Martial Arts!

[back to earth]

I read an interesting comment after a karate title, from a guy who got high up he said something like - ..... is awesome, he deserved to win, he is a big large bad-**** Hawaiian with a 6th dan black belt , I think the fact that he is a big large bad-**** Hawaiian has a lot to do do with it.

I dont think my Mifune link worked , but he is pretty cool , like the otter you mentioned .... old school though.

[CrimsonKing]

I can see some of your points sam...Rolling over demo classes absolutely,physically much larger stronger opponent being problematic i see that aswell.

I am 6'0 220 and have one student who is 6'5 265.He has a bodybuilder type frame and is very quick for his size,he is a former college defensive end.

I beat him almost every time we roll or strike...Granted i'm not in just average shape and i teach mixed martial arts not just stylized forms.

My point being any gym is going to have a seperation of classes begginer,intermediate,and advanced...But you also have some who train because they love the art and then you have true fighters...Even some great trainers are more artist than fighters.

The biggest difference between an artist and a fighter is a fighter can and will make adjustments to win.If trying for a armbar he knows immediatly if he can secure it or not,he doesnt waste minutes of time and energy trying something not knowing if it will work or not.

In striking i can agree with the picture you painted but must point out boxing gyms or the ones i have been to have the best conditioned athletes of any combat sport i have witnessed...

Lets just look at your scenario for a second though with just what you mentioned...Lets give the average guy a good chin,good endurance,and an awkward style to go with all of that knowledge...

I think we agree though a fight is a fluid unpredictable situation but when all the cards are on the table i'm going with the better trained more skilled fighter 10 out of 10 times.As i said before street fights are just to damned dangerous to mess around with hand to hand unless one knows their enviroment 100%

[CrimsonKing]

@ back to earth Big large bad Hawaiian with a 6th dan black belt "A good big guy always beats a good little guy"

[back to earth]

Oh ! Did you mention 'chi shield ' ?

[Iron_Lotus]

pancrase was the **** back in the day

ooooooo that hurt..... Edited July 2, 2015 by Iron_Lotus

[CrimsonKing]

Bas is awesome!

Might just watch some of his fights while at the gym today...

Wont be starting our training camp till monday,forgot is was 4th of july weekend coming up so i let everyone put it to a vote...Hell i'm not the one who has to fight in 10 weeks lol

[Iron_Lotus]

think bas has every pancrase fight of his on youtube with him commentating too which is awesome since he points out every little mistake he did or his opponent did since he's come a long so far since pancrase.

if there ever is an mma hall of fame one day that isnt zuffa owned bas frank and fedor are the holy trinity for me.

[Iron_Lotus]

edit: always loved how russians throw hooks. Edited July 2, 2015 by Iron_Lotus

[CrimsonKing]

Sweet thanks for the heads up!

I agree,still to this day wish they could have worked something out with fedor while in his prime!Talk about a human wrecking ball that looked like a plumber haha

[Iron_Lotus]

yeah, it is a shame, i heard he lost a lot of love for fighting when his father died and his brother is doing 4.5 years in a russian pen now for some pretty brutal ****. theres another lost soul in mma, alexander, who even his brother has stated was better than he was in every way but just never applied himself in the gym and too many stints in jail messed up his chances for visas.

[seeder]

Troop fights! Non boxers so it looks scruffy

[Iron_Lotus]

well i wouldn't call em the most technical of the bunch no definitely tough boys though lol. i thought boxing in the military was fairly well respected? pretty sure I've heard of army boxers trying out for the olympics before. so i dont doubt there are some high level amateur boxers choosing to serve instead of box professionally.

[sam12six]

I dont think my Mifune link worked , but he is pretty cool , like the otter you mentioned .... old school though.

Yeah, the guy I'm talking about either wasn't where I expected him to be or moved in the opposite direction I expected him to, leaving me throwing my body weight at nothing and feeling like an idiot.

I can see some of your points sam...Rolling over demo classes absolutely,physically much larger stronger opponent being problematic i see that aswell.

I am 6'0 220 and have one student who is 6'5 265.He has a bodybuilder type frame and is very quick for his size,he is a former college defensive end.

I beat him almost every time we roll or strike...Granted i'm not in just average shape and i teach mixed martial arts not just stylized forms.

You're in the same realm, sizewize (meaning you're both big guys, though he's obviously bigger). My argument there was that there comes a point where physical differences make up the difference in skill when it comes to an isolated contest. Now, best of X, I'd expect the more experienced guy to get more and more effective as he sees mistakes the newbie has a habit of making.

The flexibility of thought you get from working in general MMA probably has a lot to do with things, too. I've heard more than one instructor of trademarked martial arts complain that he hates working with new students because you never know what they're going to do. While they never seem to realize what they're saying, to me they're illustrating the point I keep mentioning - that restricting yourself to a style makes you less effective in the real world. In other words, the better they get at their branded martial art, the more effective they become at dealing with others who use that same brand, but become less effective against anyone else.

Now, so someone doesn't show up and misunderstand that point: Yes, honing the individual tools can improve your effectiveness against anyone, but conditioning your muscle memory to expect a kick slows you down minutely when faced instead with a tackle.

My point being any gym is going to have a seperation of classes begginer,intermediate,and advanced...But you also have some who train because they love the art and then you have true fighters...Even some great trainers are more artist than fighters.

The biggest difference between an artist and a fighter is a fighter can and will make adjustments to win.If trying for a armbar he knows immediatly if he can secure it or not,he doesnt waste minutes of time and energy trying something not knowing if it will work or not.

Agreed. I don't give any guarantee for this guy as a fighter or as a jujitsu practitioner (just that to me he seemed really good and was co-owner of the place).

I just think people who poo-poo the idea that a gifted athlete can cause problems for someone far more skilled is falling into the "martial arts are magic" trap.

In striking i can agree with the picture you painted but must point out boxing gyms or the ones i have been to have the best conditioned athletes of any combat sport i have witnessed...

Lets just look at your scenario for a second though with just what you mentioned...Lets give the average guy a good chin,good endurance,and an awkward style to go with all of that knowledge...

I think we agree though a fight is a fluid unpredictable situation but when all the cards are on the table i'm going with the better trained more skilled fighter 10 out of 10 times.As i said before street fights are just to damned dangerous to mess around with hand to hand unless one knows their enviroment 100%

Well yeah, if you want to give the experienced boxer above average physical abilities he'll obviously do better against the primo athlete I mentioned than the totally average guy I first had lined up as an opponent. All I'm saying in this realm of the discussion that went from stating my opinion to some weird kok-waving exercise where a guy didn't seem to understand what I was saying to now an interesting discussion is that too many people think a little training makes up for a lot of physical advantage and it's just not true. The idea leads people into hubris that could get them hurt.

Anyway, it's the last I'll say about the superior athlete thing, but I think this will illustrate my point best: One of the most dominant champions in modern MMA is Georges St-Pierre. Was he skilled? No doubt about it - his striking was usually textbook and he was one of the most effective blankets in history. That said, was his skill alone the reason he could shoot for a double from 4 feet away and land it before the other guy could sprawl? I personally suspect it was largely because dude was lizard-quick (also, I suspect, largely the reason he could hit a guy in the eye with a jab and be back in guard position before the other guy pointlessly raised his hand to block).

Now, let's say GSP at 17 or 18 walked into an MMA gym as a complete virgin and was taught the very basics before being thrown into sparring with other welterweights. Do you honestly think guys with a couple years of training but average physical abilities would run roughshod over him because they're more skilled? That his superior size, reach, quickness and reflexes wouldn't cause them trouble? This is what I'm saying - there's knowing what to do and being able to do it. The better an athlete the person you're trying to do something to, the more difficult it's going to be. In some cases, the difference in physical ability is going to be enough that a relatively unskilled guy will hang with, or even beat, a much more technically sound guy.

I agree completely on street fighting. Anyone who wants to fight in the street is either a complete idiot or doesn't understand the nature of injury and the human body (I was the latter in my high school days - I thought of getting into fights as unsanctioned athletic contests until the day came I found myself scared to death and checking a guy's pulse as I imagined myself spending the next 20 years wearing an orange jumpsuit).

The human body can be freakishly resilient and freakishly fragile. People on rare occasions take a fall from a really high place and receive no injury. People also on rare occasions take a simple step and break a leg. Every time you hit a person (or are hit) in the head, there's a chance the blow will cause death or worse. The chance is very low, but it's still high enough that there's no reason to take that chance doing something that benefits no one, and that's not counting the 400 million other ways you or the other guy could end up paralyzed or dead.

[back to earth]

A lot of the above is interesting !

I think, that at the beginning , of course, a teacher or instructor is essential. After a while of learning one needs to cross train. Then have times away from the instructor, get the lads together and experiment 'What if I do this ... or this ? " (instructors dont like that ... I dont mind if its a small group and we have time ... one guy 1 on 1, wanted to pay me for lessons, got bored and didnt understand and wanted to know what would happen if he just 'rushed me' ( with a glint in his eye ) . Okay, I said ... but anything could happen, I am not that good that I can assure you may not get injured in a situation like that, he declined after that.

Also, as mentioned previously, watch assaults and street fights, learn from that, adapt and develop. learn how to use terrain, surroundings and basic strategy ( I am a fan of the "Japanese Art of War" - it helped me tactically win a Supreme Court case )

But of course .... you wrestlin' guys ... you know that aint good for self defence .... huh ?

[sam12six]

Oh hell yeah wrestling can save your bacon!!

Once, surrounded by 5 guys I whipped off my jacket and tossed it in the air. As it was falling, I popped it a couple of times with Santino Marella's Cobra, grabbed it in Lex Luger's Torture Rack and let it fall to the ground and landed the Hulk Hogan Leg Drop on it. When I looked around, every one of them was on the ground holding his stomach with tears flowing freely from his eyes...

OK, that story is not true.

[acidhead]

In a bar or street fight the best shot to give is the cheap shot. Im serious. Its your best punch you'll ever get and the fight will end quickly. If he's persistent and in your face pretend you want nothing to do with him. Size up the jaw while he's mouthing you off. Assume a defensive posture all while saying you don't want to do this. Turn sideways feinting to your power side looking away from the target and then let loose on your target the moment he takes his eyes off you. Make sure you KO him. It's important. It will usually diffuse the whole situation if you catch him clean and he goes stiff spitting up chicklets. If you feel you can't KO him or his friends have you totally out numbered than pursue option number two. Use your legs and run.

[seeder]

Guess who taps out?

[seeder]

weird fight, you can FFWD 5 mins as just the pre fight stuff

[seeder]

2 KO's in 2 seconds

[back to earth]

Edited July 21, 2015 by back to earth

[Iron_Lotus]

[Senkaku]

ahh, how refreshing, other martial artists!...i practice bagua and taichi, i love internal styles. i have been on a long journey with martial arts, too long to write here,lol. but, after much study and getting my feet wet, i met and fell in love with tai chi and bagua. i love the applications.

[CrimsonKing]

Hey Lotus you hear about Fedor looking to make a comeback?

Not sure how i feel about that,certainly one of the best ever and one of my all time favorites!

But i just wonder how much he has left in the tank...Then again a good rest mental and physical might just do wonders,i just know that concept usually goes badly in boxing hmmm...

[CrimsonKing]

ahh, how refreshing, other martial artists!...i practice bagua and taichi, i love internal styles. i have been on a long journey with martial arts, too long to write here,lol. but, after much study and getting my feet wet, i met and fell in love with tai chi and bagua. i love the applications.

Not really well versed in either of those styles Senkaku,only in passing conversations have i ever discussed them...Martial arts are almost like religions there are many and each must choose what is best for themselves.

[back to earth]

Such arts, esp. bagua are often discussed obn a taoist forum I frequent

They also do interesting wepons - like I do, but mine are different - their sword are ... well ....

........ big !

Edited August 8, 2015 by back to earth