After the Arab Spring

[questionmark]

After the uprisings of 2011, the Arab world seemed to be moving towards democracy, but the recent resurgence of strongmen have illustrated just how deep certain divides still are -- and how desperate people are for stability.

In the tense build-up to the 2011 uprisings, Arabs seemed to be turning away from dictatorship. Poll after poll showed that more Egyptians, Jordanians and Moroccans believed democracy was the best form of government than did Americans or, say, Poles. But "democracy" in the abstract could mean just about anything as long as it was positive. It was one thing to believe in democracy and quite another to practice it.

In Egypt, the loss of faith in not just democracy, but in the very notion of politics, was particularly striking. A not insignificant number of Egyptians backed the military coup of July 3, 2013, and then turned away from -- or, worse, embraced -- the mass killing of their countrymen on August 14, 2013. More than 600 were killed in mere hours, as security forces moved to disperse Muslim Brotherhood supporters from two protest camps in Cairo. This happened exactly a year ago -- and will remain a dark blot on the country's history. It, in a sense, is what the Arab Spring had managed to unleash -- not just chaos but something darker.

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[+and-then]

The "something darker" the article refers to being unleashed was the MB. Democracy and Islam cannot long coexist.

[questionmark]

The "something darker" the article refers to being unleashed was the MB. Democracy and Islam cannot long coexist.

Well, Turkey seems to deny you. Then there are stable democracies like Malaysia and the Maldive Islands that have been around for longer than most of their South and Middle American counterparts..

[acidhead]

Well, Turkey seems to deny you. Then there are stable democracies like Malaysia and the Maldive Islands that have been around for longer than most of their South and Middle American counterparts..

Indonesia

[questionmark]

Indonesia

forgot that one.

[+and-then]

Well, Turkey seems to deny you. Then there are stable democracies like Malaysia and the Maldive Islands that have been around for longer than most of their South and Middle American counterparts..

They have Islamic populations - not governance. And I predict Erdog will have Turkey sharia compliant in a decade or less.

[Skep B]

After the Arab Spring

African Summer?

[acidhead]

They have Islamic populations - not governance. And I predict Erdog will have Turkey sharia compliant in a decade or less.

Ha... you're grasping at straws!

How long do you predict Indonesia has before theyre sharia compliant? The fourth largest population on the planet (240million) with 87% religiously muslim. FRY, the indonesians just elected, over whelmingly I'll add, a western style socialist who attends heavy metal concerts. His favorite hm band is Metallica. No dhimmi there AT.

Seems your narrative only applies to border nations to Israel. Everywhere else it's coming apart at the seams.

This isn't a religious dispute in Israel/Palestine. ...... It's only too obvious when you step back and listen to concerns from nations all around the world that it's a property issue.

Anyhow.... back to your extremism completely ignoring reality.

[questionmark]

Ha... you're grasping at straws!

How long do you predict Indonesia has before theyre sharia compliant? The fourth largest population on the planet (240million) with 87% religiously muslim. FRY, the indonesians just elected, over whelmingly I'll add, a western style socialist who attends heavy metal concerts. His favorite hm band is Metallica. No dhimmi there AT.

Seems your narrative only applies to border nations to Israel. Everywhere else it's coming apart at the seams.

This isn't a religious dispute in Israel/Palestine. ...... It's only too obvious when you step back and listen to concerns from nations all around the world that it's a property issue.

Anyhow.... back to your extremism completely ignoring reality.

His narrative applies mostly to the ME where the concept of nation is quite irrelevant but the concept of tribe all important. That has little to do with Islam.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

I expected violence after Libya and Egypt 'dictators' lost power. The western world overlooked the fact that those countries are almost ruled by tribes which were controled by those 'dictators'. Now they all ( tribes ) desire to get to power and feel they have all rights to do that. In Egypt there was legally elected government but it was soon overthrown and those who did it have done far worse crimes then Mubarak has done for all time he was in power. People of Egypt should ask them self should they allow the same b******* who sold their country's resources and destroyed economy to rule now. Only question now is will there ever be peace and how long it will last.

[+and-then]

Ha... you're grasping at straws!

How long do you predict Indonesia has before theyre sharia compliant? The fourth largest population on the planet (240million) with 87% religiously muslim. FRY, the indonesians just elected, over whelmingly I'll add, a western style socialist who attends heavy metal concerts. His favorite hm band is Metallica. No dhimmi there AT.

Seems your narrative only applies to border nations to Israel. Everywhere else it's coming apart at the seams.

This isn't a religious dispute in Israel/Palestine. ...... It's only too obvious when you step back and listen to concerns from nations all around the world that it's a property issue.

Anyhow.... back to your extremism completely ignoring reality.

I'll give you Indonesia as the exception to prove the rule. But Turkey? Can you admit that Erdogan has been obviously, forcefully retreating from democratic values in an attempt to Islamize the government there? Probably not. And AH if you genuinely believe that Israel Palestine is just a land dispute then you have my sympathy. These leaders REGULARLY invoke their god and their scripture when they speak of destroying Israel and why it is necessary and even a good thing. So tell it to someone who cares to listen to leftist fables.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

from the article: "In the tense build-up to the 2011 uprisings, Arabs seemed to be turning away from dictatorship."

I would insert the words AMERICAN PUPPET RUN - in front of "dictatorship".

Ya, they don't like that anymore;.

[meryt-tetisheri]

I expected violence after Libya and Egypt 'dictators' lost power. The western world overlooked the fact that those countries are almost ruled by tribes which were controled by those 'dictators'. Now they all ( tribes ) desire to get to power and feel they have all rights to do that. In Egypt there was legally elected government but it was soon overthrown and those who did it have done far worse crimes then Mubarak has done for all time he was in power. People of Egypt should ask them self should they allow the same b******* who sold their country's resources and destroyed economy to rule now. Only question now is will there ever be peace and how long it will last.

Unlike Libya Egypt is not a tribal society, it has been a sedentary society since millennia. As for the question about allowing "the **** who sold their country's resources and destroyed economy to rule", they did ask themselves this question & found the answer: they ousted him on July 3rd 2013

[RoofGardener]

....

This isn't a religious dispute in Israel/Palestine. ...... It's only too obvious when you step back and listen to concerns from nations all around the world that it's a property issue.

Anyhow.... back to your extremism completely ignoring reality.

Hmmm... how about if we "step back" and listen to the HAMAS constitution ? (I assume you'd accept that HAMAS are.... somewhat ... involved in the region ? )

Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

........

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day......

OK.... no religious factors THERE. Nothing to see.... move one.......

[questionmark]

I'll give you Indonesia as the exception to prove the rule. But Turkey? Can you admit that Erdogan has been obviously, forcefully retreating from democratic values in an attempt to Islamize the government there? Probably not. And AH if you genuinely believe that Israel Palestine is just a land dispute then you have my sympathy. These leaders REGULARLY invoke their god and their scripture when they speak of destroying Israel and why it is necessary and even a good thing. So tell it to someone who cares to listen to leftist fables.

In most democratic societies sooner or later the ayatollahs get to power and start passing their view of the world as law, that applies to all countries including Israel (where the government is dependent on the Torah thumpers) and the USA. As long as that is self correcting I see no problem with that.

The problem starts when a country becomes the private farm of a family or a tribe. And that would be the case in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Qatar, Oman and the Emirates. But no matter what religion, there would not be much difference as historically, unless being part of a greater empire (i.e. Greece, Rome, Ottoman) they always acted like that and when part of one they had their feuds against the empire. And that about 1000 years before any Islam came around.

Then there are a few exceptions to the rule like Lebanon or Egypt, where instead of along tribal lines they are also religious lines... which tends to be about the same thing... just the definition of tribe changed to what they profess on Sunday (or Friday or Saturday).

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Unlike Libya Egypt is not a tribal society, it has been a sedentary society since millennia. As for the question about allowing "the **** who sold their country's resources and destroyed economy to rule", they did ask themselves this question & found the answer: they ousted him on July 3rd 2013

Thanks for correcting me there, no tribes but what we see today, all the problems in Egypt are caused by conflicting groups who feel that their rights are being denied. And they indeed are, Egypt 'sacked' Mubarak but they also 'sacked' first democratic government after him, jailing people massively, killings. Military on the streets, talking about democracy? Egypt military officials have long history of betraying their country, why should i expect them to fight for Egypt today? Let me tell you, Egypt was better before this spring. It will take God knows how long for people to get back to normal life there.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Thanks for correcting me there, no tribes but what we see today, all the problems in Egypt are caused by conflicting groups who feel that their rights are being denied. And they indeed are, Egypt 'sacked' Mubarak but they also 'sacked' first democratic government after him, jailing people massively, killings. Military on the streets, talking about democracy? Egypt military officials have long history of betraying their country, why should i expect them to fight for Egypt today? Let me tell you, Egypt was better before this spring. It will take God knows how long for people to get back to normal life there.

The "first democratic government" is a slogan repeated often in the media & is based on an assumption that the elections which brought Mursi & MB to power were fair, un-rigged, or characterized by wide-spread voter bribery, it wasn't. Another assumption is that the said government had the service of country & people as its main objective, & not just a grab for power, it didn't. If Egypt was betrayed by anyone, it was by the MB not the army. There were enough valid reasons to push millions of Egyptians to demonstrate demanding the departure of Mursi while asking the army to intervene. Millions again demonstrated on 3rd of July to give Sisi & the army the mandate to put an end to MB & affiliates' terrorism. Look at the neighbors of Egypt: Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan..you will see the fate that Egypt barely escaped, thanks to its army. The Egyptian army did not betray Egypt, it saved it & the vast majority of Egyptians are grateful & proud of their army. As for Mubarak, 30 years are too long for a ruler to stay in power. The seeds of many of Egypt's troubles now were sown during his rule. It was time for him to step aside.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

The "first democratic government" is a slogan repeated often in the media & is based on an assumption that the elections which brought Mursi & MB to power were fair, un-rigged, or characterized by wide-spread voter bribery, it wasn't. Another assumption is that the said government had the service of country & people as its main objective, & not just a grab for power, it didn't. If Egypt was betrayed by anyone, it was by the MB not the army. There were enough valid reasons to push millions of Egyptians to demonstrate demanding the departure of Mursi while asking the army to intervene. Millions again demonstrated on 3rd of July to give Sisi & the army the mandate to put an end to MB & affiliates' terrorism. Look at the neighbors of Egypt: Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan..you will see the fate that Egypt barely escaped, thanks to its army. The Egyptian army did not betray Egypt, it saved it & the vast majority of Egyptians are grateful & proud of their army. As for Mubarak, 30 years are too long for a ruler to stay in power. The seeds of many of Egypt's troubles now were sown during his rule. It was time for him to step aside.

Of course it wasn't fair, Mursi won elections how could it be fair? But talking about fairness, what happened after Mursi got 'sacked', that was fair indeed... Millions did gave support to army, but Egypt has over 85 millions of people. Anyway, i do hope that Egypt will overcome this and become safe country very soon but what i wish even more is for people to stop telling other people what is good for them, that only makes problems. Make comparison, Egypt 10 years ago and Egypt now, well actually do same for Libya and other countries of the region.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Of course it wasn't fair, Mursi won elections how could it be fair? But talking about fairness, what happened after Mursi got 'sacked', that was fair indeed... Millions did gave support to army, but Egypt has over 85 millions of people. Anyway, i do hope that Egypt will overcome this and become safe country very soon but what i wish even more is for people to stop telling other people what is good for them, that only makes problems. Make comparison, Egypt 10 years ago and Egypt now, well actually do same for Libya and other countries of the region.

If you are insinuating that I am "making up" allegations of election fraud because I don't like the result, you're wrong. There's a court case pending. Actually, Egyptian social media was also awash with pictures of neatly stacked ballots, ballot boxes hidden in supermarkets etc. It's difficult to hide these things when everyone has a phone with a camera.

As for the part I bolded, I thought my avatar made it clear that I'm Egyptian, not "others" trying to patronize Egyptians...

[RoofGardener]

.......

As for the part I bolded, I thought my avatar made it clear that I'm Egyptian, not "others" trying to patronize Egyptians...

Well, indeed. And speaking as a representative of the world community of Small Potted Courgette Plants, I agree with most of what M-T says.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Well, indeed. And speaking as a representative of the world community of Small Potted Courgette Plants, I agree with most of what M-T says.

I'm deeply touched

[Sir Smoke aLot]

If you are insinuating that I am "making up" allegations of election fraud because I don't like the result, you're wrong. There's a court case pending. Actually, Egyptian social media was also awash with pictures of neatly stacked ballots, ballot boxes hidden in supermarkets etc. It's difficult to hide these things when everyone has a phone with a camera.

As for the part I bolded, I thought my avatar made it clear that I'm Egyptian, not "others" trying to patronize Egyptians...

No i did not imply that and its not like its 100% clear that elections had been manipulated. Many people like Egypt's history so it wasn't really clear for me that you are from Egypt and i was talking in general - foreign influence did make things erupt like in other countries in the region, but i admit i don't know much about groups in Egypt nor about rivalry between them, if exists in some possibly violent way. I wish things get stable in your country as soon as possible.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Evidence for election manipulation were documented & clear enough to necessitate an investigation & court case which started during Mursi's tenure. These included (other than the examples I mentioned before): pre-marked ballots, fraudulent voters' lists, besieging villages where MB expected to lose to prevent its inhabitants from voting, voter bribery...etc. These were not covered by the media outside Egypt, so I understand that you do not know about it. Coverage of Egypt's news in general tends to be slanted and rather biased towards one group. I too wish for stability in Egypt and the ME in general

[Yamato]

Mubarak, Morsi, or Mahlab governments...they all sing from the same hymnbook when it comes to Israel. The one constant in Egyptian government is free money from the $US Taxpayer$. Our 2nd favorite welfare case in the Middle East just loves my "behave yourself" money. Just like all the petty partisan arguments about US politics, foreign welfare to a little rich country that can take care of itself (in spite of dozens of others that can't) is feigned to be moral and upright and correct.

[RoofGardener]

Mubarak, Morsi, or Mahlab governments...they all sing from the same hymnbook when it comes to Israel. ....

How many people have to "sing from the same hymnbook" before their opinion is regarded as having merit ?

Anyway, the Egyptian government(s) where elected to look after Egypt. For them, Israel is (or should be) at best a tertiary foreign-policy issue.