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Dowdy

US Marine Kills Wounded Prisoner

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BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. military said Tuesday it is investigating the videotaped fatal shooting of a wounded man by a U.S. Marine in a mosque in Fallujah. Iraqis condemned the act as "cowardice" and "something forbidden in Islam."

Investigators will determine whether the Marine acted in self-defense against what a spokesman described as an "enemy combatant."

read story here

anyone see the irony in the first statement

Although, i have seen the clip. It wasn't self defense - the prisoner didn't make any sudden movement, he just shot him

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The thing that surprises me is (Why this one?) There have been a number of incidents whereby US soldiers have killed wounded 'enemy'.

I recently saw newsreel of US marines taking turns to fire at some poor man laying wounded and in obvious pain some yards from the troops. One can clearly see the missed shots hitting the ground near the man...Then a cheer goes up when he is eventually struck and lies lifeless. Next footage is of the young soldier who's bullet hit. "It was a good feeling" he says smiling "awesome...Let's do it again"

I can imagine what would be said if that were a US soldier lying wounded and being shot..."MURDER"

Vimjams

ph34r.gif

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yes i see the irony.

If you have not been in a war or at least a fight were your life is in serious danger.

don't judge the actions of others and stereo type a large group for the actions of some.

when people are killing each other, its hard to play by the rules and not get carried away.

I have not seen this video. but there is often more to it.

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Iraqis condemned the act as "cowardice" and "something forbidden in Islam."

Ummm...yeah sure...

(Meanwhile in another part of Iraq, a bound female humanatarian aid worker is shot to death...by iraqis)

blink.gifrolleyes.gif

Yep, people die in war, people kill in war...it is a horrible thing. Having served in the Army and seen it first hand I can tell you that war is something that should be avoided at all costs as it has a tendancy to bring out the nasty side of everyone involved.

During combat people have to make life and death decisions that really shouldn't be making those decisions. The iraqi insurgents aren't exactly wearing uniforms and waving flags so it is hard to tell who is who. To be painfully blunt, I do not know if I would want to see a suspected insurgent get back up and run back to re-arm and shoot at my buddies. It is a tough call, and seeing a video clip hardly gives anyone here the understanding to know the entire situation.

Were they wrong to shoot an unarmed man? probably. The job of the Army is to go kill people, that is the bottom line. In every single war many people have died that did not deserve to die, that is one of the reasons why I was so against this war. It was a huge can of worms that so few people even understand, but yet seem to be so willing to fall back on...War is not pretty like you see in the movies, it is confusing and horrible, and you have to live the rest of your life knowing you killed people. It isn't good for anyone involved. Not the civilian caught in the middle, or the soldiers on either side...

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Man FB that is so prfound,

What you have just said i can completely agreee with.

I had a 'discution' yesterday with people who would not understand my point, i think i will direct them to your post as you have summed it up well.

I dont like wars or killing, i disagree with the war in iraq, but unfortunatly the war being fought over there is a dirty one where the combatants are dressed in regular clothes, and attack without warning and when backs are turned.

We shouldnt be there, no. people have been sent, and wether you agree with the war or not. Just be glad its not you .

L_J

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well said Lego and Fluffy.

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Ultimately, as far as the trial goes, it will all come down to "Was the wounded man faking or not?"

If he was not actively surrendering (as many wounded instinctively do), then, as one soldier cried out, he might well have been faking death, and whichever way you wish to slice it, that would give the soldier a reason to shoot. Wether it is right or wrong or moral or immoral is irrelevent; by faking death, the soldier becomes an unknown danger, and the Army trains its soldier to deal with danger in a very direct manner.

If the wounded soldier was trying to surrender, however, that would indeed make this a violation of the rules of combat.

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I agree with fluffy and lego on everything except that we should not be there. Unless you were standing in that soldiers shoes who are we to judge.

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thing is vinjams its horrible , terrible howevere the only the day before a friend of the soldier in question was blown to pieces by an Iraqi pretending to be dead.

What wouldyou do?

Im sure as hell not gonna condemn this guy.

AN i like the cheek of the comment that this is not allowed in islam, but thats right if it were the other way around say a bound blindfolded starved western women its ok to do what you will because shes an infidel like the rest of us and not worthy of their p*** if we were on fire.

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wunarmdscissor Posted Today, 12:44 PM

  thing is vinjams its horrible , terrible howevere the only the day before a friend of the soldier in question was blown to pieces by an Iraqi pretending to be dead.

What wouldyou do?

Im sure as hell not gonna condemn this guy.

AN i like the cheek of the comment that this is not allowed in islam, but thats right if it were the other way around say a bound blindfolded starved western women its ok to do what you will because shes an infidel like the rest of us and not worthy of their p*** if we were on fire.

Bravo, well said. wunarmdscissor I know we have been on opposite sides of other issues but this time I am fully behind everything you said.

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There must be a prize up in Iraq for whoever can commit the ugliest act!

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The primary point remains this: Since this was an illegal invasion in the first place, the responsibility for what happened afterwards lies squarely on the shoulders of the American invaders. And the illusion that they are "liberators" is only that: an illusion. They are invaders killing people in their own country. And the Iraqis know this. The article below is a good summary of the situation:

"First, and most important, the people of Fallujah hate the Americans and support the guerrillas (even if they may have complaints about much of what they do). This means that as soon as the people return, so will the resistance, hidden from US view because virtually all the guerrillas are residents of Fallujah with supporters in the community. They will not be turned over to the US or to Iraqi police, and they will therefore begin to mount attacks on whoever is left to guard the US-installed local government."

http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK20Ak01.html

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so hein , was Iraq in breach of UN resolutions?

Just a yes or no ....

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I heard that the Marine in this video had a guy in his unit killed like the day before by a wounded enemy who pretended to be dead and blew him up with a grenade. I've never served in the army or any situation like that, but I imagine you get pretty close with the people in your unit, so I imagine that would p*** them off and make them not trust these "wounded" enemies. But tha's just what I read somewhere, I don't remember where.

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so hein , was Iraq in breach of UN resolutions?

Just a yes or no ....

363541[/snapback]

Israel has been in breach of countless UN resolutions for decades. They DO have nuclear weapons and God only knows what else. Do you think America should invade Israel, engage in street battles in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, shoot unarmed, dying Israelis who resisted this occupation, and replace their government with one democratically appointed by the Americans?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

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Yes

Bet u didnt see that comin , i dont see everything in black and white, i dont even agree with the war in Iraq as it was carrioed out, but its always teh same with the anti/pro camps , they only see things in black and white this way or that way never the third way.

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Yes

Bet u didnt see that comin , i dont see everything in black and white, i dont even agree with the war in Iraq as it was carrioed out, but its always teh same with the anti/pro camps , they only see things in black and white this way or that way never the third way.

363561[/snapback]

I do believe in trying to see both sides of the coin. The difference between us seems to be that I do not accept American unilateralism. Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.

Respect is earned, not imposed through the barrel of a gun. Especially not by shooting unarmed, dying people. And certainly not by targeting civilians:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6356.htm

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and the UN has earned the respect of by ***** footing around countries like Sudan, Zimbabwe and Iraq????

come on who else is gonna do it?#

as much as i hate george bush , we need america and it would be america who would be the first country the world turned to for help .

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The primary point remains this: Since this was an illegal invasion in the first place,

Don't agree with that premise. Rest of argument moot unless the first premise is True. Didn't answer wunarm either, just asked another quest avoiding answering.

They are invaders killing people in their own country.

Dont agree with that premise. Rest of argument moot unless first premise is True. French nationals fighting with insurgents in Iraq are Iraqis? Perfect logic based on false premise can only lead to perfectly logical fallicy.

"First, and most important, the people of Fallujah hate the Americans and support the guerrillas (even if they may have complaints about much of what they do).

virtually all the guerrillas are residents of Fallujah with supporters in the community.

That's kinda confusing to me. When Afghanistan was "liberated", and the wounded fled to Iraq... and reports of insurgents coming from many countries (meaning they're not spread out across the world so much doing damage elsewhere)... It's almost as nonsensical as some of my ramblings, but at least those make sense in my head... I can't make sense out of that. Usually I can see other sides even if I don't agree with them. Maybe someone can explain...

My opinion that the citizenry of each city, of Iraq as a whole are sick of fear and war and oppression... cause I think it's just human nature to get sick of that stuff and to yearn to be free... just as it's natural for those in power to want to aquire more power. And can't judge by what's shown in the video beca

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Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.

Blamed if we do something, blamed if we don't. We so prosperous and powerful it's our duty, and we so uppity and rich and imperialistic we need to keep out of people's affairs... wonder why I think isolationist at times... wonder why it pops in my head... damned if do, damned if don't... but, if people saying anywhere they want to blow up US citizens... don't care. Kill em first before they kill my kids, soon to be wife, and other loved ones like 9/11. No more Hitlers? No more 9/11's. Don't have to be al-Quaaida or whatever to be a target. Just have to say you want to kill a bunch of my countrymen and start training people to do just that. Boom. I'm tired now... was wired from coffee but now just tired...

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Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.

Kill em first before they kill my kids, soon to be wife, and other loved ones like 9/11. No more Hitlers? No more 9/11's.

363612[/snapback]

Tired argument. I simply can not believe there are still Americans around trying to convince the world that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. You brought 9/11 on yourself by supporting a right-wing regime in Israel carry out the same kind of war crimes that you are now perpetrating in Iraq.

And please stop flattering yourself. America does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world, or even the second highest.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2004rank.html

So stop thinking that we are jealous of what you have. You have very little to be jealous of, and lately a lot to be ashamed of.

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i also cant stand the attitude of celumnaz.

Kill em first? eh , then you mention hitler in the same breathe.

Tell me exactly when did america eneter the 2nd world war .

Was it at the start?? no

was it after a year?? no

was it after 2 years ?? no

was it 3 years ?? bingo.

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dont get all high and mighty on us its not all black and white.

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i also cant stand the attitude of celumnaz.

Kill em first? eh , then you mention hitler in the same breathe.

Tell me exactly when did america eneter the 2nd world war .

Was it at the start?? no

was it after a year?? no

was it after 2 years ?? no

was it 3 years ?? bingo.

363646[/snapback]

Exactly, and that's because-like in the 1st war-US wanted to make the most profit and have the less damage. The word "ally" has never had true meaning for US, and that's the sad truth. It's a commong knowledge what IBM did in WW2, not to mention : (from here and here

American corporations invested heavily in Nazi Germany, and many like General Motors and Ford had factories there, which also used slave labor and produced war materials for the Nazis. US corporate investment in Germany accelerated rapidly after Hitler came to power. Investment increased 48.5% between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe. American bombers deliberately avoided hitting these US factories, and they received compensation from the American taxpayer for any damage after the war. US oil companies sold oil to the Nazis and oil on credit to the fascists in Spain.

Many American capitalists were openly sympathetic to the Nazis. Henry Ford wrote a book called The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem, and he is mentioned in Mein Kampf. James Mooney, the General Motors executive in charge of European operations, was awarded the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle by Adolph Hitler. There were op-ed pieces by Nazis like Hermann Goehring in Hearst newspapers in the United States.

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no just always the bad guy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4008761.stm

doesn't matter what discussion is taking place, or what good, or if we were asked or not, damned if do, damned if don't.

high and mighty? It's others saying that about the US, not me. I hear things "oh they so big and all that, they can take a hickey here or there, they so imperialistic they deserved 9/11"

Now WW2 is our fault. it's all our fault. Saddam/Bin Laden/al-Queda/Palestinian connections don't exsist. heh. ok. rhetoric matches, smells like a fish, looks like a fish, acts like a fish, meetings of fish documented, payment to fish by fish documented but ok...

don't like wun's attitude either lol, but that's ok. if were RL I'd have a black eye by now staring at stars. has happened, will happen again I'm sure. extreme sarcasm eminates. Love the support for the mentality that got Leon Klinghoffer.

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