libstaK Posted November 24, 2014 #1 Share Posted November 24, 2014 This is a true tragedy and I can't in all honesty say the police were wrong in their behavior, when you consider the information that led them to the youngster included the fact that he was waving a gun and pointing it at people, the caller said "it was probably fake" but they really didn't know for sure, if you see the picture of the gun, it looks pretty damned real. At a distance, it would look even more real. What I really want to know is why are such real looking fakes being given to children to play with? This was an air gun, basically a toy marketed to youngsters. The result of this youngster having this toy, makes me feel quite sick. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/23/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 24, 2014 #2 Share Posted November 24, 2014 It's always sad when this kind of stuff happens. For one the officers should not have shot the kid, and secondly the kid shouldn't have been doing what he did. His family has my sympathy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud the mackem Posted November 24, 2014 #3 Share Posted November 24, 2014 The lad was doing wrong , but so were the Police. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libstaK Posted November 24, 2014 Author #4 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I guess my point is the kid would not have been doing what he did if some dumbass adult had not gifted him with a real looking toy gun and then let him run around in the park with it unsupervised. This kind of toy would make a great prop for a quick grab and dash hold up by any teen with a criminal mind too, it just shouldn't be out there. Edit to add: I'm flogging a dead horse aren't I? I mean there have to millions of "toy" guns in the hands of kids around the world at any given time, I guess it just seems all so senseless and a really stupid way for a kid to die. Edited November 24, 2014 by libstaK 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted November 24, 2014 #5 Share Posted November 24, 2014 There is no excuse for this kind of behavior from the youth, he knew what he was doing and knew the risks.......that time it was a fake gun, later on his his life if never stopped, I have very little doubt that it would have been a real one. BUT to kill him? no! the training the police should have gotten since all the gun incidents over the years, and baring in mind the fake gun incidents, then they should have been able to shoot at his arm or where ever it would take to disarm him. I am not a gun holder, is it really that difficult to shoot to unarm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 24, 2014 #6 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Yeah, I guess my point is the kid would not have been doing what he did if some dumbass adult had not gifted him with a real looking toy gun and then let him run around in the park with it unsupervised. This kind of toy would make a great prop for a quick grab and dash hold up by any teen with a criminal mind too, it just shouldn't be out there. The above. Plus this. dumbass adult Parents just aren't parents anymore. They're more like grown kids themselves. You've got a few real parents but from what I can tell (especially in my neighborhood) they are few and far between. Sad thing is that cops seem way to trigger happy here lately. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sakari Posted November 24, 2014 Popular Post #7 Share Posted November 24, 2014 You know what is sad. When I was growing up, we played " Cowboys and Indians ", and " Army ", and the neighborhood ran around with fake guns, shooting everyone....... No one killed anyone when they were older, and no one was scared of kids playing like that. Second, when we were around 12 years old ( starting ) we would walk 4 miles out into the hills, with our .22 Rifles in arm, through town. This was 1978, Reno/Sparks Nevada. This world sucks, I feel sorry for my grandkids. And, why would someone call 911, when they new the gun was probably a fake, and the kid was playing. Why not stop him yourself, tell him what could happen? Nope, be a ***** and call the police, when they should be out doing more important things......I blame the caller. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted November 24, 2014 #8 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Times change... it's time to put a BRIGHT YELLOW TIP on toy guns. Or some means of easily identifying it as a toy gun. That might solve a large percentage of the 'confusion'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted November 24, 2014 #9 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Times change... it's time to put a BRIGHT YELLOW TIP on toy guns. Or some means of easily identifying it as a toy gun. That might solve a large percentage of the 'confusion'? Then some genius would just put a BRIGHT YELLOW TIP on real guns and go a robbing ~ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendy Demon Posted November 24, 2014 #10 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Times change... it's time to put a BRIGHT YELLOW TIP on toy guns. Or some means of easily identifying it as a toy gun. That might solve a large percentage of the 'confusion'? No it wouldn't. It could be a flaming orange tip the size of a darned watermelon and the cops would still claim that they either didn't see it or thought it was a real gun. Let's face it, us "peasants" are merely prey in the eyes of the police. It doesn't matter if you are five years old or 110..you are nothing but a target to them, that is how they are trained. The only outcome they think there should be with shooting a weapon is death, not injury. Also, expecting a 12 year old to act all grown up is kinda silly, they will do dumb thing especially if they are scared. Furthermore, like Sakari mentioned, if the neighbor knew the gun was a toy then why did they call the police unless this was the outcome they wanted, knowing how trigger-happy the police are nowdays. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techlicious Posted November 24, 2014 #11 Share Posted November 24, 2014 The gun did have an orange tip, it was removed. I don't know how he got it but it is possible he could've used a gift card for the website Amazon without the consent of his parent. Why not use a taser? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendy Demon Posted November 24, 2014 #12 Share Posted November 24, 2014 The gun did have an orange tip, it was removed. I don't know how he got it but it is possible he could've used a gift card for the website Amazon without the consent of his parent. Why not use a taser? Of course no one ever thought to either ignore the call -considering the caller knew the weapon was fake- or have the parents go and get the child. That would have been to easy and wouldn't result in death and there is just no fun in that now, is there? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libstaK Posted November 24, 2014 Author #13 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Of course no one ever thought to either ignore the call -considering the caller knew the weapon was fake- or have the parents go and get the child. That would have been to easy and wouldn't result in death and there is just no fun in that now, is there? This kid was in a public park, we have no information from the article that he was known to the caller or any of the passers by - so there is no way for them to call the parents if they do not know who the kid or his parents are, he may not even have been from anywhere in the immediate neighbourhood. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techlicious Posted November 24, 2014 #14 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) This kid was in a public park, we have no information from the article that he was known to the caller or any of the passers by - so there is no way for them to call the parents if they do not know who the kid or his parents are, he may not even have been from anywhere in the immediate neighbourhood. He was with his sister and a friend. The officer had no clue he was a 12-year-old no clue it was a toy gun. Edited November 24, 2014 by Fox Mccloud 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel M. Posted November 24, 2014 #15 Share Posted November 24, 2014 In my opinion, toy companies are just as responsible as the police officer and the parents. For many years, toy companies have made toy guns look like the real thing so that kids would feel all grown up. Well, society has reached a point where we need moronic-looking versions of things so even the dimmest bulb can differentiate. For those families who want to teach their children about real guns - perhaps those families who live in the country and go hunting and start their children hunting young - then you can use the real deal. For other kids who just want to play, make the whole gun bright orange, yellow, red, green, blue, not just the tip. Just STAY AWAY FROM BLACK. That's the whole problem right there. If you see something weirdly colored from a distance, you know it's not the real deal. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted November 24, 2014 #16 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) remember murder of 15yo with airsoft gun, cops claimed there was no orange tip either, sure there was not, part of the barrel with the tip was broken off. cops would not care if kid's gun had the tip, they would have killed him anyway. even if there was a video of the shooting and orange tip is clearly visible, they would claim, it could have been painted on a real gun, and they can not take any chances. Edited November 24, 2014 by aztek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjim36 Posted November 24, 2014 #17 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) sorry but if the kid was stupid enough to NOT put his hands in the air and actually go for his gun, toy or otherwise, then he really is giving the police very little option. His parents are to blame for giving him the gun and when two armed police shout "put your hands up" whilst pointing guns at you you do it, even a child knows that. If they don't that's called natural selection. I have a 12 year old son and he knows if a person in authority tells you to do something you do it, it all comes back to the parents. Edited November 24, 2014 by bigjim36 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted November 24, 2014 #18 Share Posted November 24, 2014 This is a true tragedy and I can't in all honesty say the police were wrong in their behavior, when you consider the information that led them to the youngster included the fact that he was waving a gun and pointing it at people, the caller said "it was probably fake" but they really didn't know for sure, if you see the picture of the gun, it looks pretty damned real. At a distance, it would look even more real. What I really want to know is why are such real looking fakes being given to children to play with? This was an air gun, basically a toy marketed to youngsters. The result of this youngster having this toy, makes me feel quite sick. http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t1 Well it is illegal for anyone under 18 to purchase them - Federal law. And many states/municipalities have outlawed them and/or limited their use. They're not really marketed for kids. Airsoft is more of a sport akin to paintball. Folks dress up, hit the woods, and shot at each other in mock military situations. So, no, they're not really for children to use (hence the Federal law). Yeah, I guess my point is the kid would not have been doing what he did if some dumbass adult had not gifted him with a real looking toy gun and then let him run around in the park with it unsupervised. This kind of toy would make a great prop for a quick grab and dash hold up by any teen with a criminal mind too, it just shouldn't be out there. Edit to add: I'm flogging a dead horse aren't I? I mean there have to millions of "toy" guns in the hands of kids around the world at any given time, I guess it just seems all so senseless and a really stupid way for a kid to die. Well someone - perhaps the kid - had removed the orange safety tip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted November 24, 2014 #19 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) There is no excuse for this kind of behavior from the youth, he knew what he was doing and knew the risks.......that time it was a fake gun, later on his his life if never stopped, I have very little doubt that it would have been a real one. BUT to kill him? no! the training the police should have gotten since all the gun incidents over the years, and baring in mind the fake gun incidents, then they should have been able to shoot at his arm or where ever it would take to disarm him. I am not a gun holder, is it really that difficult to shoot to unarm? Yes, it is extremely difficult and no LEO agency in the world trains that way. If an incident escalates to the use of deadly force, it's just that DEADLY. I'm pretty hard on the police, but in this case, they absolutely made the right call. There was no way they could have known the gun was fake. All they saw was a kid pull a pistol out of his waistband in a crowded playground. What if it had been real? What if he had opened up on the kids and families at the park? As they say, hindsight is 20/20. But when an LEO rolls up on a situation like that, the only thing they have to rely on is training and the observable situation. Look at the photos below and put yourself in the role of the LEO. What would you have done? remember murder of 15yo with airsoft gun, cops claimed there was no orange tip either, sure there was not, part of the barrel with the tip was broken off. cops would not care if kid's gun had the tip, they would have killed him anyway. even if there was a video of the shooting and orange tip is clearly visible, they would claim, it could have been painted on a real gun, and they can not take any chances. Very true. Do you have a problem with that? Edited November 24, 2014 by Rafterman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted November 24, 2014 #20 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Very true. Do you have a problem with that? problem with what?? cops killing people they do not have to?? absolutely, but i see you otoh, are fine with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techlicious Posted November 24, 2014 #21 Share Posted November 24, 2014 It doesn't matter what's in your waistband, you could have a banana, but if you reach for it they'll shoot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted November 24, 2014 #22 Share Posted November 24, 2014 problem with what?? cops killing people they do not have to?? absolutely, but i see you otoh, are fine with it. Nice logical fallacy bro. Anyway, I'm interested to hear how you would have handled it? Here's the 911 call: "There's a guy in there with a pistol, you know, it's probably fake, but he's like pointing it at everybody," the caller said, according to audio provided by CNN affiliate WEWS. "He's sitting on a swing right now, but he's pulling it in and out of his pants and pointing it at people," the caller said. "He's probably a juvenile, you know?" When the two officers arrived, the boy did not point the weapon at them or otherwise threaten them, Deputy Chief Ed Tomba of the Cleveland Division of Police told reporters early Sunday. But he did reach for the weapon, Tomba said. Please tell me you're not one of those "shoot the gun out their hand" types. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techlicious Posted November 24, 2014 #23 Share Posted November 24, 2014 If there were two officers, why couldn't one have his real gun drawn while the other shoots with taser. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted November 24, 2014 #24 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Here's the 911 call: this is meda's version of events. they are known for editing 911 calls. and otherwise lying. Edited November 24, 2014 by aztek 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafterman Posted November 24, 2014 #25 Share Posted November 24, 2014 this is meda's version of events. they are known for editing 911 calls. and otherwise lying. That's all you've got? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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