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keithisco

Catalonia vote:

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The longer you deny the people a voice over independence, the more support the call will receive... WAKE UP MADRID! before it is too late and the Province simply declares UDI

An informal vote on independence for Catalonia has shown more than 80% in favour, officials say.

The non-binding vote went ahead after Spain's constitutional court ruled out holding a formal referendum in the autonomous north-eastern region.

More than two million people out of an estimated 5.4 million eligible voters took part in the ballot.

Catalan leader Artur Mas hailed the poll "a great success" that should pave the way for a formal referendum

Source (BBC): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29982960

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We have to look at the turnout, seeing that the vote was pointless, more than half of those eligible to vote didn't vote. and the polls seem to show, 50% in favour of Independence. It does seem if they held a referendum the vote/ result would be close. If the BBC article is anything to go by.

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I agree that the vote in itself held no weight for the Spanish Govt. .. but it was an exercise in democracy that the PM simply refused to allow for the Catalans officially.

Catalunia would of course face the same issues that an Independent Scotland would have faced in terms of having to re-apply for entry into the EU and the issues that would arise from making an application (Spain would veto their application).

Of course, there is no need to apply for EU membership, as with the UK - you could simply negotiate bi - lateral agreements with those nations that you want to do business with (the UK has several bi - lateral agreements outside of the EU). There is no need to follow the Swiss of Norwegian examples of negotiating with the EU for access to all of its member markets because it means adopting EU Laws and paying through the nose to have no say in the single market machinations.

The EU has bi - lateral agreements with NAFTA, South American Nations and China, yet none of those have been required to adopt EU Laws (nor would they ever accept such a requirement).

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I think at the end of the day the Spanish Government will have to hold the independence referendum, regardless of the outcome, otherwise its going to lead to greater problems down the road. - The United Kingdom done it, we actually put 307 years of Union on the line. a monumental decision in the History of the Kingdom.

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The longer you deny the people a voice over independence, the more support the call will receive... WAKE UP MADRID! before it is too late and the Province simply declares UDI

Source (BBC): http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-29982960

Bearing in mind they can't respect Democracy in Gibraltar I think there's little chance of them respecting it in Catalonia.

I'd say lets liberate the Catalonians but then their like minded pal Argentina would probably try annexing the Falklands again. Must be something in Spanish blood lol.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Lets not forget that Gibraltar has been British since 1713 (Treaty of Utrecht) and the people were given a legally binding referendum on whether or not to allow sovereignty to be shared with Spain - the result? 98.48% said NO, on a turnout of 87.9%.

Under Franco Catalans suffered terrible deprivations so have little to no trust in the Madrid Government.

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epic post --- thank you @Moont

 

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58 minutes ago, bee said:

 

epic post --- thank you @Moont

 

She just motivated me to do some reading on the topic.  I had no idea.

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On 24/09/2017 at 8:43 PM, Moont said:

True. I endured such horrid times as a child. And as a child I could not understand why the teachers hit, punished and humiliated me if I spoke my native language, or even if I spoke Spanish with a  - to them - "ridiculous" accent, making me feel inferior just because I was born in Barcelona, hiding any books written in Catalan, risking arrest and imprisonment just for being in posssession of those. Even a prayer book in Catalan was deemed to be "subversive". I was glad when Franco died, hopeful for a nascent democracy. How wrong I was, thinking we no longer would suffer like we did under  Franco. So we suffered. Not only under Franco. The PP has persitently tried to take autonomous government from Catalonia, taking not only most of our revenue with next to nothing in exchange, but also even triyng to erase the  name of out language under some ridiculous re-denomination, changing the Catalan word referring to the variety spoken near Aragon and the Pyrenees, re-naming the langiage as  LAPAO and LAPAPYP, acronyms  referring to the "language accidentally spoken in the region between Catalonia,  Aragon and in the Pre-Pyrenees and Pyrenees".  What an idiotic  effort to erase us! As if instead of speaking English, we were speaking " the dominating  language spoken in the British Isles, Ireland and the former American, Australian and Canadian colonies". Fortunately it lasted only from 2013 to 2016.  Yes, that very recent. We are now in 2017. so...

Not to mention the continued refusal to negotiate and meet, to grant equal treatment of Catalonia and other autonomies, taking from us former competences in education and health and other fields as a punishment for refusing to stop teaching Catalan, increasing Spanish hours and an indoctrinating National (Spanish) HIstory to the exclusion of that of other autonomies (not just Catalonia), eliminating philosophy from the curriculum... Oh, and no, in our schools we don't indoctribnate and forbid Spanish. But some feel offended because we keep speaking Catalan. Re-centralizing the wayward autonomic governments, in short: Also,  the Spanish boycotts to Catalan products. Or the hateful comments after the most recent yihaddist attempts in Barcelona and Cambrils this late August. implying  "what a pity not enough Catalans died," wishing Catalans had been gassed like the Jews...  No wonder we Catalans are fed up. We wanted dialogue and were given silence or derision instead. BTW, they - the central government - have systematically ignored the historical  memory laws, stolen documents proving dictastorship atrocities and current corruption - how come most of the most important documents were "accidentally"! burned in a suspicious fire or made to disappear?

When we decided if we were not accepted as equals, we wanted out, silence and derision became threats.and continued refusal to meet and talk things peacefully. Now we are serious about independence they still refuse to talk and illegally  keep creating anti-Catalan laws: Committing deliberate irregularities  the military central state police Guardia CIvil arrest our local politicians for claiming the right to have a referendum to vote for or against independence. We are treated like criminals. Since when VOTING is an undemocratic crime against democracy? Since when wanting to VOTE in a lawful, democratic way is a crime? Our politiicans are arrested as if they were criminals for claiming freedom of speech, our voting ballots are confiscated, out homes searched without a proper warrant and without following lawful procedure, not calling a Senate meeting as contemplated in the 1978 Constitution we were forced to sign to avoid a new dictatorship, hoping for a re-negotiation later..  Better an autonomy than inconditional submission.

And yes,  they - the centralist  central govenrment -  are p***sed that so far we respond with peaceful demonstrations, flowers and smiles to their police harassment, not responding with violence to provocations. We are stubborn but peaceful the Ghandi way.  I pray we continue to be so. Had the Spanish central government acted intelligently via negotiation instead of enforcing bullying tactics, I am sure a vote would have come out with a no to independence. By bullying us into submission, they may achieve just the opposite . a yes to independence vote. If we are not massively arrested before, that is. As for the legality of the referendum...

Was the  secession of the former US colonies from the UK legal, from a British point of view? Was Rose Park's refusal to comply with unjust apartheid laws legal? Who said that unjust laws should be disobeyed? I wish we could have had an independence process the Czeh way,a modelic separation. Oh but now I think of it, theirs was a divorce agreed by both sides, whereas ours would be a unilateral one where the bully husband refuses to let go of the wayward, rebellious, mistreated wife. A "Mine or the tomb's", sort of sick relationship...  Criminalizing the legally recognized (by the UN and the EU) right to self-rule, criminalizing the right to VOTE DEMOCRATICALLY, seizing autonomous power, arresting those who claim for freedom of speech, is not the way,. Since when asking for a vote is undemocratic? Unlawful according to unjust laws, maybe, Like refusing to comply with apartheid, But undemocratic? Nay. No way.

The Referendum was not agreed or granted by the Spanish government so the actions of the authorities in Catalonia are deemed illegal. including the spending of public money to organise the vote. - If the vote was to go ahead regardless of the outcome the result wouldn't be accepted by central Government or recognised the world over - What would then happen? would Catalonia declare a de facto independence?

 

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On 9/24/2017 at 8:43 PM, Moont said:

True. I endured such horrid times as a child. And as a child I could not understand why the teachers hit, punished and humiliated me if I spoke my native language, or even if I spoke Spanish with a  - to them - "ridiculous" accent, making me feel inferior just because I was born in Barcelona, hiding any books written in Catalan, risking arrest and imprisonment just for being in posssession of those. Even a prayer book in Catalan was deemed to be "subversive". I was glad when Franco died, hopeful for a nascent democracy. How wrong I was, thinking we no longer would suffer like we did under  Franco. So we suffered. Not only under Franco. The PP has persitently tried to take autonomous government from Catalonia, taking not only most of our revenue with next to nothing in exchange, but also even triyng to erase the  name of out language under some ridiculous re-denomination, changing the Catalan word referring to the variety spoken near Aragon and the Pyrenees, re-naming the langiage as  LAPAO and LAPAPYP, acronyms  referring to the "language accidentally spoken in the region between Catalonia,  Aragon and in the Pre-Pyrenees and Pyrenees".  What an idiotic  effort to erase us! As if instead of speaking English, we were speaking " the dominating  language spoken in the British Isles, Ireland and the former American, Australian and Canadian colonies". Fortunately it lasted only from 2013 to 2016.  Yes, that very recent. We are now in 2017. so...

Not to mention the continued refusal to negotiate and meet, to grant equal treatment of Catalonia and other autonomies, taking from us former competences in education and health and other fields as a punishment for refusing to stop teaching Catalan, increasing Spanish hours and an indoctrinating National (Spanish) HIstory to the exclusion of that of other autonomies (not just Catalonia), eliminating philosophy from the curriculum... Oh, and no, in our schools we don't indoctribnate and forbid Spanish. But some feel offended because we keep speaking Catalan. Re-centralizing the wayward autonomic governments, in short: Also,  the Spanish boycotts to Catalan products. Or the hateful comments after the most recent yihaddist attempts in Barcelona and Cambrils this late August. implying  "what a pity not enough Catalans died," wishing Catalans had been gassed like the Jews...  No wonder we Catalans are fed up. We wanted dialogue and were given silence or derision instead. BTW, they - the central government - have systematically ignored the historical  memory laws, stolen documents proving dictastorship atrocities and current corruption - how come most of the most important documents were "accidentally"! burned in a suspicious fire or made to disappear?

When we decided if we were not accepted as equals, we wanted out, silence and derision became threats.and continued refusal to meet and talk things peacefully. Now we are serious about independence they still refuse to talk and illegally  keep creating anti-Catalan laws: Committing deliberate irregularities  the military central state police Guardia CIvil arrest our local politicians for claiming the right to have a referendum to vote for or against independence. We are treated like criminals. Since when VOTING is an undemocratic crime against democracy? Since when wanting to VOTE in a lawful, democratic way is a crime? Our politiicans are arrested as if they were criminals for claiming freedom of speech, our voting ballots are confiscated, out homes searched without a proper warrant and without following lawful procedure, not calling a Senate meeting as contemplated in the 1978 Constitution we were forced to sign to avoid a new dictatorship, hoping for a re-negotiation later..  Better an autonomy than inconditional submission.

And yes,  they - the centralist  central govenrment -  are p***sed that so far we respond with peaceful demonstrations, flowers and smiles to their police harassment, not responding with violence to provocations. We are stubborn but peaceful the Ghandi way.  I pray we continue to be so. Had the Spanish central government acted intelligently via negotiation instead of enforcing bullying tactics, I am sure a vote would have come out with a no to independence. By bullying us into submission, they may achieve just the opposite . a yes to independence vote. If we are not massively arrested before, that is. As for the legality of the referendum...

Was the  secession of the former US colonies from the UK legal, from a British point of view? Was Rose Park's refusal to comply with unjust apartheid laws legal? Who said that unjust laws should be disobeyed? I wish we could have had an independence process the Czeh way,a modelic separation. Oh but now I think of it, theirs was a divorce agreed by both sides, whereas ours would be a unilateral one where the bully husband refuses to let go of the wayward, rebellious, mistreated wife. A "Mine or the tomb's", sort of sick relationship...  Criminalizing the legally recognized (by the UN and the EU) right to self-rule, criminalizing the right to VOTE DEMOCRATICALLY, seizing autonomous power, arresting those who claim for freedom of speech, is not the way,. Since when asking for a vote is undemocratic? Unlawful according to unjust laws, maybe, Like refusing to comply with apartheid, But undemocratic? Nay. No way.

Shades of Ireland's cultural and political struggle against British imperialism. The native Irish were second-hand subjects in their own country for centuries.    

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On 9/26/2017 at 11:59 AM, stevewinn said:

The Referendum was not agreed or granted by the Spanish government so the actions of the authorities in Catalonia are deemed illegal. including the spending of public money to organise the vote. - If the vote was to go ahead regardless of the outcome the result wouldn't be accepted by central Government or recognised the world over - What would then happen? would Catalonia declare a de facto independence?

 

A referendum could be "Crowd-Funded" of course thereby removing the "improper use of public funds" charge. It would then be behoven for volunteers to set-up polling stations on free-access public land which would negate any claim that public buildings were being used. Another possibility is for individual citizens to allow their houses or land to be used for the purposes of polling.

Cataluña has put out a call for Independent International Observers to oversee the Referendum polling and I read today that teachers and students are using social media to inform Catalans which schools will be opened to allow voting to happen, I do not, however, believe that Rajoy will permit voting...he will send in the thousands of Policia Nacional now on leased cruise liners near Barcelona to disrupt the voting and arrest anyone who goes against his will.

Perhaps the only way forward will be UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence)  but that carries its own problems.

I wish the Catalans good luck for the 1st of October, it will be a test both of their resolve, and of Rajoy's ability to understand what living in the 21st century means i.e. a resort to State violence against its own people will be met with international condemnation.

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20 hours ago, keithisco said:

A referendum could be "Crowd-Funded" of course thereby removing the "improper use of public funds" charge. It would then be behoven for volunteers to set-up polling stations on free-access public land which would negate any claim that public buildings were being used. Another possibility is for individual citizens to allow their houses or land to be used for the purposes of polling.

Cataluña has put out a call for Independent International Observers to oversee the Referendum polling and I read today that teachers and students are using social media to inform Catalans which schools will be opened to allow voting to happen, I do not, however, believe that Rajoy will permit voting...he will send in the thousands of Policia Nacional now on leased cruise liners near Barcelona to disrupt the voting and arrest anyone who goes against his will.

Perhaps the only way forward will be UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence)  but that carries its own problems.

I wish the Catalans good luck for the 1st of October, it will be a test both of their resolve, and of Rajoy's ability to understand what living in the 21st century means i.e. a resort to State violence against its own people will be met with international condemnation.

unless the Spanish government agree to the referendum it will lack legitimacy and not be recognised internationally so a complete waste of time in my view. - The Referendum itself, the Spanish Government by their actions are showing how not to deal with it.

It'll be interesting come tomorrow (1st October) but once the decision was taken by the Government to block the referendum how do you go about resolving the worsening political and territorial dispute? If Catalan parliament declare independence a few days after the vote i fear violence and Spain as a History of it. inevitable civil unrest will follow... I do wonder will other nations start having issues of their own. 

Im watching with interest the actions of the EU as to what action they do take if the situation gets out of hand. We might possibly see the blue print of dealing with a rebellion in one of the provinces of the future Federalist; United states of Europe.

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Not a good day to day for Spain with the pictures coming out of Catalonia of riot police removing peaceful people from polling stations. im trying to think of the last time i seen this happening in Europe?

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Catalans getting the full "mailed fist" treatment from central authorities.

https://www.thelocal.es/20171001/live-clashes-at-polling-stations-as-catalonia-holds-independence-referendum

 
Quote

 

Clashes broke out at polling stations across the northeastern region as police attempted to seize ballot boxes and prevent the 'illegal' vote on independence.
  • Voting is going ahead across Catalonia today
  • Riot police charged crowds of people at polling stations in Barcelona attempting to disperse crowds with what appeared to be rounds of rubber bullets.
  • Carles Puigdemont managed to cast his vote just before police moved in on the polling station and closed it down
  • At least 38 people have been injured in clashes with police

 

  •  

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In UK we gave the Scots a vote. Shouldn't Spain be doing the same for Catalonia?

With things turning violent there is the possibility of Spain having a new civil war. Although I still think thats a long way off from where things are at the moment.

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I hope the whinging Scots are watching this despicable (IMO) behaviour from their beloved European friends (given that they would much rather be in a union with Spain than England) .....

What harm is a referendum when its not binding?   What next?  Ban all internet polls ........ :o

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26 minutes ago, Essan said:

I hope the whinging Scots are watching this despicable (IMO) behaviour from their beloved European friends (given that they would much rather be in a union with Spain than England) .....

What harm is a referendum when its not binding?   What next?  Ban all internet polls ........ :o

Away 'n' bile yer heed.

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2 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Away 'n' bile yer heed.

:D 

btw I will be up your way next August - Runrigs last Dance :) 

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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Not a good day to day for Spain with the pictures coming out of Catalonia of riot police removing peaceful people from polling stations. im trying to think of the last time i seen this happening in Europe?

Yeah, the emerging footage is going to be a public relations disaster for the Spanish government:

Police use batons on crowd in Barcelona

Looks like they just start laying into the balding guy in the black top for the hell of it. Nice touch pulling the young girl in the green top towards them so they can get in a few more hits too... brave... :rolleyes:

I don't see why they didn't just let the vote go ahead and not acknowledge the result. Seemed a better option than this mess. As things are, they're going to garner a lot of support from the social media crowd, many of whom likely don't even understand all the issues.

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20 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Yeah, the emerging footage is going to be a public relations disaster for the Spanish government:

Police use batons on crowd in Barcelona

Looks like they just start laying into the balding guy in the black top for the hell of it. Nice touch pulling the young girl in the green top towards them so they can get in a few more hits too... brave... :rolleyes:

I don't see why they didn't just let the vote go ahead and not acknowledge the result. Seemed a better option than this mess. As things are, they're going to garner a lot of support from the social media crowd, many of whom likely don't even understand all the issues.

I wonder what course of action they'll take if the Catalan government announce independence once the vote it counted.

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On 26/09/2017 at 6:59 AM, stevewinn said:

The Referendum was not agreed or granted by the Spanish government so the actions of the authorities in Catalonia are deemed illegal. including the spending of public money to organise the vote. - If the vote was to go ahead regardless of the outcome the result wouldn't be accepted by central Government or recognised the world over - What would then happen? would Catalonia declare a de facto independence?

 

Legal or not, how long can their voices be ignored.I wish them all the best.

Is Junker going to sit this one out whilst the Spanish Government brutalizes it's citizens.

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On 10/11/2014 at 8:45 PM, stevewinn said:

We have to look at the turnout, seeing that the vote was pointless, more than half of those eligible to vote didn't vote. and the polls seem to show, 50% in favour of Independence. It does seem if they held a referendum the vote/ result would be close. If the BBC article is anything to go by.

Well, that’s Brexit covered, now ... what about the Catalan vote?

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6 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I wonder what course of action they'll take if the Catalan government announce independence once the vote it counted.

They’ll ignore it, and then use anti-terrorism laws to lock up the leadership.

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7 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I wonder what course of action they'll take if the Catalan government announce independence once the vote it counted.

I guess we'll find out soon enough:

Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

"Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.

He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%."

More on the violent scenes too:

Catalonia: Video shows violence as police tackle voters

This is shocking...

You see one of the police - I hesitate to use the word "men" - jump in the air and slam his foot down on someone on the ground, women being dragged away by the hair, etc. As one reporter on Sky News commented earlier, he has never seen violence from law enforcement on this scale in recent history, even during football riots, where they're tackling violent hooligans.

I've been to Spain several times, including the Catalan region, and these are just regular people like you and me, wanting to make their voice heard.

With everything else that's happening in Europe right now, this situation does not look good :hmm:

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