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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

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2 users and 16 guests viewing the topic when I last checked. I was just Over Yonder, and there was one user (me) and 0 guests viewing the topic.

Perhaps this means we're on the right trail ;-)

It's always hard to tell what draws viewers in bigger numbers (and hard to know who those viewers are--message board posters from other boards? Interested citizens? Members of LE, since we know at least MR used to read the boards...

I used to get a kick out of posters analyzing the "why" when we were on other boards. I might have been sure it was pages of posts on the science of witness identification, showing why it was dangerous to accept any of the alleged sightings of RG, while I'd hear from three friends sure the viewership was up because *they* had been pounding home X, Y, or Z. And I'd have to think, yeah, it could have been any of those.

As for the recent PF discussion: Tony Gricar used to say, when he posted with us, that the discussions tended to get circular. Ten years out, that observation couldn't be truer. What seems new to some (and is new to some) is perhaps the 20th reincarnation of the same discussion.

There's nothing particularly wrong with revisiting topics since fresh eyes can often see fresh things. But I tend to think (MOO) no new ground has been tred in the PF discussion. Maybe newcomers to the case are drawn to that.

*****But I wonder if your "catch" re the red Jeep isn't what's spiking readership.******That's great detective work, the kind of thing a cold case squad hopes to find, a new clue which might lead somewhere,

The other thing: there's been lively discussion going on re Gricar here, lots to read and consider, regardless of subject. Over Yonder, nothing much is happening except for a few pontificating posts from BD which ignore that Tony and Chris thought of their dad's suicide while en route and heard the Mini was at WATER street. When he saw the scene, Tony merely said it **evoked** the scene where his dad's car had been left--not **matched.** that whole deal with the curved detail on the Dayton bridge vs the straight detail on the Lewisburg bridge is laughable. I've always maintained that Tony meant this: car, river, bridge, park=evokes the scene where dad's car was left. Most logical Gricar poster, my foot. So maybe readers are coming over her for a lively, more logical discussion of what happened to Ray, minus the pontificating, from posters who for the most part are willing to say"this is just my opinion," "I could be wrong," "Here's my source," etc.

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If you're thinking Patty, no.

It was Steve Sloane who told LE about Ray's unannounced trip to the Indians game. But as I noted previously on part 1 of this thread, Sloane's story and TG's version have one rather big contradiction, in that TG insisted the marriage with EG was all but over an Ray had no one he needed to report to if he felt like going to a ball game. It only became an issue at the time because of its proximity to Roy's disappearance. EG became worried, and I give her a pass on that. I probably would have worried as well in her shoes.

Allegedly Sloane tipped LE off to this prior trip simply to say, "Hey, put out an APB at the ball park and have them check their lot for the Mini." I have no problem with that, either. I do have a problem with the way BD used the spur of the moment, overnight trip to watch his favorite ball team into a "past history of walkaway."

I was definitely thinking it was Patty, so thanks for clearing that up at least there's one thing that don't seem to land directly at her feet.

I have another question and maybe the answer is available on one of the maps or maybe 2B...? How far, long of an average trip, from Patty's house to the CH and/or from Patty's house to the park. I'm thinking this because all of the 4/14/ reports put them at the park at 5:30 - That's only half and hour after normal office hours. Did they run home say to heck with dinner, let's just go fordeep discussion in the park ? We don't know how long that deep conversation lasted but Ray is seen entering back into the CH at 6:15. Not much time to finish a deep conversation, go home and eat something.

Here my suspicious mind, my tendency to cast theories, but it occurs to me that a deep conversation in the park might just have been one that he didn't want to go "home" to have. Was he fearing being more locked in so to speak or facing the possibility of more of a scene at "home." After that conversation ended did he in fact not go home at all but seek his office as further "shelter."

I was amazed and strengthened that all of the things we've discussed relating to Patty's weird who to call thoughts are voiced in the site WIG posted : https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/

What were you meaning with your " acidic orange juice" comment ? When I did participate for a minute in this thread way back I remember Simply Bill saying that there was something about bringing that orange juice that bothered him. He asked if it bothered anyone else and I don't think anyone ever answered him but I always wondered why that bothered him. I wish Bill were still participating in the thread I think he'd be glad to see that the orange juice caught your attention too.

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Caramina!!!

Cyber gremlins just stole a long post I wrote to you!

I'lol repost when I'm not as pressed for time. Sorry! :-(

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What were you meaning with your " acidic orange juice" comment ? When I did participate for a minute in this thread way back I remember Simply Bill saying that there was something about bringing that orange juice that bothered him. He asked if it bothered anyone else and I don't think anyone ever answered him but I always wondered why that bothered him. I wish Bill were still participating in the thread I think he'd be glad to see that the orange juice caught your attention too.

I said acidic OJ and my thinking is, who would want that on their empty stomach if they were just going to sleep? I am not getting that. Do people really say good morning with OJ in bed? Maybe so, but I would not want it. Maybe if I had gotten up and gone to the kitchen and it was handed to me. Did RG say, take that away, I am going to sleep some more..apparently PF left that out. Acid on an empty stomach laying down, is a formula for indigestion I think. Maybe I am wrong, but I would never risk it. I would more like to be greeted with coffee, but only if I intended to spring out of bed.

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I was definitely thinking it was Patty, so thanks for clearing that up at least there's one thing that don't seem to land directly at her feet.

I have another question and maybe the answer is available on one of the maps or maybe 2B...? How far, long of an average trip, from Patty's house to the CH and/or from Patty's house to the park. I'm thinking this because all of the 4/14/ reports put them at the park at 5:30 - That's only half and hour after normal office hours. Did they run home say to heck with dinner, let's just go fordeep discussion in the park ? We don't know how long that deep conversation lasted but Ray is seen entering back into the CH at 6:15. Not much time to finish a deep conversation, go home and eat something.

Here my suspicious mind, my tendency to cast theories, but it occurs to me that a deep conversation in the park might just have been one that he didn't want to go "home" to have. Was he fearing being more locked in so to speak or facing the possibility of more of a scene at "home." After that conversation ended did he in fact not go home at all but seek his office as further "shelter."

I was amazed and strengthened that all of the things we've discussed relating to Patty's weird who to call thoughts are voiced in the site WIG posted : https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/

What were you meaning with your " acidic orange juice" comment ? When I did participate for a minute in this thread way back I remember Simply Bill saying that there was something about bringing that orange juice that bothered him. He asked if it bothered anyone else and I don't think anyone ever answered him but I always wondered why that bothered him. I wish Bill were still participating in the thread I think he'd be glad to see that the orange juice caught your attention too.

A real quickie here. The courthouse to park is walkable, just blocks. (We go by there a couple times a week.) The courthouse to their home was also walkable. Let me try to get a map up.

The timeline from the google site was made by then-Politigal, later Common Sense, and now our very own MrsPC. It's the result of a great deal of work, and she deserves credit for it. She was at one point a prolific Gricar poster and has amazing research skills, so everyone, please thank Mrs PC for whatever y ou take from her site. I should point out that she has long been a Patty-did-it theorist, although I've always known her to be open to other theories and to evidence that supports other ways Gricar might have been disappeared.

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A real quickie here. The courthouse to park is walkable, just blocks. (We go by there a couple times a week.) The courthouse to their home was also walkable. Let me try to get a map up.

The timeline from the google site was made by then-Politigal, later Common Sense, and now our very own MrsPC. It's the result of a great deal of work, and she deserves credit for it. She was at one point a prolific Gricar poster and has amazing research skills, so everyone, please thank Mrs PC for whatever y ou take from her site. I should point out that she has long been a Patty-did-it theorist, although I've always known her to be open to other theories and to evidence that supports other ways Gricar might have been disappeared.

Thanks for that timeline are really deserved and while we thanking, I do appreciate the local insight, historical and other back ground information you share with us. I was hoping you'd have that park distance estimate and share it. So thanks to you too :tu:

Now that I've said that even though it's possible they went home and tended to that dog's kidney issues properly (in that amount of time ??) I'm still going with my notion that seems to me to be Ray might just have made wanted to avoid going "home" and keep it to a conversation he could free himself from.

By the way did Patty have her maiden named restored after her first divorce or had she retained it throughout her first marriage ? Not that I think there's a conclusive point there because people can make those decisions for myriad reasons. However, in Patty's case, I will say again, in those press conferences I saw ego in that chick. (She's on that list of people that whatever the case involving guilt haven't given me any where near a good feeling. She's right up there with Mikey McStay )

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I can attest to what happened at Web Detectives as I was a poster there at that time, and those of us that were there when JJ joined and posted about Luna, were disgusted with his condescending attitude about what happened. He posted maps and photos of the "midnight ride". I can't remember his exact words, but they were very denigrating about Luna.

JJ in Phila is hired help. I've had enough time to concurr with 2b. Ironically, he may be the Gricar Guru cuz I do believe he knows the truth and it does not include walkaway

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JJ in Phila is hired help. I've had enough time to concurr with 2b. Ironically, he may be the Gricar Guru cuz I do believe he knows the truth and it does not include walkaway

The question then is "who hired him?".

I will say one thing, and this comes from my own sleuthing, but I'm sure others have noticed it given his identity is well known at this point.... JJ is a guy who seems to staunchly support conservative/Republican candidates and ideals, yet he's apparently a big fan of democrat Stacy Parks Miller and has been for awhile. I found no other examples of democrat causes or politicians he has supported. And you can never see an article about SPM's indiscretions these days without JJ defending her in the comments section.

That's a whole different angle on the case I've been looking at though and haven't brought up. But apparently, SPM and RG had emailed a few times on 4/14. And I've been in contact with our friend fromthedeepestjungle, and he swears he saw Gricar with a blonde around 10 AM on 4/15. Now, his lack of punctuation notwithstanding, his story in that regard has been consistent from Day 1 (I also have theories about his lack of punctuation. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know that theory... but I do believe we should not automatically dismiss what he says just because his posts are hard to understand). I had a few private exchanges with him, and if he really did work where he says he did in the 90s, then he's someone that would absolutely 100% be able to identify Ray Gricar. He did acknowledge he couldn't get a good enough look at "the blonde in the car" to identify her, but he believes it could have been SPM. In fact, the first post he ever made Over Yonder was a question about SPM.

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And that goes wherever it goes. I do have a question though, why would it make any sense for this JJ person to seize every opportunity to denigrate Ray and yet be the first float in Patty's parade. Why, cuz Patty loved Ray didn't she ??? Cuz he was he soul mate ??? That just might make me think Patty ended up with some kind of axe to grind against Ray and couldn't do it herself.

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Posted (edited)

JJ in Phila is hired help. I've had enough time to concurr with 2b. Ironically, he may be the Gricar Guru cuz I do believe he knows the truth and it does not include walkaway

Is he a lawyer? Long ago I watched a local trial. What a shock it was to me. I thought the questions put forth by both the prosecution and the defense were to bring out the truth from the witnesses. By the time the trial was over, it seemed to me that it was all "just a game" of words and that the best "actor" won. Since then I have found out that both the defense and prosecution send out people to read and I believe they also post in forums.

Ah, technology.....

Edited by Caramina

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Posted (edited)

April 14, 2005 - Gricar is seen in courthouse surveillance video entering the courthouse at approx 6:15 pm to do some work, and is seen leaving approx 9:15 pm. He is wearing blue jeans, sneakers and a blue fleece jacket. He is not carrying his laptop computer. This is the same outfit he is reportedly wearing when missing.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola states that Gricar woke up and told her he was going to take 1/2 the day off from work and then he went back to sleep. She left him a note instructing that if he went anywhere, to let her know so that she could make arrangements to let the dog out at noon

Odd that she says nothing about him ever coming home that night, but claims she spoke with him the next morning.

Edited by docyabut2
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Opps that came out small, gee ladies would `nt one know what time their husband or boyfriend came creeping in:)

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And that goes wherever it goes. I do have a question though, why would it make any sense for this JJ person to seize every opportunity to denigrate Ray and yet be the first float in Patty's parade. Why, cuz Patty loved Ray didn't she ??? Cuz he was he soul mate ??? That just might make me think Patty ended up with some kind of axe to grind against Ray and couldn't do it herself.

His "Patty Defender" status was not long-lived in the scope of the last ten years, however. His entrance into Gricar message board discussion in September 2006 on the CTV boards occurred at a time when we were giving serious consideration to the *theory* that PF could have been responsible for the disappearance. This was less than 1.5 years post-disappearance and every conceivable theory (lured to Lewisburg, suicide, walkaway, fugue state amnesia, Taji Lee drug case, etc.) was under the microscope. It just happened to be PF's turn when he entered.

It's true one of his first posts was the proclamation that all discussion of PF should be off the table, very arrogant since the etiquette of entering a new board is to scope out the environment and ease into the conversation, not command that established posters follow orders of a newbie. And it's true his defense of PF was over the top at the time. At this point I wonder if it's not because he knew her at PSU. He did after all make it clear he'd met Gino, her uncle, while in college. He was at UP only 2 years--maybe it was a PF connection that led to that meeting? Just spitballing on that.

Another possibility exists, and it's not mutually exclusive with the above scenario. He has many clearly identifiable (at this point) strategies he uses to deal with discussion. One of those most of us saw not long into his posting history was a habit of derailing discussion with absurdities any time he didn't like the direction a conversation was going.

If you look at the last few pages Over Yonder right now, that's precisely what he's doing with his maps and protractors and curved detail on bridges silliness. He's trying to make it appear that no one could have staged the scene in Lewisburg to remind others of Roy's suicide **when in fact all it took was Ray's car being parked near a river to make Tony and Chris think this was Roy, Redux while they were driving in from Ohio.**

BD is trying to throw up smoke and mirrors with newspaper dates and number of bridges and bridge details. All that had to happen at the time of Roy's death was for someone, likely Ray, to mention CAR, RIVER, BRIDGE, PARK. someone staging the scene isn't trying to match Roy's scene, just suggest it enough that it confounded LE and the public for a while.

But staging suggests murder, and BD can't have that. Pressed to consider murder in his blogger role, the only 2 murder scenarios he ever published involved Ray's death as a result of his own lack of character and lack of integrity. He couldn't even conceive of Ray being an innocent victim.

Anyway, I realize I've lost my original focus and meandered off course in this post. Let me just re-focus by saying the whole PF defender thing was a phase he appears to have grown out of long ago.

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Is he a lawyer? Long ago I watched a local trial. What a shock it was to me. I thought the questions put forth by both the prosecution and the defense were to bring out the truth from the witnesses. By the time the trial was over, it seemed to me that it was all "just a game" of words and that the best "actor" won. Since then I have found out that both the defense and prosecution send out people to read and I believe they also post in forums.

Ah, technology.....

He's a disabled, retired caseworker for social services with five years of work history before retirement (which makes you wonder about a connection to the JS case through Harrisburg and why it took him mere hours to proclaim on his blog that the '98 decision was a collosal lapse in judgment" on Gricar's part, a phrase he repeated ad nauseum. Mere hours! The first news that JS was not prosecuted in '98 hits the news and BAM, RG was negligent.)

He's also a parliamentarian and hires himself out to do parliamentary type matters.

But I have no doubt what you say is true with social media today--not only with lawyers but also with political types and probably with unsolved disappearances of sitting DA's.....

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April 14, 2005 - Gricar is seen in courthouse surveillance video entering the courthouse at approx 6:15 pm to do some work, and is seen leaving approx 9:15 pm. He is wearing blue jeans, sneakers and a blue fleece jacket. He is not carrying his laptop computer. This is the same outfit he is reportedly wearing when missing.

· April 15, 2005 - Girlfriend Patty Fornicola states that Gricar woke up and told her he was going to take 1/2 the day off from work and then he went back to sleep. She left him a note instructing that if he went anywhere, to let her know so that she could make arrangements to let the dog out at noon

Odd that she says nothing about him ever coming home that night, but claims she spoke with him the next morning.

In an interview with GVS back in 2005, PF was asked something along the lines of how Ray was Thursday night and whether she noticed anything out of the ordinary (not an exact quote, but that was the gist). Patty said everything was normal.

BTW, we all believed for years that Ray left the office at 9:15 pm. I think it was the Disappeared episode which corrected this to 8:15, and that seemed corroborated by the light conditions in the video that released at that time of his entrance/exit. In mid-April in central PA, it's completely dark. The video appears to show the tail end of dusk (even considering parking lot lights).

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BTW, we all believed for years that Ray left the office at 9:15 pm. I think it was the Disappeared episode which corrected this to 8:15, and that seemed corroborated by the light conditions in the video that released at that time of his entrance/exit. In mid-April in central PA, it's completely dark. The video appears to show the tail end of dusk (even considering parking lot lights).

I almost pointed that out earlier too. It would have been completely dark by 9:15.... 8:15 seems much more likely.

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I really have gone over the things in the Mrs. PC link and there is so much information there. For one thing it has a map which shows the distance from the CH to Patty's house. While I can see what you were saying, it does seem like it would be walkable it doesn't seem to me as if it would fit into the time frame of the 5:30 pm discussion in the park. Either to be home and then be back there by 5:30 or for Ray to have then walked home and be back to that office by 6:15 pm. It raised up my theory a notch that the location of the meeting in the park was chosen by someone who wanted to avoid a home situation.

In going over as many of these videos and the other ones I can find, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the ones retracted or incur a "violation of ownership rights" are the ones Patty appears in. Now it's funny because the ones with his daughter still play but not when Patty was one of the "stars." That's funny if her performances were actually trying to ask for the public's aid in finding Ray, her soul-mate, funny indeed. Even if it wasn't Patty (which I doubt) but some other technical legal issue, I'd want to take on anyone I could no matter how high up in channel ID to keep those videos out there searching for clues forever. I'd refilm them and repost them if it were my loved one.

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Looks like we have another defector from Over Yonder.

Welcome Cutter99!

Soon enough, JJ isn't going to have an audience anymore.

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Okay- now I understand where Over Yonder is! Thank you for the welcome wijg!

I am a native Pennsylvanian and worked a sales territory that covered the area Ray Gricar disappeared from. My husband is also a PSU grad and taught at University Park for over 20 years. I have witnessed what was going on Over Yonder for the last few years and would comment until I was bashed and shut down for anything I posted.

Another travesty in the state of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is Jonathan Luna. I think about his wife and children and how unfair it has been to them. I was laughed at for suggesting he was murdered!

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Okay- now I understand where Over Yonder is! Thank you for the welcome wijg!

I am a native Pennsylvanian and worked a sales territory that covered the area Ray Gricar disappeared from. My husband is also a PSU grad and taught at University Park for over 20 years. I have witnessed what was going on Over Yonder for the last few years and would comment until I was bashed and shut down for anything I posted.

Another travesty in the state of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is Jonathan Luna. I think about his wife and children and how unfair it has been to them. I was laughed at for suggesting he was murdered!

Welcome to the discussion and to U - M :st

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Posted (edited)

In an interview with GVS back in 2005, PF was asked something along the lines of how Ray was Thursday night and whether she noticed anything out of the ordinary (not an exact quote, but that was the gist). Patty said everything was normal.

BTW, we all believed for years that Ray left the office at 9:15 pm. I think it was the Disappeared episode which corrected this to 8:15, and that seemed corroborated by the light conditions in the video that released at that time of his entrance/exit. In mid-April in central PA, it's completely dark. The video appears to show the tail end of dusk (even considering parking lot lights).

What about the clothes RG was wearing in the video leaving the office at 8:15 or 9:15 pm, that evening . Did she ever come up with those clothes to say he ever came home that night and changed that night to the next morning ?

Edited by docyabut2
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What about the clothes RG was wearing in the video leaving the office at 8:15 or 9:15 pm, that evening . Did she ever come up with those clothes to say he ever came home that night and changed that night to the next morning ?

Docy, I think we are facing the fact here that Patty was never really required to come up with anything. I don't think there search of the house included anything further than standing in her living room and calling out, "Ray, are you here ?" While they were all pondering the significance of Ray's searches for how to destroy a hard drive or clean one, no one even seems to have given a thought to the fact Patty had his passwords. As 2 has posted back a ways, if she was stand up innocent, they really did her no favors by immediately affording her a position of absolute prestige, untouchable, above it all.

I really want to know if that brother smoked because besides transporting his body, transporting that car to its location is another big thing she would have absolutely needed help with.

I've been really active in three other threads since I joined U-M, the Rebecca Zauha murder, Elisa Lam and the McStays (initial Sheriff's Dept.) and in each of these cases LE has been so derelict in performing any of the things that would be ordinarily logical to anyone. Then after running around displaying the IQs of monkeys in those investigations, they do finally pull themselves together enough to try and cover the tracks of their stupidity; e.g., Patty's lie detector test given 4 months later and running to the press then with proclamations of her innocence. Covering their axxs is what they always seem to be good at doing. At least two of those victims now don't have a chance at ever finding justice.

I'm afraid I am now convinced Patty did this and she's home free with it.

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Okay- now I understand where Over Yonder is! Thank you for the welcome wijg!

I am a native Pennsylvanian and worked a sales territory that covered the area Ray Gricar disappeared from. My husband is also a PSU grad and taught at University Park for over 20 years. I have witnessed what was going on Over Yonder for the last few years and would comment until I was bashed and shut down for anything I posted.

Another travesty in the state of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is Jonathan Luna. I think about his wife and children and how unfair it has been to them. I was laughed at for suggesting he was murdered!

Welcome Cutter, a tragedy and huge injustice I believe in both cases. Luna's case is a prime example of how federal agencies can keep the lid on cases........yet they claim to want the publics help with their posters.

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What about the clothes RG was wearing in the video leaving the office at 8:15 or 9:15 pm, that evening . Did she ever come up with those clothes to say he ever came home that night and changed that night to the next morning ?

I brought this up a few years ago whereas what RG had on Thursday evening was also the description of what he was wearing Friday. Odd to me cuz Ray doesn't seem the type to wear the same clothes two days in a row.

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Interesting renewed interest. Wish that you had all been here ten years ago. So far all I see just invokes 'deja vu all over again' for me. But do carry on.

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