Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
keithisco

Catalonia vote:

93 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

An interesting point Chortle. However, bear in mind that the charter you mention, and the courts, are nothing to do with the European Union. They are part of the Council of Europe, a treaty organisation that is entirely seperate from - and preceeded - the EU as we know it. 

Whilst the EU takes the CoE seriously as an advisory body, it would not be a Crie de Cour for the European Union to interfere with internal Spanish practices, in and of itself. 

Interesting. I wonder, if there is some sense to the lack of acknowledgement after all. As it is the role of the ECoHR to make rulings in relation to violations of human rights, typically public bodies rarely step outside their scope it does not seem wildly unrealistic that the aformentioned comments might be an expected response. I was fairly astounded by the response of the establishment (and many member states) -or rather lack thereof. Particularly given the readily available media and social media coverage.

Presumably the possibility of Spain vs *insert name here* as a legal challenge in response to the violation of individual rights still remains?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
9 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The EU are re-energised in going after American firms for what they say is tax avoidance. Its funny how Ireland have said Apple owe them nothing and the same with Luxembourg with Amazon, yet the EU are telling the likes of Ireland to collect a tax regardless.

But why all of a sudden is the EU re-doubling their efforts. - well look at Spain. if Catalonia declare independence as expected it will plunge the Euro into a crisis. -  and what of the contributions from Spain to the EU? Catalonia is one, if not the richest region in Spain, if they declare independence they will drop out of the EU. The crisis in Spain as already weakened the Euro on the back of the referendum result, imagine what happens if they declare independence. Catalonia makes up 20% of the Spanish economy.

The EU is not having a good time of it, Still recovering from the economic crash of 2008, 9 years later still printing €80 Billion a month to keep it a float, high unemployment and even higher youth unemployment in the poorer members, embroiled in conflict with Russia over Ukraine on its eastern flank, borders going up all over the place thanks to a self inflicted migrant crisis with Merkels millions, threatening Members with legal action sanctions and fines if they don't accept migrant quotas against their wishes, terrorism spreading through the porous borders, Its politically lost a member the worlds 5th largest economy and their single biggest trading market, is going to lose a net contributor and so 13% of its budget, Its World market share falling to day at an historic all time low of 16% (33% in 1970) and will continue to fall to 13% in March 2019.

And yet cast your mind back to the state of the Nation Speech by EU President Jean Claude Juncker not one mention of any of the above or how they are even going to address it let alone how they are going to fix it, they are in total denial. instead grandiose plans where proposed, the bunker mentality was clear for all who want to see it. It was reminiscent of the old Soviet days proclaiming a bountiful harvest before the harvest was even brought in. Its marvellous we live in such times, Historians will write about these times and where the beginning of the end all started, we are witnessing the death throes of the European Union and possibly the Birth of New Nations (Catalonia) as the Empire collapses.

On the upside, if Catalonia does somehow manage to peacefully gain independence, I can think of one nation that will be more than happy to have solid trade relations with them when the EU gets churlish :lol:

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Parsec said:

Unfortunately that's not the case. 

If Europe was a political union, that would be different and I would agree. 

But as things stand, the EU can't do much about it, if not complaining as someone suggested. 

Europa is a political union as a matter of fact as is explained in following link under point 3.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_union

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite its domestic non-interference "prime directive" It appears Vice President Frans Timmermans in a speach to the commission, has now described the referendum in Catalonia as illegal -but more concerningly- has effectively offered support in commenting that the actions of the Spanish police were justified. :unsure:

Apparently beating defenceless Old Ladies is appropriate and proportionate means to maintain the rule of law to the commission.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well of course they would. They'll be keen to keep options open for anything to décourager les autres from trying to emulate Brexit, wouldn't they. They're trying to see how making it as difficult as possible for countries to secede works first, but keeping options open for anyone else that might wish to try the same.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Chortle said:

Interesting. I wonder, if there is some sense to the lack of acknowledgement after all. As it is the role of the ECoHR to make rulings in relation to violations of human rights, typically public bodies rarely step outside their scope it does not seem wildly unrealistic that the aformentioned comments might be an expected response. I was fairly astounded by the response of the establishment (and many member states) -or rather lack thereof. Particularly given the readily available media and social media coverage.

Presumably the possibility of Spain vs *insert name here* as a legal challenge in response to the violation of individual rights still remains?

Well, perhaps... but I struggle with that one. At the end of the day, which - precisely - "human rights" have been violated ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right to self determination and to not live under an authoritarian regime? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One could argue that the people of Catelonia DO have self-determination, in that they can vote for their national government, and also for their local government. So far as I am aware, there is no "Human Right" not to live under an authoritarian regime, providing only that this does not impact on the other enumerated Rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Technically, it's a complex issue - as are most things with European politics.

It's hard to take anyone seriously who throws the word democracy around while not condemning the Spanish Government's handling of this situation though; Catalan officials being arrested in the run up to the referendum, excessive violence used by the police... I see today that the Catalan police chief is being accused of sedition against the state:

Catalan police chief in Madrid court in 'sedition' probe

"The Catalan chief of police, Josep Lluis Trapero, is appearing before a judge in Madrid on suspicion of sedition against the state.

His Mossos d'Esquadra force is accused of failing to protect Spanish national police from protesters ahead of the 1 October independence referendum."

From what I saw in the footage, it was the other way around; the Catalan police were actually protecting citizens from excessive force employed by the Spanish national police, as were other service personal, such as Catalan firefighters.

It actually makes me pretty proud of how Britain handled the Scottish referendum, i.e. peacefully and democratically, even though it wouldn't have been in the nation's best interest to see us divided.

Imagine the scenes we've witnessed in Catalonia in Scottish towns and cities. Where would loyalties lie? With Britain as a whole, or with ordinary people being abused by the government? As a human being, I'd have to go with the people, regardless of the politics.

Edited by LV-426
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 10/05/2017 at 9:00 AM, RoofGardener said:

Well, perhaps... but I struggle with that one. At the end of the day, which - precisely - "human rights" have been violated ?

I think a compelling argument could be made for the following:

Article 1: The Right to Human Dignity
Article 6: The Right to Liberty or Security of Person
Article 11: Freedom of Expression and Information
Article 12: Freedom of Assembly and Association
Article 54: Prohibition of Abuse of Rights

Edited by Chortle
cant spell for petnuts
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LV-426 said:

His Mossos d'Esquadra force is accused of failing to protect Spanish national police from protesters ahead of the 1 October independence referendum."

From what I saw in the footage, it was the other way around; the Catalan police were actually protecting citizens from excessive force employed by the Spanish national police, as were other service personal, such as Catalan firefighters.

I agree here. One question this raises is why would armed Paramilitary Police require protection?

Also it was my understanding that Mossos d'Esquadra were ordered by the nationals to stand down and give way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Chortle said:

I think a compelling argument could be made for the following:

Article 1: The Right to Human Dignity
Article 6: The Right to Liberty or Security of Person
Article 11: Freedom of Expression and Information
Article 12: Freedom of Assembly and Association
Article 54: Prohibition of Abuse of Rights

Non of those where infringed, in the terms they are written.

More worryingly; the Constitutional Court has suspended Catelonia's parliament !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

interesting move by Madrid suspending the Catalan Parliament to prevent them discussing, voting or declaring unilateral independence. Its seems by the premier Rajoy's comments that worse is to come if they continue.

Its up to the Government to uphold the law, trouble is we judged the Spanish by our standards and that's why people are shocked by the reaction by the Spanish government in the use of their police force and that's the key word - Force - they have a police force were we here in the UK we have policing by consent hence why our officers are not routinely armed.

Spain is now set on entering into a constitutional crisis, Its events like these that remind me of the benefit of living in a country without a written constitution.

Edited by stevewinn
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, LV-426 said:

"The Catalan chief of police, Josep Lluis Trapero, is appearing before a judge in Madrid on suspicion of sedition against the state.

His Mossos d'Esquadra force is accused of failing to protect Spanish national police from protesters ahead of the 1 October independence referendum."

The duty of the police is to protect the police?!  

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Non of those where infringed, in the terms they are written.

More worryingly; the Constitutional Court has suspended Catelonia's parliament !

I guess thats a matter for the courts to determine. Local Authorities in England providing care to disabled Adults have been taken to the ECHR for far less.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Spanish government is weak as a result of the last election, i know its easy to be wise after the event but the Spanish government has made a right mess which goes without saying but surely after the illegal Catalonia vote the Government should have looked at the numbers, i believe only 43% of those eligible to vote actually turned out to vote. So the Spanish government had 57% of the electorate to play with, win the hearts and minds so to speak.

No we have a situation whereby the 57% of those in Catalonia who never voted are at the mercy of an illegal vote, if a great number of the 57% where against leaving Spain and thought they where best served by a united Spain their minds might now have changed by the actions of the police beating their fellow citizens up. Its a complete monumental balls up.

Its interesting and i wonder how it will all play out. the best option has to be, the central government wipes the slate clean by resigning and holding a national election. this then allows for fresh talks and a solution to be found. if that happens they could end up with a legally agreed future date for a referendum. but part of me feels the government might sense this as an opportunity to good to miss and a chance seizing back powers once granted to the Catalan parliment.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The Spanish government is weak as a result of the last election, i know its easy to be wise after the event but the Spanish government has made a right mess which goes without saying but surely after the illegal Catalonia vote the Government should have looked at the numbers, i believe only 43% of those eligible to vote actually turned out to vote. So the Spanish government had 57% of the electorate to play with, win the hearts and minds so to speak.

No we have a situation whereby the 57% of those in Catalonia who never voted are at the mercy of an illegal vote, if a great number of the 57% where against leaving Spain and thought they where best served by a united Spain their minds might now have changed by the actions of the police beating their fellow citizens up. Its a complete monumental balls up.

Its interesting and i wonder how it will all play out. the best option has to be, the central government wipes the slate clean by resigning and holding a national election. this then allows for fresh talks and a solution to be found. if that happens they could end up with a legally agreed future date for a referendum. but part of me feels the government might sense this as an opportunity to good to miss and a chance seizing back powers once granted to the Catalan parliment.

 

 

On balance, I'd agree Stevewinn. 

One quibble; you say that only 43% of those eligible to vote actually bothered to do so. However, that was set against a backdrop of the Federal police forcibly closing polling stations, and intimidating (or arresting) the people running polling stations. So many people may have INTENDED to vote, but have been physically prevented from doing so. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

On balance, I'd agree Stevewinn. 

One quibble; you say that only 43% of those eligible to vote actually bothered to do so. However, that was set against a backdrop of the Federal police forcibly closing polling stations, and intimidating (or arresting) the people running polling stations. So many people may have INTENDED to vote, but have been physically prevented from doing so. 

that is true, that's why it would have been better for the central government to allow the vote so they could gauge the actual numbers, but obviously they sent in the Police. and the picture is somewhat distorted.

I hear on the News something about the Spanish parliment triggering 155 of the constitution which allows for the Government to take over running of Catalonia and the use of troops in a security role.  :o

 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.