nearly enough...it's not from a lack of trying, I tell ya that.

Yemen drones

Libya "air support"

Pakistani drones

Failed attempt to draw the public into Syria's civil war (but pretty sure we "accidentally" armed the rebels)

Trying to get involved in Ukraine now

Eruptions that will cause us to get involved in Iraq (again)

and let's not forget our open door to central and south America...

In my opinion...we are still WAY too involved in places we need not be involved in.

How about....we repair or replace the thousands of bridges that are downgraded or on the verge of collapse?

How about we expand infrastructure in order to more efficiently move goods and improve commerce?

How about instead of giving illegal alien "minors" (I say that and burst into laughter) money and benefits we give it to the legal children of citizens of this country?

How about we make it so Veterans can just go see a doctor (any doctor) and the bill goes to the Pentagon?

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

We have no business being involved anywhere till our own closet is cleaned up...and I do not really care who can find empty arguments against that...

Edited by Jeremiah65
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Whether the results of this "experiment" are positive or negative depends on the point of view. Myself, I favor withdrawal. We should fix up our homeland before going forth to help others again. Fix the borders. Fix our problem with inner city poverty culture. Fix our banking and corporate systems. Fix our reliance on foreign oil. Fix our crippling entitlement system's effect on our budget.

I hate to be unsympathetic, but let these other nations take care of their own business. If they become an actual threat, then act.

Obama has had many issues during his presidency, but withdrawing from the rest of the world, IMHO, is not one of them.

So you're voting for Rand Paul, right?

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So you're voting for Rand Paul, right?

I am very much reading what he is writing. That is all I'll say about that for now.

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Posted (edited)

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

What cracks me up is that Afghanistan gets state of the art roads and bridges and infrastructure (on my dime) and the US highway system is turning into "dirt roads", and THEY freaking attacked US!! (Or, rather, protected those that attacked us.)

Edited by DieChecker
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I hate saying this but if another guy was president there would still be these problems.

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What cracks me up is that Afghanistan gets state of the art roads and bridges and infrastructure (on my dime) and the US highway system is turning into "dirt roads", and THEY freaking attacked US!! (Or, rather, protected those that attacked us.)

I hope I'm not the only one who's angry that Osama bin Laden is winning. That was exactly what he was counting on and he was right. Our policy is always so asinine and counterproductive, I think bin Laden recognized that and blew the asininity and counterproductivity of it into the stratosphere. His belief in Allah was surely reaffirmed when the US invaded Iraq.

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Posted (edited)

I hope I'm not the only one who's angry that Osama bin Laden is winning. That was exactly what he was counting on and he was right. Our policy is always so asinine and counterproductive, I think bin Laden recognized that and blew the asininity and counterproductivity of it into the stratosphere. His belief in Allah was surely reaffirmed when the US invaded Iraq.

Osama accomplished exactly what we wanted. The US fell for it.

edit: the people fell for it.

Edited by The Silver Thong
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How is this an experiment? Who didn't know exactly what was going to happen?

There is nothing surprising about them fighting over the area. Why would they have stopped just because we left?

We didn't withdraw because Osama bin fishfood made us. We didn't withdraw because whoever it is we are fighting is too tough. There is one reason, and one reason alone, that we withdrew. The people demanded it. Just like they demanded withdrawal from Vietnam.

Well, they got it. And, unsurprisingly, what was predicted came to pass. The people that have been fighting for centuries before we had anything to do with it, for the decades we did have anything to do with it, and probably for a few more decades to come until they deplete the resources they have and make enough enemies out of their allies to not get anything more, kept right on fighting.

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How is this an experiment? Who didn't know exactly what was going to happen?

There is nothing surprising about them fighting over the area. Why would they have stopped just because we left?

We didn't withdraw because Osama bin fishfood made us. We didn't withdraw because whoever it is we are fighting is too tough. There is one reason, and one reason alone, that we withdrew. The people demanded it. Just like they demanded withdrawal from Vietnam.

Well, they got it. And, unsurprisingly, what was predicted came to pass. The people that have been fighting for centuries before we had anything to do with it, for the decades we did have anything to do with it, and probably for a few more decades to come until they deplete the resources they have and make enough enemies out of their allies to not get anything more, kept right on fighting.

Yep...Saddam kept this all in check with an iron fist and that is the ONLY way to keep this stuff in check. These folks have so much hate for one another in them the only way to keep them in their place is to be worse than the people they hate.

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See...from my point of view, he hasn't disconnected nearly enough...it's not from a lack of trying, I tell ya that.

Yemen drones

Libya "air support"

Pakistani drones

Failed attempt to draw the public into Syria's civil war (but pretty sure we "accidentally" armed the rebels)

Trying to get involved in Ukraine now

Eruptions that will cause us to get involved in Iraq (again)

and let's not forget our open door to central and south America...

In my opinion...we are still WAY too involved in places we need not be involved in.

How about....we repair or replace the thousands of bridges that are downgraded or on the verge of collapse?

How about we expand infrastructure in order to more efficiently move goods and improve commerce?

How about instead of giving illegal alien "minors" (I say that and burst into laughter) money and benefits we give it to the legal children of citizens of this country?

How about we make it so Veterans can just go see a doctor (any doctor) and the bill goes to the Pentagon?

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

We have no business being involved anywhere till our own closet is cleaned up...and I do not really care who can find empty arguments against that...

How about we get the House to go along with any of those ideas, which are pretty good?

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How about we get the House to go along with any of those ideas, which are pretty good?

I agree.

One problem that haunts the idea of "investing in the USA" is the failed stimulus package for "shovel ready jobs"...but that is another topic.

We have real problems here at home and we could re-direct a LOT of money to deal with those things...but this would require us drawing back from the world stage and focusing on our own recovery and "nation building". They are accusing Obama of this and failing but what I was trying to point out is...he's really not doing that.

The underlying poison here is the corporate agenda...they want that foreign aid to places that hate us...it greases the palms of the leadership in these places and opens the door for the mega corporations to pilfer and plunder their resources on the cheap.

Doesn't matter if it is a Republican or a Democrat at the helm of this ship, the navigators are the Oligarchy and they decide where our attention and our money goes...

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I believe that we should have a military presence in many countries. We need Marines to guard our embassies and consulates, don't we? That should be the extent of our presence.

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There is one reason, and one reason alone, that we withdrew. The people demanded it. Just like they demanded withdrawal from Vietnam.

And, Checkmate. It's pretty embarrassing falling right into the hole your enemy digs for you, especially after he tells you he dug it.

'How to kill a giant." by Osama bin Laden

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While Osama was hiding in a military town in Pakistan, Bush was selling F-16s to Pakistan.

[media=]

[/media]

How do you run a convention on a record of failure? Invoke fear.

How much did the war in Iraq and all those "supplementals" cost again? And for what? A failed state on the brink of chaos. Mission accomplished.

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The MIC has made so much money from war, death and destruction...it boggles the mind. Mercenary organizations, weapon makers, intel gathering...all for profit!

They got their wish with the never ending "wars". The MIC and it's cronies and fans have successfully secured a never ending profit stream.

I get so aggravated with how things get fed to the public these days. Always a "cause" to be championed...a helpless victim to be saved...and...up till recently, the masses generally swallowed the tales hook line and sinker. The truth is, for every "good deed" the GOV wants to champion...there is some snake behind the curtain reeling in astounding profits.

Oh well...

Let's just fix our cr@p and let the others out there worry about their own cr@p...that's my point of view..

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We can't ignore over how often we make someone else's crap our crap. This nonsense overseas is our crap, according to every shill Republican and Democrat in the Congress. For instance, our red headed stepchild in the Middle East causes all kinds of windfalls and profits for the MIC, if that's the real problem here. And I hear you saying stuff like this, and I see Bama agreeing with it, and on paper I couldn't agree more. But when it comes time to apply the good theory and well-reasoned logic, we ignore the elephant in the room.. We go find something else of far less importance to complain about.

The problem is the Executive Branch of this government, including any problems that might be caused by the Military Industrial Complex, of which the Executive Branch is the most important part of. If we wanted to cut this crap overseas we could do it overnight with a phone call. It's not that difficult. And Lockheed Martin can't do a damn thing about it.

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Posted (edited)

And, Checkmate. It's pretty embarrassing falling right into the hole your enemy digs for you, especially after he tells you he dug it.

'How to kill a giant." by Osama bin Laden

Vo Nguyen Giap specifically planned the Tet Offensive to make it seem as if the North Vietnamese were stronger than ever and their brave soldiers would fight and die for their country against other soldiers, like good soldiers do. He studied American behavior and culture specifically to find a way to do this. He found it and basically played the underdog being trampled over by the evil empire standing back up and fighting back. Three weeks later, the doves outnumbered the hawks and began the real mass protests against the war. With North Vietnam at their weakest after the sound loss of both personnel and resources during the Tet Offensive, they were all but handed victory in the form of peace talks.

Osama bin Laden sent suicide bombers to hijack airplanes full of civilians and strike civilian targets, without a complete idea of what the actual damage would be (he was hoping for at least several hundred in the planes, and maybe a few hundred more in the buildings, but he never thought, just as no one else ever thought, the WTC towers would collapse). He didn't know jack monkey squat about American culture. His own son told him that he had screwed up and the Americans were now going to come gunning for him and the Taliban. Bin Laden called him pessimistic. He referred to his attack as a message to the world, to his soldiers as martyrs, and to inspire Muslims to join his holy war. He couldn't have antagonized the Americans any more if he had actually tried and spent the next ten years, for all intents and purposes, under house arrest.

Osama was a self-deluded idiot who thought suicide bombing was a scalable tactic. It never even occurred to him to get the American people on his side, and had anyone suggested it, he would likely have taken it about as seriously as he would have taken to the idea of peace negotiations.

And no, I don't believe him for a second when he said that he was hoping America would ask for peace negotiations after the 911 bombings. Even if it was true, it would only reinforce my point that he didn't know anything about the culture he just jabbed in the eye.

Edited by aquatus1

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Vo Nguyen Giap specifically planned the Tet Offensive to make it seem as if the North Vietnamese were stronger than ever and their brave soldiers would fight and die for their country against other soldiers, like good soldiers do. He studied American behavior and culture specifically to find a way to do this. He found it and basically played the underdog being trampled over by the evil empire standing back up and fighting back. Three weeks later, the doves outnumbered the hawks and began the real mass protests against the war. With North Vietnam at their weakest after the sound loss of both personnel and resources during the Tet Offensive, they were all but handed victory in the form of peace talks.

Osama bin Laden sent suicide bombers to hijack airplanes full of civilians and strike civilian targets, without a complete idea of what the actual damage would be (he was hoping for at least several hundred in the planes, and maybe a few hundred more in the buildings, but he never thought, just as no one else ever thought, the WTC towers would collapse). He didn't know jack monkey squat about American culture. His own son told him that he had screwed up and the Americans were now going to come gunning for him and the Taliban. Bin Laden called him pessimistic. He referred to his attack as a message to the world, to his soldiers as martyrs, and to inspire Muslims to join his holy war. He couldn't have antagonized the Americans any more if he had actually tried and spent the next ten years, for all intents and purposes, under house arrest.

Osama was a self-deluded idiot who thought suicide bombing was a scalable tactic. It never even occurred to him to get the American people on his side, and had anyone suggested it, he would likely have taken it about as seriously as he would have taken to the idea of peace negotiations.

And no, I don't believe him for a second when he said that he was hoping America would ask for peace negotiations after the 911 bombings. Even if it was true, it would only reinforce my point that he didn't know anything about the culture he just jabbed in the eye.

Not being the equivalent of Giap doesn't mean he doesn't know jack monkey squat. You citing certain things he said while not believing others....that's your personal opinion and I don't have to share your beliefs. You can cherry pick until you whittle down to "monkey squat" who knows nothing about the "culture" but his goals should be common knowledge by now. He knew enough about Bush 41 to take a calculated risk about Bush 43 and he bet right. He wasn't waiting for Clinton to leave office because he was scared of Clinton. Please.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/

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We can't ignore over how often we make someone else's crap our crap. This nonsense overseas is our crap, according to every shill Republican and Democrat in the Congress. For instance, our red headed stepchild in the Middle East causes all kinds of windfalls and profits for the MIC, if that's the real problem here. And I hear you saying stuff like this, and I see Bama agreeing with it, and on paper I couldn't agree more. But when it comes time to apply the good theory and well-reasoned logic, we ignore the elephant in the room.. We go find something else of far less importance to complain about.

The problem is the Executive Branch of this government, including any problems that might be caused by the Military Industrial Complex, of which the Executive Branch is the most important part of. If we wanted to cut this crap overseas we could do it overnight with a phone call. It's not that difficult. And Lockheed Martin can't do a damn thing about it.

Can you imagine the howls if Obama acted independently of the Senate or House?

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I agree.

One problem that haunts the idea of "investing in the USA" is the failed stimulus package for "shovel ready jobs"...but that is another topic.

We have real problems here at home and we could re-direct a LOT of money to deal with those things...but this would require us drawing back from the world stage and focusing on our own recovery and "nation building". They are accusing Obama of this and failing but what I was trying to point out is...he's really not doing that.

The underlying poison here is the corporate agenda...they want that foreign aid to places that hate us...it greases the palms of the leadership in these places and opens the door for the mega corporations to pilfer and plunder their resources on the cheap.

Doesn't matter if it is a Republican or a Democrat at the helm of this ship, the navigators are the Oligarchy and they decide where our attention and our money goes...

It's this kind of think that makes people label Saul Alinsky a dangerous radical. You & he aren't that far apart.

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Can you imagine the howls if Obama acted independently of the Senate or House?

I thought he was? :(:( :(

Didn't the SCotUS find he had overstepped on several issues?

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Can you imagine the howls if Obama acted independently of the Senate or House?

OMG you made my ear hurt. :) I can only agree though if he's acting independently in a way that the Republicans actually care about. Not silly stuff that's not important to either party, like bombing Libya or something.

I tried to offer some help for the impeachers, I suggested sending in a gorgeous intern for some work on the Presidential staff. If anything really really BAD happened to the country, you know, a little bit of that ooze got on her dress, those fresh organisms would ship straight to the basement of RNC HQ. We'll have Obama either sending his hair follicles through the mail or testifying before a grand jury in no time.

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