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UFO_Monster

The issue I have with reincarnation.

23 posts in this topic

First off, I would like to point out that I follow no religion. But I do bare some knowledge of religions and the standards they set.

So, I've been thinking lately about reincarnation. As the thread title hints, I'm not fond of the concept. I understand the purpose it serves according to Buddhism and Hinduism. However, my biggest problems with it go beyond seeking a higher spiritual state of being. It's about "moving on." Without any say, if reincarnation is in fact what will happen after death, I'll be placed into a body---human or animal. I do not remember my past life. All my memories, of my previous life will "disappear," and I get to make new ones. Fine. But that bothers me in some ways.

I must ask: What happened to the people I knew in my past life? Did they ever reach the pinnacle of spiritual existence? Will I ever see them again in my new life, or some point beyond this one? Will I ever recall my previous existences at some point? I apologize if these things can be found easily, but everyone says different things about it. Some say yes. Others say no. What is true? What is not?

Lastly, does this bother believers in any way? If not, how does it not bother you? Of course, I won't care if I am reincarnated into something else, because I won't remember any of my past lives. I'll simply be starting a new life. Nonetheless, as I think of it now, I don't find it desirable. It doesn't seem natural to me. I would rather just be dead, and never come back in any form. What say you?

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Well according to some we reincarnate in groups that come back together more or less over the spans of different lifetimes to learn different lessons. Also according to some there is a duality of the soul and that the memories and feelings of each life are not erased but stored in the Akashic record, sort of a collective consciousness. My personal belief is that we get previews of possibilities in our lives and deja vu is us revisiting those previews. Some people including myself have had regression therapy to remember past lives. I was born with some past life recall and my first words were about having another Mother and that I had drowned in my previous life.

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I think that after we die, and before we're reincarnated, we go to a place, I don't know what it is or called or anything, but we go to a place and kinda just chill for a few years, planning our next incarnation, and meeting with guides and stuff. I think that when we're in this place, we remember all of our lives and we remember ALL of it. I think we don't remember when we reincarnate becuase our mind becomes our main consciousness, but it doesn't mean that we forget. I think we carry all those memories within our soul, but it's not always accessible in the physical.

As for everyone we've known in our physical lives, some believe that we always incarnate with the same group of souls, some think you don't. I really have no idea. I don't know, I'm not that connected to the people in my life even though I love them, so it doesn't bother me too deeply to think I won't see them around. Hmm, actually, yeah, it kind of does. But I still don't know how it works.

But, you've probably heard of this, but I think that we for sure are incarnated with our twin flame/ soulmate. It sounds cheesy, and maybe it is, but I think we plan to always incarnate with this other soul so we can always find eachother. I don't know, some say that you don't, but some say you do.. But I kind of think it's just up to you.

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Posted (edited)

Also according to some there is a duality of the soul and that the memories and feelings of each life are not erased but stored in the Akashic record, sort of a collective consciousness.

That's what I was going to say but couldn't find the right words. This line of thinking can lead to the possibility that maybe all of life stems from one being, who is the keeper of this 'collective consciousness' and what/who all of the learning is for. You and I would be partitions of this host, possibly all sharing the experience gained unconsciously, but usually unaware at surface level, except under some less than usual circumstances.

Edited by _Only

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I have developed an approach to the topic that might be a bit unique.

I found myself recognizing that some people have a really bad lot in life, maybe by being born in some disabled way or becoming that way through the circumstances of their life. From that recognition came a realization that it would only be fair--as if fair exists--if they were to have another chance, one that would involve a really good lot in life. (This is how I feel the original thoughts of reincarnation were brought about--an opportunity for a redo.)

Reflecting on my amazingly extensive near-death experience (Greyson scale of 28 out of a possible 32) in 1966 during this same time as reflecting on reincarnation, brought me a step further. If everyone experienced what I did in 1966, due to death, then there is no need for a "redo" because such an experience is far greater an existence than anything that can be experienced in this current form of life.

From that therefore I could not see a purpose for reincarnation unless one would need another go in order to accomplish some prerequisite prior to death; a prerequisite that might be necessary to bring about the new kind of living I did in 1966 for a while. An example of that kind of a prerequisite might be "being a devout follower of Zoroaster or Jesus or some such thing."

That is as far as my way of objective thinking has taken me, so far.

As to what I believe, that is a much different thing and involves, necessarily, faith in a religion. The reason (actually there are more than one) for that is that faith is necessary in order to have free will. To the contrary, if everything is by fact--mechanistic--then we would be mere robots, not needing free will at all. (I guess one could now do a comparison between the Hiesenburg Principle and free will--but I'll not.) While learning those things we learn in university we can fool ourselves into thinking everything is mechanistic and then step into becoming an atheist.

I say fool ourselves because the only thing taught in university is that which is known. If we considered, covered, and exposed ourselves to that which is unknown, we would realize the universe does not consist of a purely mechanistic, explainable knowledge. We merely choose to prove that which we can. We don't study the interactions of gravity or other forces on three equal sized and equal massed spheres, because we have never figured out how to predict such interactions. To date it is still beyond us.

So, my stand of believing man has free will requires that there also must be faith expressed in a religion.

So, there you have my objective thoughts and my beliefs.

Additionally, if I may, IMHO belief is necessary because we can not depend on objecting thinking to advance us beyond death/ this-way-of-life. By the time man comes to a certain philosophical certainty, too many generations will have passed. Thus the need for faith.

Now, maybe I can sleep and have some kind of a neat dream, like flying. Good night!

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Like you OP, I don't believe in reincarnation in a sense that we keep coming back. It's fair to say that people like to believe this as it has a way of "immortality" about the soul but it doesn't feel comfortable to return again and again. I do find many holes with the Western concept of reincarnation though. Many people claiming to have had past lives experience it under regression and hypnosis. And many people often claim that they were royalty, mainly living in ancient Egypt, and living in a very historical period. There are far more people alive today and if each of us lived before, when the worl'd population was smaller, then do we share souls with other living people and are souls created? There simply isn't enough soul passing on to go around. Mathematically it's flawed.

Experiences people feel towards places they've never been to as well as people they believe they once knew, can be interprated simply as hereditary memory and deja vu. And there is such a thing as spiritual possession. It isn't only negative evil entities that take over a person but also sometimes a kind spirit that is trying to communicate.

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So, I've been thinking lately about reincarnation. As the thread title hints, I'm not fond of the concept. I understand the purpose it serves according to Buddhism and Hinduism. However, my biggest problems with it go beyond seeking a higher spiritual state of being. It's about "moving on." Without any say, if reincarnation is in fact what will happen after death, I'll be placed into a body---human or animal. I do not remember my past life. All my memories, of my previous life will "disappear," and I get to make new ones. Fine. But that bothers me in some ways.

I must ask: What happened to the people I knew in my past life?..................................

I think, it's a little bit complicated. In order to understand people must have a broad overview.

See for example Bardo thedol or Brahma samhita.

........ I do not remember my past life. .............................

When you obtained a supernatural powers throug meditation of Yoga for example, you can be able remember your past lifes.

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I recommend reading Robert Schwartz: the book titled your souls gift

It's about soul planning and stuff, I feel it's a good insight into these issues.

Here's the link.

http://www.yoursoulsplan.com/

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Maybe there is reincarnation where the spirit returns. If there is I like to think that we are not ever separated from our loves ones, as one person I talked with said when he had a NDE and went to the other side his wife was there who was still living. Maybe we all are really there and here, that we are just not aware of it here.:)I always wondered why we have to sleep.

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If there is a soul and it reincarnate?It could be for reasons very simple.Maybe an interdimensional being cannot experience emotion because it's derived through a biological component.Maybe even a tortured life is desirable just to experience it and it's kind of like a Rolller Coaster ride for it.

What I am saying is that all this talk of magical records amd higher levels of attainment are Man made concepts.If we do have souls then maybe it's just a ride for us and we could be all one being taking advantage of being outside spacetime.

People make stuff up and or are delusional so we do not know.

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First off, I would like to point out that I follow no religion. But I do bare some knowledge of religions and the standards they set.

So, I've been thinking lately about reincarnation. As the thread title hints, I'm not fond of the concept. I understand the purpose it serves according to Buddhism and Hinduism. However, my biggest problems with it go beyond seeking a higher spiritual state of being. It's about "moving on." Without any say, if reincarnation is in fact what will happen after death, I'll be placed into a body---human or animal. I do not remember my past life. All my memories, of my previous life will "disappear," and I get to make new ones. Fine. But that bothers me in some ways.

I must ask: What happened to the people I knew in my past life? Did they ever reach the pinnacle of spiritual existence? Will I ever see them again in my new life, or some point beyond this one? Will I ever recall my previous existences at some point? I apologize if these things can be found easily, but everyone says different things about it. Some say yes. Others say no. What is true? What is not?

Lastly, does this bother believers in any way? If not, how does it not bother you? Of course, I won't care if I am reincarnated into something else, because I won't remember any of my past lives. I'll simply be starting a new life. Nonetheless, as I think of it now, I don't find it desirable. It doesn't seem natural to me. I would rather just be dead, and never come back in any form. What say you?

Duality is when things exist relative to each other. Non-duality is when no things exist relative to each other.

All things which exist (time, space, matter, thoughts) are relative and hence forms of duality. Only one type of non-duality is possible and that is a completely empty mind. That state existed before you become conscious, can exist during meditation and will be a future state you eventually achieve. When you do so you are liberated from the birth-death cycle.

How do thoughts create the things which exist?

Basically a thought collapses non-duality mind into duality mind because thoughts are relative. So non-duality mind gets collapsed into individual minds which are all relative to each other.

Individuals relative to each other all require a location relative to each other for them to exist. This created space.

Thoughts have a before and after. This created time.

Individuals relative to each other all need to be made from something. This created matter.

Reality is made out of 1000s of different states of duality. Male vs female, here vs there, before vs after, up vs down, etc. All these originate from the thoughts occuring in your mind. Some of the states of duality go in your favour (you could be rich, beautiful, intelligent, etc) but some of them also go against you (famine, pain, ugly, dumb, etc).

The ones that go against you make you suffer. When you've suffered enough you put the thought causing the state of duality out of your mind (dissosciation). Then suffering from it ends. Over time, and many birth-death cycles, you will dissosciate from the thoughts causing all states of duality returning your mind to non-duality.

Until you get over having thoughts you will continue to reincarnate. This is because the thoughts will continue to collapse non-duality into states of duality.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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First off, I would like to point out that I follow no religion. But I do bare some knowledge of religions and the standards they set.

So, I've been thinking lately about reincarnation. As the thread title hints, I'm not fond of the concept. I understand the purpose it serves according to Buddhism and Hinduism. However, my biggest problems with it go beyond seeking a higher spiritual state of being. It's about "moving on." Without any say, if reincarnation is in fact what will happen after death, I'll be placed into a body---human or animal. I do not remember my past life. All my memories, of my previous life will "disappear," and I get to make new ones. Fine. But that bothers me in some ways.

I must ask: What happened to the people I knew in my past life? Did they ever reach the pinnacle of spiritual existence? Will I ever see them again in my new life, or some point beyond this one? Will I ever recall my previous existences at some point? I apologize if these things can be found easily, but everyone says different things about it. Some say yes. Others say no. What is true? What is not?

Lastly, does this bother believers in any way? If not, how does it not bother you? Of course, I won't care if I am reincarnated into something else, because I won't remember any of my past lives. I'll simply be starting a new life. Nonetheless, as I think of it now, I don't find it desirable. It doesn't seem natural to me. I would rather just be dead, and never come back in any form. What say you?

Speaking for both the Buddhist and Hindu (though primarily Buddhist) view? I'd say those who subscribe to said world view would question you on the premise to begin with. The "self" is irrelevant. The fact you're asking this question shows your ignorance of eastern philosophy, a Buddhist wouldn't bat an eyelid at the idea of the loss of "self" ( which is the point of your query here).
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Speaking for both the Buddhist and Hindu (though primarily Buddhist) view? I'd say those who subscribe to said world view would question you on the premise to begin with. The "self" is irrelevant. The fact you're asking this question shows your ignorance of eastern philosophy, a Buddhist wouldn't bat an eyelid at the idea of the loss of "self" ( which is the point of your query here).

I think we both know that with non-duality there is no self as there are no individuals relative to other individuals. However trying to communicate the process with people in a way they will understand is hard. Yes, self is an illusion but I don't want to complicate matters with semantics for them.

I think what I wrote is in all religions from Christianity to Hinduism if people are prepared to look for the deeper meaning inside whats written (in a lot of cases).

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Personally I think we'd all be better off if we just accepted the fact that you get one life and when it's over you're gone - no streets of gold, no coming back as a kitty cat, no higher plane, no spiritual existence, etc. etc. They are all just constructs of people who just can't handle the fact that eternity can get along without them.

Perhaps we might even have a better and more peaceful existence on this planet if we all accepted this fact.

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Personally I think we'd all be better off if we just accepted the fact that you get one life and when it's over you're gone - no streets of gold, no coming back as a kitty cat, no higher plane, no spiritual existence, etc. etc. They are all just constructs of people who just can't handle the fact that eternity can get along without them.

Perhaps we might even have a better and more peaceful existence on this planet if we all accepted this fact.

Presumably you can produce proof for this statement? Otherwise consideration of the possibilities of life after death, lives etc remains perfectly valid.

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Presumably you can produce proof for this statement? Otherwise consideration of the possibilities of life after death, lives etc remains perfectly valid.

Yes, I was wondering how things no one knows became facts.

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A thorough dissertaion on reincarnation I found. It's quite long, but the first page linked talks about the origin of reincarnation beliefs. 'A Short History of Reincarnation Teachings'.

But the real assumptions having to do with reincarnation come in the Puranic age, at the time that the Puranas were composed, and then of course, through Buddhism. So you might say that it reached a state of common acceptance, I would think, around 300 B.C., but not earlier. So it is old, but in its highly articulated form it is not so old and the way it's talked about now, that's recent; that's "Theosophical Society."

http://www.ccel.us/reincarnation.chap3.html

My view is, reincarnation is a belief that originated in the imagination of human beings.

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Presumably you can produce proof for this statement? Otherwise consideration of the possibilities of life after death, lives etc remains perfectly valid.

Given that our universe is governed by scientific laws and that nothing beyond that is needed to explain our existence and, also, given that has been zero observable evidence that a life after death exists, then I believe the burden of proof is on you, not me, to prove your claims.

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Given that our universe is governed by scientific laws and that nothing beyond that is needed to explain our existence and, also, given that has been zero observable evidence that a life after death exists, then I believe the burden of proof is on you, not me, to prove your claims.

I only saw you state that it is a fact that something unknown is known to not exist. No others made any claims; only ponderings. Pseudo knowledge (like saying scientific laws sufficiently explain the origin/existence of all that is) like your own attempts to hinder this option to ponder possibilities, and that's unfair. And no one here besides you made any claims of facts on the matter. So I don't think it's prudent to point fingers in this case. You are free to your own ideas on what may or may not exist, but when you're playing in the expansive realm of possibilities, don't expect to label the non-existence of possibilities as a fact, because people will be forced to call you out on this silly stance.

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I only saw you state that it is a fact that something unknown is known to not exist. No others made any claims; only ponderings. Pseudo knowledge (like saying scientific laws sufficiently explain the origin/existence of all that is) like your own attempts to hinder this option to ponder possibilities, and that's unfair. And no one here besides you made any claims of facts on the matter. So I don't think it's prudent to point fingers in this case. You are free to your own ideas on what may or may not exist, but when you're playing in the expansive realm of possibilities, don't expect to label the non-existence of possibilities as a fact, because people will be forced to call you out on this silly stance.

Play your words games and call it what you wish. I'm still waiting on observable and testable evidence of the afterlife.

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I'm still waiting on observable and testable evidence of the afterlife.

Much better!

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My biggest problem with the validity of reincarnation is that given the massive size of this Universe- and there could be multiple universes- this would mean hundreds of billions of species of intelligent life. And given that only a few billion humans have ever existed, it seems extremely unlikely that any human could even reincarnate back as a human again, much less likely within the same lifetime as the previous incarnation, and far less likely still to be in the same lineage as the previous incarnation. And yet, we hear so many stories of human-to-human reincarnation even now and no stories at all of alien-to-human reincarnation. This alone, besides the many other fatal flaws in the logic of reincarnation, disproves its existence.

Edited by Ashyne

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