The number of the Beast

[Riaan]

They were made from knuckle bones from cows or sheep. Here's one knuckle die carved out of soapstone:

The sides were labeled 1, 3, 4, and 6, but four were thrown, so a 6-6-6 is still an impossible throw. They played it like Yahtzee where you'd throw for combinations and not just high roles.

What would have been more straightforward than to grind a piece of wood into a cube and number all the sides? Especially when you're sitting in prison?

[Magnanimus]

What would have been more straightforward than to grind a piece of wood into a cube and number all the sides? Especially when you're sitting in prison?

And eventually they did come up with cube-dice, but what would've been the point of inventing dice that couldn't be used in your game, what with the superfluous sides and all? Plus, hexahedral dice are easier to rig. The point of this game was that all values didn't have an equal probability of coming up, so certain throws would be harder than others, that nothing short of the will of the gods themselves could influence the results. This game came out of an archaic divination practice, not a family game night.

Still though, it would have no effect on the original premise of the thread, that the Number of the Beast could come up as a dice throw; there would have to be die with at least six hundred sides to get that result. You could label all of the dimples on a golf ball and still not have enough faces to reach six hundred, much less expect people grinding dice against flat rocks to cut that many faces.

[XenoFish]

I thought the number was 976-EVIL.

[Magnanimus]

I thought the number was 976-EVIL.

That was the number for introverted nerd-vengeance before Columbine, et alia, made the thought actually scary and ensuing anti-bullying and zero tolerance policies in schools added an Orwellian bent to the daily lives of minors.

[XenoFish]

Don't know what your smoking but here's my reference.

[+and-then]

That number or name will only be known when the time has come for individuals to make the choice for themselves whether they will believe in and serve the God of heaven or the government of man. I believe the choice will be a very clear one - not easy - but there will be no deception. Everyone who makes their choice will know what they are doing. Discussing numbers ad nauseum may serve a purpose yet. At the time when these choices are to be made there may be a few who will see this leader for who he actually is. The blindness that has descended on this world is far more extensive than anything I ever thought I'd see in my lifetime.

[Aquarius Chik]

Has anyone considered the empty seat number 666 in the United Nations? I think it would be wise to pay attention to what goes on there- and to wait and see who is eventually assigned to that seat....

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/seat_666.htm

[Galahad]

"will turn rocks into bread"

This is what the Antichrist did..

[Riaan]

Still though, it would have no effect on the original premise of the thread, that the Number of the Beast could come up as a dice throw; there would have to be die with at least six hundred sides to get that result. You could label all of the dimples on a golf ball and still not have enough faces to reach six hundred, much less expect people grinding dice against flat rocks to cut that many faces.

There must be a misunderstanding here - the Roman game of dice I am referring to comprised three dice with faces numbered 1-6 (see the clip from Asterix in the original post). I never suggested one die with 666 faces, if that is what you are implying.

[Magnanimus]

There must be a misunderstanding here - the Roman game of dice I am referring to comprised three dice with faces numbered 1-6 (see the clip from Asterix in the original post). I never suggested one die with 666 faces, if that is what you are implying.

Aside from three dice not being enough to play Roman-style games, what is your point then?

The Number of the Beast is--and I cannot stress this enough--NOT three sixes. It only LOOKS like three sixes in our system of numbers and accounting since we use a base-10 counting system. It's the same flaw as that woman who said that Monster energy drinks were the Devil since the stylized "M" looked (to her) like three Hebrew W's that each have a numeric value of 6. The Romans would've seen the number as "DCLXVI."

But even then, what would Rome have to do with any of it? John wrote the book in Greek, but the Number is specifically taken from a Hebraic mystic practice. He was in exile on Patmos to begin with specifically because of a diminished Roman presence.

An historically inaccurate Roman pub game has nothing to do with the biblical capstone book.

Edit: And one last thing about the actual Roman dice game: The objective wasn't to roll all sixes, it was to roll one of each value. A 1-2-4-6 roll automatically won the pot, a 6-6-6-6 was just a high roll.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Magnanimus

[Riaan]

Aside from three dice not being enough to play Roman-style games, what is your point then?

Maybe you should take this matter up with Brewer (Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 17th edition), as well as numerous websites, just search for Roman game of dice:

Roman Board Games

Tesserae

roman entertainment and games

The photographs show dice with six sides.

[Magnanimus]

Maybe you should take this matter up with Brewer (Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 17th edition), as well as numerous websites, just search for Roman game of dice:

Roman Board Games

Tesserae

roman entertainment and games

The photographs show dice with six sides.

A: Late Roman additions to a centuries-old game.

B: The original premise is still irreparably faulty.

Is your point that Romans worshipped the devil via Dungeons & Dragons or that the Number of the Beast was a possible dice roll? Either way, why are you trying so hard to Da Vinci Code one of the great, dark mysteries of God's plan from a single-panel comic strip from a Sunday paper? The answer's not there and you still don't seem to grasp the gulf between the numerical value of six and six hundred.

Dice. Are. Not. The. Devil.

[Riaan]

A: Late Roman additions to a centuries-old game.

It turns out that you may be right - in Artifacts from Ancient Rome, by James B. Tschen-Emmons Ph.D., pp. 70-71, dice with four sides in the time of Emperor Augustus (63 BCE to 14 CE) are discussed, the sides being numbered 1,3,4, and 6. As the game was usually played with three dice, '6 6 6' certainly was one of the combinations.

[+Paranoid Android]

It turns out that you may be right - in Artifacts from Ancient Rome, by James B. Tschen-Emmons Ph.D., pp. 70-71, dice with four sides in the time of Emperor Augustus (63 BCE to 14 CE) are discussed, the sides being numbered 1,3,4, and 6. As the game was usually played with three dice, '6 6 6' certainly was one of the combinations.

And the point Magnanimous is trying to make is that the combo 6-6-6 still has no bearing on the number six hundred and sixty six, which is the number of the beast in the Greek language (or six hundred and sixteen, depending on which manuscript you use).

[Riaan]

And the point Magnanimous is trying to make is that the combo 6-6-6 still has no bearing on the number six hundred and sixty six, which is the number of the beast in the Greek language (or six hundred and sixteen, depending on which manuscript you use).

That is the opinion of some modern scholars, but according to Irenaeus the original version was 666. My premise is that if the Christian god does not exist, what would the origin of this number be? As a game of dice 666 would certainly be a possibility, but where would 616 have come from? Just an arbitrary number?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Riaan

[Magnanimus]

That is the opinion of some modern scholars, but according to Irenaeus the original version was 666. My premise is that if the Christian god does not exist, what would the origin of this number be? As a game of dice 666 would certainly be a possibility, but where would 616 have come from? Just an arbitrary number?

Oh for...Look, where's the breakdown in communication here? How in the name of Jesus' lost sandals are you getting a number greater than six hundred on dice with face values that only go up to six?

John literally spells out the number in Revelation 13:18 as, "hexakasioi hexekonta hex"--"six hundred and sixty-six." Note the obvious lack of Arabic numerals. It's not three, independent values of six. Hell, even in a dice game, three sixes wouldn't be the Number of the Beast; it would be 18 because you add those somb****es up!

And, as has been discussed, six hundred and sixteen is in no way arbitrary. It was arrived at by an early branch of copyists and translators assuming that the number WAS a direct reference to Nero and used the value of the name "Nero Caesar" (equal to 616) when written in Hebrew instead of "Neron Caesar," which holds a numerical value of 666.

[Riaan]

Oh for...Look, where's the breakdown in communication here? How in the name of Jesus' lost sandals are you getting a number greater than six hundred on dice with face values that only go up to six?

John literally spells out the number in Revelation 13:18 as, "hexakasioi hexekonta hex"--"six hundred and sixty-six." Note the obvious lack of Arabic numerals. It's not three, independent values of six. Hell, even in a dice game, three sixes wouldn't be the Number of the Beast; it would be 18 because you add those somb****es up!

And, as has been discussed, six hundred and sixteen is in no way arbitrary. It was arrived at by an early branch of copyists and translators assuming that the number WAS a direct reference to Nero and used the value of the name "Nero Caesar" (equal to 616) when written in Hebrew instead of "Neron Caesar," which holds a numerical value of 666.

Sure, I get your point (sum of 3x6=18). Mine is that the only '666' that is not divinely inspired is three dice next to each other, with the 6s facing upward. Can you understand that?

[Magnanimus]

Sure, I get your point (sum of 3x6=18). Mine is that the only '666' that is not divinely inspired is three dice next to each other, with the 6s facing upward. Can you understand that?

Yes, but can you understand that three sixes is about twelve hundred years away from anyone in that part of the world writing it as 6-6-6? Or that the Number is not 6-6-6?

It's a matter of faith that the Beast will come and his name and number will be 666. It's a matter of fact that the number is a gematria value that equals the value of a word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

Dice are definitively not involved in the composition of the text.

[Riaan]

Yes, but can you understand that three sixes is about twelve hundred years away from anyone in that part of the world writing it as 6-6-6? Or that the Number is not 6-6-6?

It's a matter of faith that the Beast will come and his name and number will be 666. It's a matter of fact that the number is a gematria value that equals the value of a word.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here - you appear to have faith the future appearance of the Antichrist, but I don't. Perhaps you are correct in the sense that the number may have been assigned to the Antichrist by early Christians who associated him with Nero, who would supposedly return some day as the Antichrist (some scholars appear to believe this to be the origin of the number). As a matter of interest, if the Greeks saw three sixes next to each other, what value would they associate with it? From Greek Numerals: In medieval manuscripts of the Book of Revelation, the number of the Beast 666 is written as χξϛ (600 + 60 + 6).

[+Paranoid Android]

That is the opinion of some modern scholars, but according to Irenaeus the original version was 666. My premise is that if the Christian god does not exist, what would the origin of this number be? As a game of dice 666 would certainly be a possibility, but where would 616 have come from? Just an arbitrary number?

Magnanimous pretty much answered how I would have. Even if it is six hundred and sixty six, this would not relate to three dice being rolled. Three dice would produce three sixes as a result of all faces showing six. It would not, never will, and demonstrably CANNOT equal six hundred and sixty six, therefore your entire premise is flawed. Edited July 18, 2015 by Paranoid Android

[Riaan]

Magnanimous pretty much answered how I would have. Even if it is six hundred and sixty six, this would not relate to three dice being rolled. Three dice would produce three sixes as a result of all faces showing six. It would not, never will, and demonstrably CANNOT equal six hundred and sixty six, therefore your entire premise is flawed.

I have to concede - looks like you're right, and I was a bit slow to realize that from the start . To me it still remains an open question as to how John would have come up with this number. Thanks for your contributions!

[Iak sakkakh]

Those numbers...666.....144,000.....all from the Mazzaroth

They are also based on some peculiar properties of the mathematical constant Pi

All bible prophecy is based on Pi

[Riaan]

On 16/07/2015 at 7:43 PM, Magnanimus said:

Aside from three dice not being enough to play Roman-style games, what is your point then?

The Number of the Beast is--and I cannot stress this enough--NOT three sixes. It only LOOKS like three sixes in our system of numbers and accounting since we use a base-10 counting system.

I had a look at the Greek numbering system again. The Greeks did have a decimal numbering system dating back to well before Christ. If Greeks playing a game with three dice, like their Roman compatriots, decided to put them side-by-side to form a decimal number, would that not have resulted in χξς (600 + 60 + 6)?

[Podo]

Why does any of it matter? If the number had any sort of magical meaning, we'd know by now. It clearly does not.

[Trichakra]

661 number...