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markdohle

Holiness and true justice

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Posted (edited)

Holiness and true justice

Grace is a gift. It is like rain that falls from the sky, and it soaks the earth, freely given, allowing life to flourish. The prayer below is beautiful. It was sent to me by a good friend. In seeking to develop a heart for God, it is compassion that is sought for first. For by compassion we learn from our own sufferings that we are all on the same road. Compassion leads to empathy and only then can holiness and true justice occur. Without compassion and empathy we become hard, self righteous, and drive people away from us. For when we are self righteous others see our duplicity and we are left alone in our blindness.

Prayer

Righteous God Almighty, may my life reflect your character and nature in compassion, holiness, and justice. I know you are forever and I want to invest my life in what lasts. Give me wisdom to see through the fleeting temptations of today and to do what honors you beyond my lifetime. In Jesus' name. Amen.

The Thoughts and Prayers for Today's Verse are written by Phil Ware.

Edited by markdohle
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Wow!! Man have you missed the boat?

In the real world, there is no connection at all between holiness and true justice.

Athiests are just as able to dispense justice, in all of it forms, as Christians.

And in many cases, justice is arrived at out of negotiation, or as an expeditious means of solving a problem.

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

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Holiness and true justice

Grace is a gift. It is like rain that falls from the sky, and it soaks the earth, freely given, allowing life to flourish. The prayer below is beautiful. It was sent to me by a good friend. In seeking to develop a heart for God, it is compassion that is sought for first. For by compassion we learn from our own sufferings that we are all on the same road. Compassion leads to empathy and only then can holiness and true justice occur. Without compassion and empathy we become hard, self righteous, and drive people away from us. For when we are self righteous others see our duplicity and we are left alone in our blindness.

Prayer

Righteous God Almighty, may my life reflect your character and nature in compassion, holiness, and justice. I know you are forever and I want to invest my life in what lasts. Give me wisdom to see through the fleeting temptations of today and to do what honors you beyond my lifetime. In Jesus' name. Amen.

The Thoughts and Prayers for Today's Verse are written by Phil Ware.

The Biblical deity doesn't display any compassion, just the opposite! :devil:

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True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

According to the bible, it is the act or practice of homosexuality that is immoral and an abomination; not being gay per se. Homosexuals do not "automatically" go to hell, but the act of homosexuality is a sin and does require one to repent. Whether you are born, or choose to be, gay isn't the problem, it's always comes down to how you behave.

The Biblical deity doesn't display any compassion, just the opposite! :devil:

Just like all your other posts, you really missed the mark. If God wasn't compassionate He never would have sent His son to die on the cross (John 3:16), and that's enough. Moreover, if God wasn't compassionate He would have struck you (me and everyone else for that matter) down dead already for our unholiness.

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Posted (edited)

Wow!! Man have you missed the boat?

In the real world, there is no connection at all between holiness and true justice.

Athiests are just as able to dispense justice, in all of it forms, as Christians.

And in many cases, justice is arrived at out of negotiation, or as an expeditious means of solving a problem.

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

How do you treat others? That is where true justice starts, not with some broad statements about others. It is too easy to do that. We all long for justice, we perhaps have different perspectives, but according to the Christian path, we are called to love our enemies. I have never said that only believers are holy. I have known many people who have no faith but are very kind and loving. For me it shows that God grace works in all hearts. St. Paul talks about that in Romans:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey(U) the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,(V) they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets(W) through Jesus Christ,(X) as my gospel(Y) declares.

The christian faith is not about being 'good' but about being open to the love of God, which leads to a transformation of the heart. Just because many fail to do that, or perhaps they are on the road of growth and trust in God, does not surprise me. I often fail but trust in God mercy towards me and towards all. I do not allow the failures of others to dictate to me what I believe or what path I will walk. We are called to a bigger life, a more loving life, for me that comes from being open to the seed, the grace that is given to us all. All we need do is to be open, seek and we will find.

Peace

mark

Edited by markdohle

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Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

How can you demonstrate that your conception of "justice" is "true" in any objective sense?

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toyomotor' timestamp said:

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

Why stop with religion, what about injustices you have done to others, have you made recompense for those you hurt in your life, or back stabbed, or cheated in any way? I am not picking on you, but it is easy for most people to be very unjust towards others and not even avert to the fact, that is until it happens to them. What about parents who abuse their children, should they also be brought to justice? Businesses who cheat their customers, how about them? Governments who abuse and take the freedoms away from their people? Our own government for its wrong doings? It is impossible to bring actual true justice to everyone, however we can learn to treat others with justice and love. Your issues with religion is just an excuse for you not to look at yourself perhaps. Justice starts in the human heart, not in religion, but in the choices we all make every day. The life of God as it grows in the heart does bring about a love and caring for others that precludes treating others as objects to be use, cheated etc.

Peace

mark

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It does sound wonderful and wishful Mark, if only, right? I do like what toyomoter said, but I will have to remember this is a religious thread, and as a secular raised New Ager, I have no place to say what is what suppose to be.

I don't think Mark, you are talking about interfering with others on how they are treated, right? Is this suppose to seen as having faith from a far and believing your faith will help others?

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Posted (edited)

It does sound wonderful and wishful Mark, if only, right? I do like what toyomoter said, but I will have to remember this is a religious thread, and as a secular raised New Ager, I have no place to say what is what suppose to be.

I don't think Mark, you are talking about interfering with others on how they are treated, right? Is this suppose to seen as having faith from a far and believing your faith will help others?

I think what we truly believe will show in how we treat others. You judge a tree by its fruit.......not by what is said or preached. Saying and preaching may be helpful, but it is our actions that show who we are. I have humanist friends, some live what they say, others like many Christians are just full of Sh-t.

Peace

Mark

Edited by markdohle
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How can you demonstrate that your conception of "justice" is "true" in any objective sense?

The most ancient form of true justice is to deliver unto the wrongdoer the same as he delivered unto others. In other words, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and so on. Naturally this would raise questions of our own humanity in regard to treating others and whether we have the right to deliver said justice.

But the right I would think is given to a society as it seeks to deliver that justice instead of killing the entire family of the wrongdoer as was many times practiced in many places, Blood Feuds were and still are common practice in many places.

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According to the bible, it is the act or practice of homosexuality that is immoral and an abomination; not being gay per se. Homosexuals do not "automatically" go to hell, but the act of homosexuality is a sin and does require one to repent. Whether you are born, or choose to be, gay isn't the problem, it's always comes down to how you behave.

Well, specifically, the Bible prohibits *spam filter* between homosexual partners, not homosexuality, or even same-sex marriage. Some of the Bible's principal characters are blatantly engaged in same-sex relationships: David and Jonathan being a classic example.

Just like all your other posts, you really missed the mark. If God wasn't compassionate He never would have sent His son to die on the cross (John 3:16), and that's enough. Moreover, if God wasn't compassionate He would have struck you (me and everyone else for that matter) down dead already for our unholiness.

Wait, didn't God already murder everyone in the Flood for their unholiness? Allegedly, of course. There is very little compassion or genuine ethical behavior to be found from YHWH: rather we find a war god who can occasionally bring himself to be merciful. There's a reason why constant sacrifices were paid unto him: he was a god of fear and destruction, who threatened utter annihilation of his people if he was not kept perpetually assuaged of his seemingly endless wrath. As for the alleged "compassion" of Jesus' alleged crucifixion (I love the fact that you felt the need to cite John 3:16, as if even a single person here might be unfamiliar with it :lol: haha), it has a similar function: to avert YHWH's infinite wrath. Such a bizarrely complicated scheme: one would think an omnipotent deity capable of anything could simply forgive peope, without blood sacrifice. Surely even a lesser deity could be apeased through some other means. At the very least, the problem of evil must be addressed before anyone could even remotely claim that YHWH has ever demonstrated even an inkling of "compassion".

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I really don't think Jonathan and David were gay. It emphasized that they were best friends. I know what they felt for each other because I had a friend like that when I was a young boy and it's not gay. It never says anything sexual about the two. I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.

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Whether your concept of morality and true justice is based on secular belief or a belief in God - both are important to cultivate for those who adhere to one or the other. I believe Mark Dohle was expounding a christian entreaty to Holiness and Justice, not negating the secular views of justice.

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It never says anything sexual about the two. I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.

Guess who wrote the bible? Jews and I'm as polite as I can be...............................................................................................................................

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I really don't think Jonathan and David were gay. It emphasized that they were best friends. I know what they felt for each other because I had a friend like that when I was a young boy and it's not gay. It never says anything sexual about the two. I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan#Homoeroticism

There are numerous interpretations of the story, but I for one do see clear indications of a same-sex romantic relationship. Perhaps it was not sexual, but it does seem homoromantic, at least. The story of Ruth and Naomi is sometimes interpreted in similar terms. I've even seen some evidence that Jesus himself may have entertained a pederastic relationship. Anyway, it's all up to interpretation. I personally am unconvinced that most of these characters (Jesus included) were necessarily historical figures at all, but yeah ^_^

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I really don't think Jonathan and David were gay. It emphasized that they were best friends. I know what they felt for each other because I had a friend like that when I was a young boy and it's not gay. It never says anything sexual about the two. I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.

No way of being sure really, David and Jonathan clearly had a bromance that treaded pretty far into the homoerotic, but we're looking at it from our end on the otherside of concepts like platonic affection and agape love. Now such creatures back then, just look at the Song of Solomon, companionate love and intimate love were seen as a single, intwined beast-with-two-backs.

That said, and this is gonna be a bit of a stretch to word right, David and Jonathan weren't gay. Gay is a modern, Western concept that marks a demographic of people that adhere to predominantly homosexual affections. People now like to get Old Testament about "abominations," but really it seems that the Biblical disapproval of homosexual activity may be more geared at the level of drunken debauchery than anything else. Why waste good semen on another man when you could be giving you parents another grandchild?

It's the same line of thought that means that lesbians don't exist in the Bible. Women were thought to be fertile ground in which a seed is grown, so no one really cared what they did since you're not exactly going to run out of ground like you can a sack of seed.

And the idea of two men engaging in the contractual obligation of marriage would be comedic satire; marriage is yet another thing that's changed implications after the industrial revolution.

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Well, specifically, the Bible prohibits *spam filter* between homosexual partners, not homosexuality, or even same-sex marriage. Some of the Bible's principal characters are blatantly engaged in same-sex relationships: David and Jonathan being a classic example.

I was going to respond by writing "heh, next you're going to claim Ruth and Naomi were gay" but reading on I see you've already done it. Suffice it to say that I've read both stories and have never thought either couple were in any romantic engagement, or even homoerotic overtones.

Wait, didn't God already murder everyone in the Flood for their unholiness? Allegedly, of course. There is very little compassion or genuine ethical behavior to be found from YHWH: rather we find a war god who can occasionally bring himself to be merciful.

Or perhaps we find a loving and merciful God who occasionally brings himself to wrath?

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I was going to respond by writing "heh, next you're going to claim Ruth and Naomi were gay" but reading on I see you've already done it. Suffice it to say that I've read both stories and have never thought either couple were in any romantic engagement, or even homoerotic overtones.

There are numerous interpretations. I don't necessarily think that Naomi and Ruth were gay, but there are those who do. So I mentioned it.

Or perhaps we find a loving and merciful God who occasionally brings himself to wrath?

I know there are those who think that: I see no evidence of it myself however ^_^

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I was going to respond by writing "heh, next you're going to claim Ruth and Naomi were gay" but reading on I see you've already done it. Suffice it to say that I've read both stories and have never thought either couple were in any romantic engagement, or even homoerotic overtones.

Or perhaps we find a loving and merciful God who occasionally brings himself to wrath?

It could go even deeper - perhaps the "wrath" was toward the suffering humanity was bringing upon itself and inevitably to the coming generations. Perhaps, given that we are beings with souls, it was time to give us all a fresh start without the baggage of all those causes we had engendered giving rise to the inevitable terrible effects.

I don't claim to know the mind of God so this is an "opinion piece" but when I read "wrath" I recognize my own impotent rage at the suffering of others and what I would do if I could to stop it permanently. I really can't help wondering if the so called "Wrath of God" is something for those filled with evil doing who don't ever want their "good times" to end have to fear. Given that the rest of us (or believers at least) pray constantly for the end of humanities sufferings suggests that we all understand deep inside how wrathful seeing suffering can make a being.

I know I do not fear that kind of suffering coming to an end at all - in fact, many of us have faith that it will all end and we don't even begrudge the fact that the ending of suffering will not be pretty but will be worthwhile in the dawning of a new day filled with peace.

Edited by libstaK

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There are numerous interpretations. I don't necessarily think that Naomi and Ruth were gay, but there are those who do. So I mentioned it.

I know there are those who think that: I see no evidence of it myself however ^_^

Then there appears to be a dynamic here where I see little evidence that David and Jonathan were gay and you see little evidence that God is a loving God. What more can be said, really?
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Then there appears to be a dynamic here where I see little evidence that David and Jonathan were gay and you see little evidence that God is a loving God. What more can be said, really?

Not much I suppose ^_^

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Well, God is slow to anger. When he is angry at something that has been bothering him for a long while. So the wrath is to fix long time problems. It makes more sense than letting things go to waste on their own. God makes sense.

Also when he has wrathed on things and sent plagues it is when his children had prayed to him and asked for help, so he was helping his children out by plagueing the other people. Most would do that for their children. If not you could have your seed cut off, so it makes sense to defend your own children.

And you can't just let your children go on doing whatever they want when they do wrong, you have to discipline them, and he does that. Also playing the silent treatment, but taking his children back after they have repented.

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