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ParaGirlProductions

Why is the Devil the bad guy if.....

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One thing that have ALWAYS got me questioning religion... IF the Devil is as bad as they say he is, how come he punishes those who do wrong? Isn't that doing something good? (P.S I'm not trying to start a war.. I genuinely want to know)

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One thing that have ALWAYS got me questioning religion... IF the Devil is as bad as they say he is, how come he punishes those who do wrong? Isn't that doing something good? (P.S I'm not trying to start a war.. I genuinely want to know)

Because those that do wrong to Devil's standards are actually doing good (the opuses of evil), therefore punishing those that do good is still an evil process.

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Another interesting question is why, exactly, would an all-powerful, all-knowing god create him in the first place? Surely he knew Lucifer was going to fall, become the devil, and cause all kinds of problems with his creation - so why did he even allow him to be made to begin with?

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Misery loves company.

And being divorced from the proximity of god has turned the devil into something other then that which we can wholly understand.

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Lucifer was an angel. He was also called Lucifer the Light Bringer. The God in the Bible makes reference to being in the plural, as in more, "we" and "us". There is the God who created the planets and the God who behaves like a human with super powers and severe temper. Big difference.

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Another interesting question is why, exactly, would an all-powerful, all-knowing god create him in the first place? Surely he knew Lucifer was going to fall, become the devil, and cause all kinds of problems with his creation - so why did he even allow him to be made to begin with?

Balance of power and the preconception of conflict. If there was a war in heaven and Lewie and the fallen angels were cast out, why did God simply not *unmake* them at which time they became a problem?

Maybe for the same reason he sends angels to Lot as the strangers rather than rolling up to S&G and being like "Yo lot, you righteous bro, get outta here 'cause I am gonna go all molten death and destro on this hood. And make sure yer wife ain't sneaking no peeps at my consternation, bra. Or I will salt that old lady".

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I always interpreted it as him doing what damage he could against God by striking His most loved creation. He was sent to hell as punishment, and is forced to look on the creation he can no longer be a part of, and thus he probably has some contempt towards humanity.

Granted, this is based a bit more on "Paradise Lost", as the Bible is pretty mum on the nature of Hell and Old Scratch himself.

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Lucifer was an angel. He was also called Lucifer the Light Bringer. The God in the Bible makes reference to being in the plural, as in more, "we" and "us". There is the God who created the planets and the God who behaves like a human with super powers and severe temper. Big difference.

I've never read a Bible that called Lucifer an angel, the passage is taking about a mortal king.
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Balance of power and the preconception of conflict. If there was a war in heaven and Lewie and the fallen angels were cast out, why did God simply not *unmake* them at which time they became a problem?

Maybe for the same reason he sends angels to Lot as the strangers rather than rolling up to S&G and being like "Yo lot, you righteous bro, get outta here 'cause I am gonna go all molten death and destro on this hood. And make sure yer wife ain't sneaking no peeps at my consternation, bra. Or I will salt that old lady".

Or for that matter, why go through all of the trouble of the flood and Noah when he could simply do an I Dream of Jeanie (you know, for the drama of it) blinky thing and start all over again.

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Satan (adversary) in the Old Testament is just a sock puppet under God's will.In the New Testament you have Satan 2.0 that's independant.In Revelation it says the Snake in the Garden was Satan even though the OT clearly calls it a Snake as in the animal.

Later centuries in extraBiblical literature Satan got more storied.

It's the same tactic as the Boogie Man, or a Kelpie is going to get you for noncomformity.

Edited by davros of skaro
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1) Satan doesn't exist.

2) Old Testament is the Jewish God of Wrath etc..

3) New Testament God is the God of Love etc.

4) The Bible was written by men. Often decades after the event.

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ParaGirl, Rafterman

Both of you bring up questions that I'd like to counter with a question of my own - where does the Bible say this? Para, where does it say that Satan will punish anyone, Rafter, where does it say Satan rebelled?

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ParaGirl, Rafterman

Both of you bring up questions that I'd like to counter with a question of my own - where does the Bible say this? Para, where does it say that Satan will punish anyone, Rafter, where does it say Satan rebelled?

Question: When was Satan cast out of heaven and made to fall to the earth?

Answer: One large Christian denomination (and no doubt others) believes God cast out his adversary Satan from heaven in 1914 when World War I started. This is, however, clearly not true. Though no doubt a pivotal year in world history, the great tribulation did not start at that time nor did the Second Coming occur. The devil clearly was removed from heaven many years prior to 1914 A.D.

One foundational Bible verse that gives us a time frame for when Satan was cast out of heaven is in the verse you refer to in your question. Jesus, in Luke 10:18, stated he personally witnessed this momentous event which occurred with all the quickness and power of lightning. He was literally ejected from God's throne long before what happened in Genesis 1:2 took place.

Satan's revolt took place when he was on the earth. Our Maker states, in Isaiah 14, that Lucifer planned to ASCEND to the third heaven where his throne resided (meaning he was not already there!). And what would our Father's adversary DO once he arrived at the very center of all power and authority? He would mount on all-out assault, with his army of demonic followers, to FORCIBLY take control of God's throne so that he could rule everything (Isaiah 14:13 - 14)!

Before his rebellion and sin, Lucifer's position as a powerful covering cherub (a special class of angels), right over the throne of the universe, is confirmed in Ezekiel 28:14 - 15.

While still obedient, God put him on the earth with certain responsibilities. While on the planet he (and one third of the other angels) decided to rebel against God (Revelation 12:3 - 4). God tossed Satan from his heavenly abode when he and his angels arrived to attack it, as Jesus witnessed.

It does appear, however, that the devil will once again try to rise up from the earth to attack God's headquarters, only to get thrown down yet again (Revelation 12:7 - 9). 1914 is far too long ago for Lucifer's second attempt, with his twisted helpers known as demons, to try and take control of the entire universe

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/when-was-satan-cast-out-of-heaven.html

and

Isaiah 14:13-14New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For you have said in your heart:

‘I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.’

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14%3A13-14&version=NKJV

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Question: When was Satan cast out of heaven and made to fall to the earth?

Answer: One large Christian denomination (and no doubt others) believes God cast out his adversary Satan from heaven in 1914 when World War I started. This is, however, clearly not true. Though no doubt a pivotal year in world history, the great tribulation did not start at that time nor did the Second Coming occur. The devil clearly was removed from heaven many years prior to 1914 A.D.

One foundational Bible verse that gives us a time frame for when Satan was cast out of heaven is in the verse you refer to in your question. Jesus, in Luke 10:18, stated he personally witnessed this momentous event which occurred with all the quickness and power of lightning. He was literally ejected from God's throne long before what happened in Genesis 1:2 took place.

Satan's revolt took place when he was on the earth. Our Maker states, in Isaiah 14, that Lucifer planned to ASCEND to the third heaven where his throne resided (meaning he was not already there!). And what would our Father's adversary DO once he arrived at the very center of all power and authority? He would mount on all-out assault, with his army of demonic followers, to FORCIBLY take control of God's throne so that he could rule everything (Isaiah 14:13 - 14)!

Before his rebellion and sin, Lucifer's position as a powerful covering cherub (a special class of angels), right over the throne of the universe, is confirmed in Ezekiel 28:14 - 15.

While still obedient, God put him on the earth with certain responsibilities. While on the planet he (and one third of the other angels) decided to rebel against God (Revelation 12:3 - 4). God tossed Satan from his heavenly abode when he and his angels arrived to attack it, as Jesus witnessed.

It does appear, however, that the devil will once again try to rise up from the earth to attack God's headquarters, only to get thrown down yet again (Revelation 12:7 - 9). 1914 is far too long ago for Lucifer's second attempt, with his twisted helpers known as demons, to try and take control of the entire universe

http://www.biblestud...-of-heaven.html

and

Isaiah 14:13-14New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For you have said in your heart:

‘I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.’

https://www.biblegat...14&version=NKJV

The pasages in Ezekiel and Isaiah refer to human kings, earthly rulers who once had the favour of God but because of their sinfulness thought they could rise above who they were, and were then cast down by God for their pride. Revelation is apocalyptic literature, and to base entire doctrines off those few passages found therein feels very iffy, I certainly wouldn't do it. That leaves just Luke 10, and what it says about Jesus witnessing Satan being cast down, and even as I sit here I can think of several alternative interpretations not requiring a war in heaven or a rebellious Satan. To be fair, it's been a while since I studied Luke 10 in great detail, so not all of these other interpretations may be contextually accurate, but the point is that the entire doctrine of Satan's rebellion is being put down to one verse (half a verse, actually). In the face of the historical fact that the Jews did not view Satan as a rebellious angel, is one verse in Luke that can be interpreted several ways be the catalyst for an entire doctrine that flies in the face of the history of Jewish understanding of Satan?

I think not.

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So it seems to me that preety much everything we know of Old Scratch comes from much later works. Notably "Paradise Lost" with a good amount of "Faust". Even then I believe the original Faust legend didn't involve Satan but an. Earlier Germanic demon. Mephestopheles, I think.

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Satan's revolt took place when he was on the earth. Our Maker states, in Isaiah 14, that Lucifer planned to ASCEND to the third heaven where his throne resided (meaning he was not already there!). And what would our Father's adversary DO once he arrived at the very center of all power and authority? He would mount on all-out assault, with his army of demonic followers, to FORCIBLY take control of God's throne so that he could rule everything (Isaiah 14:13 - 14)!

Why is it addressed to a human king (14:4, 14:16)?

Much of Isaiah 14 is a proverbial insult directed at a Babylonian King.

14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

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There is a play I read about a long time ago. My memory probably has it wrong, but it seems to me someone is standing for his Judgement before God, with Jesus as prosecutor and the Devil as the guy's defense attorney.

You can work out why this arrangement for yourselves. :)

Edited by StarMountainKid
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The bible doesn't say Satan will punish anyone. If anything, he's punishing us right now. Not for sins, but he does his work to make us slip up.

When you have a Being that is good, what is the absence of good? Evil. We know good and evil exist in the world. People often criticize God for creating evil or creating an evil being. He didn't. He created beings and gave them free will. God created you and me. We've all done bad things. We could go on a killing spree right now. Why don't we? If everything was survival of the fittest, then it should be okay for me to murder someone and live in their house and eat all their food or rob someone when I'm starving. But no one would think that's okay.

I heard a good message lately about people asking God why He doesn't feed the poor and let people go hungry and He turns around and says, "why don't you?" If you have the means, why don't you give the homeless guy on the corner? But you want to get angry at God? That makes people hypocrites. We have choices. Every day is a choice. What you do with those choices can make the difference between good and evil.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Jewish religion don't they see Satan more like a prosecuting attorney angle of humankind to God

rather then the evil character that Christianity sees him? I remember watching a documentary on it. Satan points out the bad deeds

to God and another angle points out the good deeds and lets God decide the fate.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Jewish religion don't they see Satan more like a prosecuting attorney angle of humankind to God

rather then the evil character that Christianity sees him? I remember watching a documentary on it. Satan points out the bad deeds

to God and another angle points out the good deeds and lets God decide the fate.

It's more than simply "pointing out" the bad deeds, in Jewish theology he still attempts to entice humanity to sin. A parable a Jewish member once posted here seems to cover things pretty well:

There once was a wise and powerful king who ruled over a vast kingdom. His son was to inherit the kingdom, but the king asked his son to give an oath that he would remain a virgin until he became ruler. To test his son, the king called in a beautiful prostitute and commanded her to attempt to seduce his son. The prostitute, being a loyal servant to the king, reluctantly did as she was asked and attempted to seduce the son.

I don't recall if he ever ended the parable or simply set up the story since all the players are in place. God (the king) rules the world, and humanity (the son) are heirs to his kingdom, but we must keep the commands of God in the meantime. God sends Satan (the prostitute) to entice us as a test of our faithfulness to God's commands. This is what I think is the most appropriate view of Satan in Christianity also. The only difference (if it can be said to be a difference) is that in the parable it implies that the prostitute (Satan) is reluctant in carrying out their duty, while I think Satan enjoys his task and would have done it anyway (to use a phrase, Satan's job just also happens to be his hobby). From a practical point of view, I don't think it really matters whether Satan entices us on God's command or whether he does so in order to rebel against God, either way we're still being tested, and that makes Satan just as dangerous to us humans (and God won't accept "the devil made me do it" as an excuse, no one "makes" us do anything, we may want to do something, but it's our responsibility to control ourselves).

Edited by Paranoid Android
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The bible doesn't say Satan will punish anyone. If anything, he's punishing us right now. Not for sins, but he does his work to make us slip up.

When you have a Being that is good, what is the absence of good? Evil. We know good and evil exist in the world. People often criticize God for creating evil or creating an evil being. He didn't. He created beings and gave them free will. God created you and me. We've all done bad things. We could go on a killing spree right now. Why don't we? If everything was survival of the fittest, then it should be okay for me to murder someone and live in their house and eat all their food or rob someone when I'm starving. But no one would think that's okay.

I heard a good message lately about people asking God why He doesn't feed the poor and let people go hungry and He turns around and says, "why don't you?" If you have the means, why don't you give the homeless guy on the corner? But you want to get angry at God? That makes people hypocrites. We have choices. Every day is a choice. What you do with those choices can make the difference between good and evil.

The people that made up your imaginary friend for propaganda purposes made sure to cover all the bases.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Jewish religion don't they see Satan more like a prosecuting attorney angle of humankind to God

rather then the evil character that Christianity sees him? I remember watching a documentary on it. Satan points out the bad deeds

to God and another angle points out the good deeds and lets God decide the fate.

Exactly..Satan is a Sock Puppet of God in your Judgement.

The Book of Job alters his character a little but he's still under God's will.

Satan means adversary and God raises many against Israel for falling away from the law.

1 Kings 11:23 (KJV)

23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:

Christians Reinvented Satan to temp Jesus with what he all ready owned if he was God.

Matthew 4:8-9 (KJV)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=satan

Edited by davros of skaro

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not too long ago, I was watching a movie (I know, I know.... a movie) when one of the main characters said something to the effect of "Hell is a prison and The Devil is the warden. Its his job to make sure the inmates don't escape and create more havoc"

BEST - Ron

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Exactly..Satan is a Sock Puppet of God in your Judgement.

The Book of Job alters his character a little but he's still under God's will.

Satan means adversary and God raises many against Israel for falling away from the law.

1 Kings 11:23 (KJV)

23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:

Christians Reinvented Satan to temp Jesus with what he all ready owned if he was God.

Matthew 4:8-9 (KJV)

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

http://www.etymonlin....php?term=satan

Yes it was the Book of Job this documentary was referring to about Satan Being more of a prosecuting attorney .

Satan wanted God to test Job to see how faithful he would be if he had his family and wealth taken away.

I know an elderly woman in her 80's that over the years she's lost 2 husband, parents, 2 nieces, younger brother

daughter and recently a great granddaughter. But like Job she keeps her faith and never waivered.

Edited by Hawkin
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Why is the devil the bad guy? Because every story book needs a villain.

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