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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

668 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

here is someone timeline:

· April 14, 2005 - Gricar's office door is forcefully closed several times mid afternoon per a colleague. Gricar had a habit of forcefully closing his door per a colleague.

· April 14, 2005 - Gricar and girlfriend Patty Fornicola are seen walking in Tallyrand Park by a Centre County Commissioner approx 5:30pm. Gricar is described as "depressed looking" as neither he nor his girlfriend respond to a compliment of being the perfect couple. The Commissioner cannot recall what Gricar or Fornicola were wearing during this walk (office attire or casual clothing.)

· April 14, 2005 - Gricar is seen in courthouse surveillance video entering the courthouse at approx 6:15 pm to do some work, and is seen leaving approx 9:15 pm. He is wearing blue jeans, sneakers and a blue fleece jacket. He is not carrying his laptop computer. This is the same outfit he is reportedly wearing when missing.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola states that Gricar woke up and told her he was going to take 1/2 the day off from work and then he went back to sleep. She left him a note instructing that if he went anywhere, to let her know so that she could make arrangements to let the dog out at noon.

· April 15, 2005 - A call is placed to girlfriend Patty Fornicola at the Centre County courthouse at approx 11:30 am from Gricar's cell phone indicating that he is on Highway 192 (heading toward Lewisburg) and that he is taking the other 1/2 of the day off from work, and that he would not be home at noon to let the dog out. Several other office employees were out of the office or not working that day.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola arrives home from work at approx 5:00pm and Gricar has not left her a note as she reportedly expected, and she heads to the gym. Normally she and Gricar would always go out to eat at the Gamble Mill Inn each Friday. It’s reported that Fornicola thought he had maybe stopped somewhere to eat when he wasn’t home at this time.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola does not phone Gricar's family or friends, but phones her brother Tom Fornicola at approx 8:30pm as she is worried because Gricar has still not arrived home.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola phones Bellefonte Police at approx 11:30pm to report Gricar as missing. Policeman Holliday contacts chief of police Duane Dixon who advises to send a message to other area police departments.

· April 16, 2005 - Bellefonte Policeman Darrel Zaccagni is assigned the case and begins working the case approx 11:30am with a BOLO, and initiates air & ground searches from Centre Hall to Madisonburg along Hwy 192, and girlfriend Patty Fornicola notifies Gricar's family members by phone that he did not come home the prior evening. Clerical staff at the courthouse provides Gricar's computer password and police look at his office computer for any signs/clues. It’s reported that Patty Fornicola is monitoring Gricar’s email accounts (as she knows the passwords.)

its not attributed but it's link is https://sites.google...gricar/timeline

so he went to work after the walk in the park according to this. he worked quite some time for someone who was offing himself the next day. I would be at a bar.

Edited by mbrn30000
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Posted (edited)

You need to read my posts about that. I have been saying that over and over...lol. it's not a lethal jump. Why risk a broken leg and a painful float down the river. I don't think people who can swim can force themselves to drown. I did say is it possible he leaned out and blew his head off falling into the river. that was kind of a wild thought, but it could be a serious one. It is just not high enough that I think you would pick it for your fatal jump. He could drive down to Maryland. I remember a bridge I took over the Chesapeake, and believe me, I almost died driving over it. Now that's a bridge. http://archive.delma...ct-your-travels- throw your laptop from there. it won't be coming back. It's 3-4 hr drive from Lewisburg. He could have made it there by 5 pm easy.

Really sorry, don't know whether I missed them or it's the mind like a sieve at work again. :blush: He also knew his way to Cleveland for a ball game. He could have thrown himself off one there into the Cuyahoga and he could have felt assured that the muck would drag down to the bottom, that is if he didn't catch fire first.

A bullet into the brain and then falling wouldn't work, there's no way that wouldn't have left some type of blood splatter.

There is more in Docy's back to basics, he's in the cistern theory. That house is perfect age to have had wells and/or cisterns, the house had been in the family for a long time and Patty was into gardening she would have most likely knew about it and used it. I would actually give that more consideration than a jump off the bridge. I mean this as funny and yet it isn't.

2B I've had the impression you are at least in the general area, do you have a flash light ? :unsure2:

PS We now have 26 guests .... Are we that good or is one of us now under suspicion ?

Edited by Vincennes

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Posted (edited)

A cursory walk through was done. But....

1. BPD held on to the "three theories, equally likely" position as long as they held the case and always maintained it was "just a missing persons case," whatever that means. It's true they had no blood slashed all over the Mini's seats or OJ -like blood trail. But as I've said before, neither did nearby Ferguson Township police when Cindy Song disappeared. They re-classified her case pretty quickly as suspected homicide even though demographically she was more likely to be a runaway and circumstantially more likely to be a suite (recent bad breakup with boyfriend). They used her having enrolled in the next semester's classes and having just put in an order for computer parts to rule out both. (Gricar had both professional and personal things written on his office calendar....)

2. As we've recently discussed, PF was not treated as most people who last saw a missing person are treated. For her own peace of mind and for the investigation, it would have been better if the BPD hadn't shown this favoritism. Until we find out what happened to RG, it seems she'll always be under that umbrella of suspicion even if she's a totally innocent, grieving girlfriend.

but there are facts, no body was ever found at the river, the dog scents never trace RG leaving his car. Its quite obvious that it was a staged set up to looked like he committed suicide just like his brother,and its usually the closes one to that person that's the culprit..

Edited by docyabut2
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I don't know if you remember this, but in December 2005, State Rep. Mark Cohen wrote a 5-page letter to Fine's office at the DOJ asking for a deeper look into the death of Luna and the disappearance of Ray Gricar:

http://www.centredai...probe.html?rh=1

Unfortunately, Cohen's pleas fell on deaf ears.

Cohen didn't necessarily imply the two events were connected, merely that both were suspicious and deserved further investigation. As early as 2005, of course, many wondered whether the two events might have some connection. I remember Logic creating a long point-by-point comparison chart.

In 2006, "ParlorElephant" went head-to-head for days and for pages with Blogger Dude on the Luna issue. (Worth re-reading KA's section on this.) Those not around in the early days may not know that despite his proclaimed lack of interest in mysteries and true crime, BD in 2004 had actually been a member of a now defunct message board called Web Detectives, where he 1. argued vociferously for the Luna suicide theory and 2. first began his "don't trust Keisling" message. Then, and for some time at CTV and at In Session, the message was "don't trust Keisling because he has to publish his stuff himself," implying he was using a vanity press and paying to publish his works. BD never mentioned that Keisling was a freelance journalist who started his own publishing house, Yardbird. Googling around the web, I learned that Yardbird is a respected small publishing firm. I see he's now taking a different approach to discrediting Keisling.

Why? Because Keisling doesn't buy that Luna killed himself with 36 stab wounds to the scrotum by a pen knife. And because in 2005 Keisling wrote a piece suggesting Gricar may have gone out the same way he thinks Luna did.

I personally don't think Gricar's disappearance was drug related. But I do think both he and Luna were murdered.

2B,I respectfully snipped

I can attest to what happened at Web Detectives as I was a poster there at that time, and those of us that were there when JJ joined and posted about Luna, were disgusted with his condescending attitude about what happened. He posted maps and photos of the "midnight ride". I can't remember his exact words, but they were very denigrating about Luna.

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Posted (edited)

but there are facts, no body was ever found at the river, the dog scents never trace RG leaving his car. Its quite obvious that it was a staged set up to looked like he committed suicide just like his brother,and its usually the closes one to that person that's the culprit..

It's also very unlikely to me that a gang of raging unseen Hell's Angels roared into town, proceeded unnoticed to Ray's neighborhood and offed him, knowing exactly how his brother had committed suicide and just what they needed to do to perfectly imitate that site.

I can attest to what happened at Web Detectives as I was a poster there at that time, and those of us that were there when JJ joined and posted about Luna, were disgusted with his condescending attitude about what happened. He posted maps and photos of the "midnight ride". I can't remember his exact words, but they were very denigrating about Luna.

Caramina, nice to have you join us ! :st

Edited by Vincennes
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I have known about this case since the beginning and only recently took a look at it. There is a lot of material to peruse and I have only skimmed over it and I am sure I have missed a lot of info. That and the fact I have not seen any of the "official" investigative notes, I can only offer some educated opinions on everyone's theories of what happened to RG.

Witness protection. No. No way. If the decision was made to put RG into witness protection, it would have been accomplished in a much more methodical way without costing taxpayers a cent and no big hype about a disappearance. Forget it.

Homicide. Possible but doubtful. DA's are threatened all the time.

Suicide. Possible but also doubtful. A man who is going to commit suicide doesn't worry about wiping a laptop clean, having it found in the river etc. He simply goes somewhere and kills himself. No well thought out plan to pretend to go for a ride, shopping etc. and then jump in a river.

Walk Away. Strange in the manner things happened, and without seeing anything from the investigation, this is the one that flies with me. Several scenarios work for me on this one. Sure, he was near retirement, pension coming and plenty of money in the bank. Stranger things have happened. He appeared to have it made and be happy in his life. It's easy to say that unless you have walked in the mans shoes. I read they polygraphed the girlfriend and daughter and they passed. No surprise there. If he did walk away he knew they would be the first ones to take the poly and if he told them anything they would fail. You don't fool a polygraph. He would have told them nothing. Easy enough to contact them later when he settled in somewhere to let them know he was ok. Why/how the laptop got in the river is the one piece of this I don't get and makes no sense. If I bought into the "staged" scenario, yes maybe it makes sense, but I don't think anything was staged.

Very interesting post. Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries. :)

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It's also very unlikely to me that a gang of raging unseen Hell's Angels roared into town, proceeded unnoticed to Ray's neighborhood and offed him, knowing exactly how his brother had committed suicide and just what they needed to do to perfectly imitate that site.

Caramina, nice to have you join us ! :st

Thank you Vincennes. I don't post often, do not have that much knowledge but enjoy others' opinions and theories....well except one that even though I don't log in often, I had to put on ignore since it took me so long to catch up since my last posting.

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Thank you Vincennes. I don't post often, do not have that much knowledge but enjoy others' opinions and theories....well except one that even though I don't log in often, I had to put on ignore since it took me so long to catch up since my last posting.

If I understood you correctly, you participated in the other thread also. I'm really rather a new comer in this one. Do you have a theory or anything you lean toward thus far ?

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The highest I saw was 26 guests, and as I write this we're still at 19, deep into the late night on an otherwise uneventful Saturday.

Something that was said in the last 3-5 pages must have stoked some gossip in Centre County, and now everyone is looking for what we're going to say next.

Just my theory, of course.

It's actually amazing to me there are that many people who would tune in and why/how we would hold their interest. Well we know that pretty much we haven't been discussing the motorcycle gangs or Sandusky much now have we.

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Posted (edited)

JJ *was* BD, no thinking involved. :-)

You likely think that's more than you wanted to know about BD, but honestly, it only scratches the surface. My concern with him is that he is so slick he's been able to shape public perception in the Gricar case to a huge degree. A public who thinks Ray walked away isn't a public who will in any way make it clear to law enforcement that the public won't stand for s cold case that just languishes in a dusty box on a shelf.

For whatever reason sometimes posts seem to be delayed for quite some time. When I go back I find things that have appeared slightly back in the thread that I miss.

Thanks for posting this background. I'm glad that I did see it and, no, it wasn't more than I wanted to know :tu: What you didn't say and maybe you feel that it would be unwise to do so and I do understand if that is the case but still why do you think this person might have acted as a mouth piece for Patty or at least a person that followed behind her so quickly that if she stopped fast he would have been in trouble. The "Mr. Bellefonte" issue ??

17

Edited by Vincennes

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If I understood you correctly, you participated in the other thread also. I'm really rather a new comer in this one. Do you have a theory or anything you lean toward thus far ?

Hi, sorry I had to run to the store, and since it was so long, it's been real slow loading when trying to reply to this.

I didn't participate on the earlier CTV or In Session, only on the Crime Library and the MUCH earlier (back in 2004 Web Detectives board about Luna only.) But the CL one is where there was SO VERY MUCH information posted by 2B, and Super Smith and Saunterer and Intuit and Common Sense, it was a real downer when that board closed so suddenly and all the posters I just mentioned lost so much info.

I NEVER believed Luna could commit suicide with a pen knife....and I truly feel Gricar was murdered as well. I started following his case on the "over there" forum only because I thought it strange that another DA went missing. I'm not sure if they are connected, but it is strange that 2 DA's were (IMO) murdered in such a short period of time. AND that JJ showed up in both boards....since I follow a number of crimes, I tend to think like most intelligent detectives, coincidences are not that common. I'm glad he's not posting here, although he is a member here.

I've also been following the McStay case (2010) and Rebecca Zahau case - both of which were handled by the San Diego Sheriff's Department and which I also feel they were badly investigated.

I rarely post, only if I have a burning question or to make a comment about info I definitely agree with.

Sorry, such a long post, I'm still hungry lol, haven't eaten yet.

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Posted (edited)

It's actually amazing to me there are that many people who would tune in and why/how we would hold their interest. Well we know that pretty much we haven't been discussing the motorcycle gangs or Sandusky much now have we.

Like I mentioned earlier, I've never seen so much interest until a majority of the posts were about Patty. Back on the CL board where I saw more information regarding her, I don't know...just have a sort of gut feeling she could be behind it, as since the first suspects are usually the spouse/lover and that's because a great amount of them are guilty.

LOL, did I scare everyone away? Guess I'll just go back to lurking.

Edited by Caramina
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Please tell me no, it's not possible, that this has remained a mystery for years and Ray's right there in the backyard in Patty's cistern. With the deference they treated Patty with ????

Docy, you need to stop coming up with these type things cuz this one left me right at .... :w00t: ! :lol:: )))))

Just a idea from a case that happen in our town. A little two year old girl was missing, someone put diapers by the river to make it look like she was in the river, her mother was in the search.The teams search that river for months and they also were looking in all the old wells in the neighborhood. A detective decided to check out the garage again where she had lived and found her stuff in a box dead, her mother and boyfriend killed her.

If RG was murdered,the car and lap top were a set up to make it looked like he was in the river. I suggest looking more around his home for his body.

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Just a idea from a case that happen in our town. A little two year old girl was missing, someone put diapers by the river to make it look like she was in the river, her mother was in the search.The teams search that river for months and they also were looking in all the old wells in the neighborhood. A detective decided to check out the garage again where she had lived and found her stuff in a box dead, her mother and boyfriend killed her.

If RG was murdered,the car and lap top were a set up to make it looked like he was in the river. I suggest looking more around his home for his body.

I keep thinking something like this. For all we know he was dead soon after arriving home from work Thursday night and is buried west of the town, not east.

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Do we know what PF said happened Thursday? Did RG tell PF why he needed to go to the office? What did she say about the park sighting? Were they fighting? Why did they leave? Where did both of them go? What time did she say RG got home from the office? We are told he is seen leaving around 9:15 pm. So what did they do that evening? What time did they go to bed? What were they talking about that night? Could the police tell what RG was working on that night at the office? Did anyone check his computer? There are so many things unknown by the public, you would hope the police checked them out. I am also amazed at how many interviews of the key people by the press are not very thorough. Almost all the reports I have read whether printed in 2005 or 2015 give almost the same scenario, with some variation, but no new questions answered. Patty, please tell us about Thursday.

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MB, thanks for posting that timeline. That's actually what I wanted to review when I asked for links to original articles. I think that council woman's observation is perhaps a critical one.

However, something else just occurred to me. Rewatching the ID doc yesterday, I was bothered by a something that was quoted as being said by Patty and that was that she didn't think anything of it when Ray said he was coming in because he did that OFTEN ~~ Now that was a quote so I know allowance must be given that it's a misquote but really ???

There was something else too. I've read time and again in multiple articles that the police gave immediate consideration to the fact that Ray had "gone off" before and ended up at a Cleveland Indians game after an argument with his exwife. I even brought it up a few posts back it's so stressed in what I've read.

Well, think about that for a minute. 1) It had been MULTIPLE years ago when he was married before 2) His ex-wife had even moved out of town shortly after their divorce. WHO made the detectives so immediately aware that he had "gone missing" before ??? You think that LE would have even had a record of what happened in their files of what happened during a simple husband / wife spat ? Who might have been right there, Johnny on the Spot, :su making them aware of that ~~~~ Hummmm ~~~~ And your first guess doesn't count.

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Posted (edited)

Vin

Something else about that timeline if true, she calls only her brother at 8:30 pm before calling the police at 11:30pm. It alleges she never called any of RG's friends or relatives. Its still before 9pm on the west coast, where RG's daughter lives, so why not at least call her, and ask when is the last time you talked to him? We know the daughter claimed Thursday but PF would not know that Friday night(or maybe she would). Maybe PF has no personal friends to call, and maybe none of RG's friends were really close. We have heard Sloane was close, so why not call him. Since PF was one, she would know all of RG's coworkers, why not call them? She had to call her bro as soon as she got home from the gym. What did her brother do in response to her call? Did he come rushing over? My first thought under these circumstances would be RG was called out on a DA related emergency, my second thought would be a car accident, her first thought was he wanted to leave her and be alone. So she calls bro for reassurance? Very, Very Strange. How about- "Bro, Ray's not home! Can you check with the hospitals and police departments between here and Lewisburg, I am going to call our police here and some of the ADA's and ray's friend Sloane." Nope, she asks why would he leave me?

Edited by mbrn30000
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wi- for some reason your last post did not go over here. I am wondering what the date means? There was no report on Thursday. another strange thing.

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I have always found it odd that she didn't call Sloane. That would have been my first phone call.

Also, with regards to Thursday 4/14... check out this screen cap from the Bellefonte PD website:

zpsDPMz.png

That's from this website: https://sites.google...site/raygricar/

(not sure who made this site, but thank you to whoever did. Among other things, the timeline is a good resource, and the archiving this screen cap was clutch... that screen cap is from 1/29/2009).

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wi- for some reason your last post did not go over here. I am wondering what the date means? There was no report on Thursday. another strange thing.

I just reposted it here since it didn't carry over.

I have no idea what the date means, but it does not appear to be an accident. Given how publicized this was (and the prominence of 4/15 in the minds of any American seeing as its Tax Day), I have a hard time someone "mistakenly" put 4/14.

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2 users and 16 guests viewing the topic when I last checked. I was just Over Yonder, and there was one user (me) and 0 guests viewing the topic.

Perhaps this means we're on the right trail ;-)

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Just a note to let everyone know that this thread is a continuation of the previous Ray Gricar thread which has now been archived because its enormous size had been causing slow loading times and general performance issues on the forums.

The excessive number of guests may have also been to do with the sheer size of the thread ( 200+ pages. )

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(This post is delayed with the change over it got hung up but I'm glad they separated this, perhaps that's why I was missing so many posts that would only show up when I happened to go back. )

MB, I'm with you on that, only difference would have been my first thought even with my own historically cheating ex would have been that he'd had an accident (that's because cheaters are very good at setting up their excuses first, not winging it) but the DA emergency also seems like a very logical one. KA said that Ray had established an unbreakable routine with LE that he would always be called first, then if they did not receive a response from him that they would call the ADAs in order of seniority. That the seniority list of numbers was published and available to LE and other DAs. That means to me IF that was her thought that the primary source for someone having a DA emergency would have been LE, so that would mean again Patty should have simply called and asked them if anything was going on. Why would her emphasis have been to avoid calling them ?

My thought would be as far as the ridiculous call to the brother (I've said before I think of that as "Bubbie, do you think he will still take me to the prom?" ) My question is did her brother smoke ?

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Posted (edited)

My thought would be as far as the ridiculous call to the brother (I've said before I think of that as "Bubbie, do you think he will still take me to the prom?" ) My question is did her brother smoke ?

Good question about the smoking.

The more I think about it, the less I find it believable.

According to what we know, and we don't know everything and what we do know might not be accurate, but what we think we know:

RG is likely at work Thursday, though the record does not speak to that much. He is seen with PF in the park about 5:30pm. and appears unhappy? depressed? that is what the commissioner said who spoke to him, again according to reports.

They leave the park. PF goes where? we do not know. RG goes to work at about 6:30pm and reemerges from the office around 9:15pm. Drops off earth apparently. No discussion of what PF and RG did when or if he came home until the next morning. Why did they not discuss the next day and their plans that night. If they did, their plans apparently were not settled. Maybe the police know. Maybe they bothered to ask. None of the reporters have asked on the record.

Patty speaks to him in the morning after bringing him OJ I guess in his bed. He says he is either taking the morning off or the day off depending on the story in the press. Not sure why she had to, since she just spoke to him, but she leaves him a note to call her if he needs her to let the dog out at noon. So did he say I am taking the morning off or the day off? And why solicit the call, since he is right there...maybe he did roll over, but he just put acidic OJ in his stomach unsolicited from PF. But he rolls over and she doesn't want to bother him with a simple question. Next thing we hear is he calls at 11:30, talks to paramour only, says what? I am taking the afternoon off too? I am out riding around? I am driving to Lewisburg? I am going antiquing and in any case, go home let pooch out. No discussion of how long have you been up? Or anything.

Then we assume PF goes home, lets dog out, has lunch, runs errands some people said in here. Then leaves work around 5pm? then gets home, lets dog run, doesn't eat because in some stories she expects to go to dinner with Ray. At this time the stories vary too. A. She expects him to be home B. Surprised he is not home, but not concerned C. Surprised he is not home and that she finds no note (not sure why she would expect a note since if he is not home, maybe he has never gotten home yet) D. He must have decided to stop and eat somewhere..again how inconsiderate if they always eat at that restaurant Friday night a fact easily checked.

Then she goes to work out. No mention if she tried to call RG's cell yet anywhere. Normal thing to do.call and leave message.Like "hey Ray are we still going to dinner you know the restaurant we go to every Friday? I am going to the gym be back in two hours." Does she make any other attempt to call from the gym? we do not know that. She gets home I am guessing between 1900-2000 and then she starts calling RG over and over? not sure. Then at 2030 she calls her bro all upset thinking the worst. not that he is dead in a ditch but he has ditched her. Does not call a single sole who might know he is dead in a ditch, working on an emergency, at a bar with a friend. She apparently sits brooding, staring at her watch, and the door and the phone for 3 hrs and calls the police at 2330 and says what? Ray did not come home, I think..... well not sure what she told them she thinks, but she told her bro he must be out thinking...

So again tell us about Thursday night PF.

Edited by mbrn30000
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There was something else too. I've read time and again in multiple articles that the police gave immediate consideration to the fact that Ray had "gone off" before and ended up at a Cleveland Indians game after an argument with his exwife. I even brought it up a few posts back it's so stressed in what I've read.

Well, think about that for a minute. 1) It had been MULTIPLE years ago when he was married before 2) His ex-wife had even moved out of town shortly after their divorce. WHO made the detectives so immediately aware that he had "gone missing" before ??? You think that LE would have even had a record of what happened in their files of what happened during a simple husband / wife spat ? Who might have been right there, Johnny on the Spot, :su making them aware of that ~~~~ Hummmm ~~~~ And your first guess doesn't count.

If you're thinking Patty, no.

It was Steve Sloane who told LE about Ray's unannounced trip to the Indians game. But as I noted previously on part 1 of this thread, Sloane's story and TG's version have one rather big contradiction, in that TG insisted the marriage with EG was all but over an Ray had no one he needed to report to if he felt like going to a ball game. It only became an issue at the time because of its proximity to Roy's disappearance. EG became worried, and I give her a pass on that. I probably would have worried as well in her shoes.

Allegedly Sloane tipped LE off to this prior trip simply to say, "Hey, put out an APB at the ball park and have them check their lot for the Mini." I have no problem with that, either. I do have a problem with the way BD used the spur of the moment, overnight trip to watch his favorite ball team into a "past history of walkaway."

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