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Roy Perry

Moses spoke Egyptian language or Hebrew langu

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God first, Atheist second, and Jesus Christ Last

Moses spoke Egyptian language or Hebrew language.

08-16-2014

The of the Jews from Egypt was in 1446BC and Moses was 8o years old then (Ex 7:7). This would mean Moses was born 1526BC.

Ex 1:2 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.

2 And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

3 And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink.

4 And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him.

5 And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it.

6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children.

7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?

The daughter of Pharaoh called Moses her son which gave Moses sonship rights otherwise she was his mother and no Hebrew dog could say anything about it.Yes the Hebrews were dogs and the Egyptians were gods so moses was higher grade of person than some Hebrew dog. Otherwise Moses did go the school of Hebrews but his mother daughter of Pharaoh Egyptian that save his life. Thank you with love of truth and an holy kiss of truth unto you from Roy.

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He spoke both.

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Probably Aramaic and Latin too... on a side note... I bet he picked his nose...

no one lives that long in the desert without having to clean house... :innocent:

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Probably Aramaic and Latin too... on a side note... I bet he picked his nose...

no one lives that long in the desert without having to clean house... :innocent:

Nice seinfeld reference

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even a broken clock is right twice a day... :tu:

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Posted (edited)

Ramesses II (Middle Egyptian: *Riʻmīsisu,[citation needed]transliterated as "Rameses" (/ˈræməsz/)[5] or "Ramses" (/ˈræmsz/ or /ˈræmzz/);[6] born c. 1303 BC; died July or August 1213 BC; reigned 1279–1213 BC), also known as Ramesses the Great

Old Latin (also called Early Latin or Archaic Latin) refers to the period of Latin texts before the age of Classical Latin, extending from textual fragments that probably originated in the Roman monarchy to the written language of the late Roman republic about 75 BC. Almost all the writing of its earlier phases is inscriptional.

Cleopatra VII Philopator (Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ; Late 69 BC[1] – August 12, 30 BC), known to history as Cleopatra, was the last active pharaoh of Ancient Egypt, only shortly survived by her son, Caesarion as pharaoh. The name Cleopatra is derived from the Greek name Κλεοπατρα (Kleopatra) which meant "glory of the father" in the feminine form, derived from κλεος (kleos) "glory" combined with πατρος (patros) "of the father" (the masculine form would be Kleopatros Κλεοπατρος).[2][3]

The Roman Kingdom (Latin: Regnum Romanum) was the period of the ancient Roman civilization characterized by a monarchical form of government of the city of Rome and its territories.

Little is certain about the history of the kingdom, as nearly no written records from that time survive, and the histories about it that were written during the Republic and Empire are largely based on legends. However, the history of the Roman Kingdom began with the city's founding, traditionally dated to 753 BC with settlements around the Palatine Hill along the river Tiber in Central Italy, and ended with the overthrow of the kings and the establishment of the Republic in about 509 BC.

R. ii kinda died long before Latin had a chance to go and develope.

And the forty years Moses was lost in the desert.....well, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights....Jesus went into the desert for 40 days, hence we have lint....Alibaba and how many thieves....40 just meant *a lot*

Edited by bubblykiss

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What's likely is that the historical Moses and Hebrews of Exodus spoke a language comparable to Yiddish, only substituting Ancient Egyptian for German and Ancient Canaanite for Hebrew. After the Exodus, they gradually shifted back to a Canaanite dialect, but Egyptian influence in Canaan was strong enough until the Bronze Age Collapse that they still would have kept both, sort of like the interplay between English and Spanish in the Southwest US.

There are still relics in Hebrew of the Egyptian language, and Moses' name is actually the most prominent one. In Exodus, they link the name Moses (or Moshe in Hebrew) to the word mashah which means to draw out, as Moses was drawn out of the NIle by Pharaoh's Daughter and as Moses would draw his People out of Egypt. It is similarly linked with the word that forms the root of Christ and Isaiah's names, in this case moshia, meaning savior or deliverer.

Both of these folk etymologies are incorrect as Moses is actually a particle of an Egyptian name. In an Egyptian name, it means "born of---" or "servant of---" as it is coupled with the name of a deity. Thutmosis, for example, the son of Thoth, or Moses' traditional nemesis, Rameses, the son of Ra. Moses is markedly missing the name of an Egyptian god in his name. This is because the name of the Lord God of Israel is not meant to be spoken, is ineffable. This makes Moses' name to mean "Servant of the Unnameable God".

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a little known fact is that he actually spoke Esperanto ;) Mister Faraono forliberigos Mian popolon liberaj!

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even a broken clock is right twice a day... :tu:

My sentiment exactly.

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He would have spoken both and perhaps other tribal names. He was after all a warrior prince. That is how he was able to kill the task later with his bear hands.

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Otherwise Moses did go the school of Hebrews but his mother daughter of Pharaoh Egyptian that save his life. Thank you with love of truth and an holy kiss of truth unto you from Roy.

Hebrew school? Hebrew school was the Mommas and the Poppas.

So where do you think Moses learn to write the written word of the Hebrew language? Think Paul taught them? Plus, how long do you think they made it out in the desert with all that livestock and gold they where hauling and no water?

The Egyptians couldn't do anything but make hieroglyphics, totally different concept that written word.

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I don't think they had a so called school. Being a son of royalty he would have had tutors teaching him the different languages and war. The slaves would have spoken Egyptian and their own languages. So those dealing with these slaves would need to know the slave language, for self defense if nothing else.

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I have read lots of intel on biblical history. One thing that we have to note is NOT taking the scriptures literal. Most of the bible is pure allegory and symbology, Moses was actually Pharaoh Akhenaten who spoke Metu-Ngr. The so called Hebrew that is presented before us is actually Yiddish and should not be confused with traditional Canaanite.

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There is no real reason to assume the actual existence of Moses, much less what language he spoke.

Prior to speculating on the tongue Moses spoke, why not speculate on whether he ever existed?

It's simultaneously sad and humorous that the OP nails down to the year the date of Moses' birth wiothout even establishing he lived.

Harte

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You mean the Hebrew calender is wrong. It starts with moses and the exidous.

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You mean the Hebrew calender is wrong. It starts with moses and the exidous.

Wrong in what sense?

That is, it's a nice calendar, it keeps time well, etc.

But if you mean the start date, well, let's...

ASK THE RABBI!

Dear Rabbi,

I have been asked by a colleague at work what event marks the beginning of the Jewish calendar? I have always understood that we date our years from the Creation. Am I correct? Can you quote any sources I can use to back up my theory?

Dear Sharon Cohen,

You're right. We are now in the year 5759 from the creation of Adam. We have an unbroken tradition that this is so; we've been writing this in our marriage documents for thousands of years.

For textual sources, look at the chronologies from Adam down through Avraham (Genesis, Chapters 5,11). This shows that Avraham was born in the year 1948 (!) from Creation. The Exodus from Egypt was 500 years later (Genesis 21:5, 15:13), bringing us to the year 2448. Add 480 years from the Exodus until the First Temple (Kings I, 6:1) and you have 2928. Add 410 years that the First Temple stood, 70 years of Babylonian exile, 420 years that the Second Temple stood, and 1931 years since its destruction. This gives you exactly 5759.

Looks like you're wrong. But take harte. So's the calendar, assuming the Earth itself is older than 5,579 years.

Harte

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You mean the Hebrew calender is wrong. It starts with moses and the exidous.

Actually it doesn't. It starts at circa 3760 BC which is the traditional date of creation according to the Jewish faith. Which makes 2014 the Jewish year 5774. Nothing about the Jewish Calendar starts it with Moses or the Exodus, neither of which show evidence of having been literally true.

cormac

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There is no real reason to assume the actual existence of Moses, much less what language he spoke.

Prior to speculating on the tongue Moses spoke, why not speculate on whether he ever existed?

It's simultaneously sad and humorous that the OP nails down to the year the date of Moses' birth wiothout even establishing he lived.

Harte

Moses actually has one of the better chances of existing out of the big names in the Book.

Adam and Abraham and Jacob and so on exist as founding mythology that one would expect from an ancient people. Their stories are meant to have a legendary quality and their individual characters are expanded upon in the body of Hebraic lore outside of canonical Texts. Moses, much like Jesus, has a very likely chance of being inspired by an historical figure, based not only on the drastic shift in narrative events he caused, but more so due to the traditions attributed to him that have been sustained for as long as they have.

I've already talked about the correspondence between the traditional Aaronic priesthood and a common male ancestor within an acceptable margin of the timeline. If Jews are so willing to commit to a bit that they'd spend 3500 years pretending to be a nephew of Moses, then I must say bravo, especially the part where they maintained a verifiable bloodline for the entire period.

But there are more traditions arising from the Torah that are inextricable from the Moses figure. The Ten Commandments borrow many social aspects from Hammurabi's Code, and even the first commandments' concern for monolatry isn't without parallels, but no where else in any culture was there any sign of a sabbath or weekend, much less a divine commandment to remember and keep one. Nor is the sabbath a relatively modern invention, like the Orthodox side-locks, the peyot. For as long as people-- be they Greek, Roman, Persian, or Egyptian-- have written about those monotheistic weirdos over south of Syria, they've marveled at the novelty of a tradition like a day of rest.

Similarly, cult sites in the Judaean Highlands dated to "Joshua's Conquest" also bear evidence that Israelite practices were being observed that draw from the Law of Moses', most notably the remains of sacrificial animals that conform to kosher standards while contemporaneous sites outside the Israelite-affiliated Highlands are abundant with swine remains and various other unclean animals.

I don't deny that much of this is based on the "where there's smoke, there's fire" principle, but seeing as alphabetic writing emerged close enough to the traditional time of these events that they could arguably mark the start of Western history, I'm willing to take more of a people's oral tradition into consideration. I contend that if America didn't inherit the English written language, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would come to be viewed in similar regards to the Constitution as Moses and Aaron are to the Torah; instrumental cultural figures who have been lionized and embellished beyond plausibility.

Now, this has been why one should not rule out the existence of an historical Moses. As to why we should blindly speculate about the life of a mythological figure, the discussion and argument serve to further the suggestion of the figure's reality. If we accept the Charleton Heston depiction of the figure, then we might as well accept the tradition that God revealed the Torah to Israel at Sinai by writing out the letters of the (modern) Hebrew alphabet in white fire against a black sky.

However, a human character, who grew up as an adopted outsider within the Egyptian nobility and developed a speech impediment, explosive anger issues, and an inferiority complex from his time as a B-grade prince is much more understandable and relatable. This is the reason we have prophets and saints; not to be better than us and holier than thou, but to demonstrate that we can thrive and be remembered and shape a culture thousands of years after our lives end, despite our human limitations.

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You, at least, make a reasonable argument.

However, there's simply no reason to believe in any Moses-led exodus. Now, there certainly may have been a person named "Moses." But, even leaving out all the hocus-pocus, you can bet he didn't lead a horde out of Egypt.

Harte

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OK I stand corrected. If the earth is only five plus thousand years old. Then we have at least one thousand years before Christ returns.

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OK I stand corrected. If the earth is only five plus thousand years old. Then we have at least one thousand years before Christ returns.

While the cat's away...?

Harte

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OK I stand corrected. If the earth is only five plus thousand years old. Then we have at least one thousand years before Christ returns.

How do you figure there are at least one thousand years? It says he will come like a thief in the night.

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A very slow thief on a long night.

Harte

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OK I stand corrected. If the earth is only five plus thousand years old. Then we have at least one thousand years before Christ returns.

If pigs actually could fly it would be a hell of a lot easier to bring home the bacon. :w00t:

But since the earth is some 4.5+ billion years old then trying to pidgeon-hole its age into a Judeo-Christian timeframe is meaningless.

cormac

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You, at least, make a reasonable argument.

However, there's simply no reason to believe in any Moses-led exodus. Now, there certainly may have been a person named "Moses." But, even leaving out all the hocus-pocus, you can bet he didn't lead a horde out of Egypt.

Harte

What would put this entire discussion to bed is historical verification, but therein lies the rub.

By definition, historical verification and accuracy are achieved by compiling multiple sources.

This has always been something of a double standard that has bothered me: If a Pharaoh were to carve in 50 foot sandstone stele that, by his divine favor, he conquered an army of 10,000 chariots when Ptah sent a plague of mice to chew through the charioteers' reins and spread plague, it becomes a piece of military history. Meanwhile, an equally if not more feasible series of plagues befall a Pharaoh and it becomes the stuff of Rugrats specials and Veggietales because of its involvement of a Deity whose worship has survived. In every other ancient culture, the mythopoetic aspects are overlooked in favor of historical content. At a certain point, it almost becomes insulting to modern Jews; that they must remain as mythological as unicorns rather than having their purported cultural history examined for its factual value.

If one looks past the obvious pro-Hebrew message of their own story, a highly plausible picture emerges that takes the entire Exodus out of the realm of fantasy.

A Pharaoh decides to curtail the political influence of a growing minority group by revoking their citizenship and the rights associated with it, returning them to sojourner status, as would happen to Jews through out pre-modern Europe. We can look at slavery in the US as a possible model for Israel in Egypt, but there are certain factors that make abject slavery unlikely, namely slaves are expensive. What seems more likely is that Israel was forced into an inescapable cycle of predatory sharecropping that freed slaves suffered through in America after the Civil War and frozen at a second-class social level.

Then comes "Moses," which at this point can get pretty dark if one reads between the lines. Based on his mother hiding him and eventually setting him adrift in the Nile, one could speculate that Moses may have been a b******. Darker still, Moses' mother apparently served familiarly enough with the royal court that she would be brought on as Moses' wet nurse without so much as a resume. Pharaoh's daughter would have to be Mother Theresa to just adopt an abandoned slave child because it was crying, however if she knew the child's mother and had reason to believe that the second-class infant may have been fathered by an Egyptian noble under, let's say, circumstances of ill propriety (It only says two Levites got married and the woman bore a son, no guarantee whose), Pharaoh's daughter could rectify the situation by taking Moses under her patronage.

So Moses grows up in between the two socio-political spheres, shaping his personality. Then a few events, plot devices, and a literal Deus ex machina later, he gets back in touch with his Hebrew roots and begins to campaign for the restoration of their status--a Martin Luther King Jr. arguing on behalf of his people. A few natural disasters stemming from a red algae bloom up river coinciding with an eclipse and an understandably perturbed Pharaoh dismisses a faction of Hebrew separatists within the population rather than face the inevitable riots they could start, especially when the plague-ruined grain stores run out and famine sets in.

Pharaoh then faces the fall out from his courts after being extorted by a bunch of sojourners/taxable demographic and decides to reclaim his royal pride by training his charioteers on an unarmed Israel in mid-exodus. However the pursuing charioteer commanders hadn't counted on the tidal activity of yam suf or a "reed sea" that occurs in certain parts of the shore of the Red Sea. Something Moses would have undoubtedly discovered during his exile to Midian. Knowing that Egypt won't suffer a failure as costly as drowning a chariot corp without wanting retribution, Moses leads Israel on a meandering path through the desert of the Sinai Peninsula. Israel is a small enough company to be able to forage and subsist in the region; safe from potential enemies and any military expedition sent to find them.

Give or take forty years, as long as any Pharaoh and his successor could be expected to hold a grudge, and the new generation of Israel begins establishing themselves in the regions of Canaan that Egypt never occupied or had withdrawn from, and so begins Joshua's tenure... phew!

I'm aware that this has run long, and I apologize. Ultimately, this comes down to a question of semantics. It is true that "Moses" can never be proven, but his existence is highly probable, as was an Exodus, if not on the scale tradition has left us. Historical and archaeological verification should not be expected--a roving caravan of nomads in a desert leave little evidence and the desert since has become a destination for the faithful to be interred, meaning any grave found will be next to impossible to place or date. Egypt would be content not to record the events and let a people be lost to history, meanwhile said People experiencing the events first hand were in between languages and on the cusp between oral and written history.

Did the Plagues happen? There's no reason they couldn't. Miracles lie at the junction of natural phenomena and remote probabilities. If you want repeatability in miracles, watch Vegas stage magic-- six nights a week and twice on Saturday.

Could Israel depart and survive in a desert for forty years? We forget how adaptable people are. Just look at the scope of the Anasazi culture and their environment and Israel instantly becomes sustainable in Sinai.

Was there a Moses? It seems odd otherwise that the ancient Hebrews, who put such a premium on the significance of names, would give their culture hero an Egyptian name unless some other factor was in play.

Should we base a religion on the accounts of a People most associated with the invention of monotheism and ironic, sarcastic humor? That's a personal choice, but really, I find the fact that they still exist to raise this question suggestive enough. How many Parthians do you know? Scythians? Cimmerians? Mitannians? Minoans? Now how many cultures can you name that, within the period of recorded and verified history, have been the target of dispersion, persecution, subjugation, or eradication by every imperial superpower since Assyria? Miracles lie at the junction of natural phenomena and remote probabilities. That said, I am willing to extend credulity to a People whom being spoken of in the present tense qualifies for an active miracle. It would seem only fitting that their tradition should begin by thwarting the resident superpower of the day's efforts to oppress them.

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