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Street evangelism


eight bits

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1) I was not referencing your brother. My point is 1 oz of arsenic in a reservoir will not harm anything. Now if everyone started doing it? I see Religion as poison for the mind.

Well, I hope you saw I believe you on the arsenic.

Waits a minute............ or maybe I don't.

Well, what ever, it depends on what I look to find out the information of it and what quantities, but I'm still a bit ....... skittish on things like that.................... and will always question it and feel I have something to worry about it and think there is a reason it should be illegal.

Which ever, I see that your true point is you seing Religion as point for the mind. I understand why you see that. I have come to know, you have reason to feel that way. ( Makes me want to give you a reassuring hug and go there there. Just tell me the names and I will go find them and sing them Mylie Cyrus. :yes: ((teaches them!!!))

I don't think that, I just think it's the person inside that is poisoning themselves. I'm still in the thinking that a person themselves (with their experience and what not ) that gives in to the poison and not the poison.

( totally going against how I feel about the arsenic in the water bit................... but I digress ;) )

I'm not saying that you should be wrong in your thinking................. your thinking came to be for a reason. Well, how I think and feel has come the same way.

So.............................. :tu:

2) "Wait a minute. Perhaps she's right. Perhaps I've been wrong to blindly follow the medical traditions and superstitions of past centuries. Maybe we barbers should test these assumptions analytically, through experimentation and a "scientific method". Maybe this scientific method could be extended to other fields of learning: the natural sciences, art, architecture, navigation. Perhaps I could lead the way to a new age, an age of rebirth, a Renaissance!...Naaaaaahhh!"...Theodoric of York
You know, I pat myself on the back for bringing that Steve Martin SNL character, which has brought you bring up memories of his character's quotes, that I think is interesting to reflect here. I see your point..................... but Theodoric is still a laugh and a half.....................................

Humor......................... always the best medicine................... ;)

3) Just a moment ago a guy offered me Christian literature. At least he asked, I said "no thanks", he said "God bless", and moved along. If he pushed it I would have told him that I'm not into having imaginary friends.
I know, and I have observed that you are very gracious in situations like this. Frankly, you probably hold yourself a lot better than myself. There have been times I don't even say 'no thanks' but just stare straight ahead with the body language saying, 'don't you even dare!' hoping to make my point.

There are times I gave quite a few of them the......................................... 'evil eye!'

You're a better person than I, Davros. :yes:

If your one kid strived to be a Pokemon master? What harm is that if he did not unleash a Squirtle on people?

:hmm:

Well, she was young at the time, and there were many Pokemon name jokes that have occurred. (Frankly, it was those DAMN collector cards!!!! We got over that eventually. )

But she has strived to unlease ............ok........... train various 'animals' on the world after she has trained them. ( My version of her animal training. )

She had always a love for animals all her life, ( Our gifts of gerbils, fish, cats, dogs, lizards, ( yup, you saw it, we gave her and her brother lizards)) and such, .............( the frogs she smuggled into the house, and we found out when they tried to escape after she was asleep and they made they way down the stairs, thump..............thump......................thump! )

She know has won numerous awards at horse shows, and works with animals at her job. *mother's pride beaming right here*

Edit to say, my point was, she went a more reality way. :D

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
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  • 11 months later...
 

AronRa learns SE.

Can the Atheist firebrand break the walls of reward system compartmentalization?

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davros

It's funny, I thought of this thread yesterday when I saw your Pastor-rants-at-kids-visiting-Santa thread.

That's an interesting vid, a demonstration of something we discussed in the first go-round in this thread. SE isn't just a "method" (Boghossian calls his book "a manual"). Its effectiveness is also because Anthony is a personally skillful performer.

So there's AronRa, a smart, well-informed guy who's comfortable in front of a camera, and he completely sucks at this. At least at this stage of his training.

Even if we give AronRa that his last interview-attempt was unfair to him (the interviewee was a dedicated apologist), it was still a failure. Not because the other guy "won," he didn't, but that the interview degenerated into a debate. It didn't have to.

Thank God the camera battery ran low and Anthony had an iron-clad excuse to intervene and call a halt - unfortunately, we also lost Anthony's post-game feedback, and I suspect that that wasn't as simple as "Oh, too bad, that guy had an agenda."

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18 hours ago, eight bits said:

davros

It's funny, I thought of this thread yesterday when I saw your Pastor-rants-at-kids-visiting-Santa thread.

That's an interesting vid, a demonstration of something we discussed in the first go-round in this thread. SE isn't just a "method" (Boghossian calls his book "a manual"). Its effectiveness is also because Anthony is a personally skillful performer.

So there's AronRa, a smart, well-informed guy who's comfortable in front of a camera, and he completely sucks at this. At least at this stage of his training.

Even if we give AronRa that his last interview-attempt was unfair to him (the interviewee was a dedicated apologist), it was still a failure. Not because the other guy "won," he didn't, but that the interview degenerated into a debate. It didn't have to.

Thank God the camera battery ran low and Anthony had an iron-clad excuse to intervene and call a halt - unfortunately, we also lost Anthony's post-game feedback, and I suspect that that wasn't as simple as "Oh, too bad, that guy had an agenda."

Yes.

Aronra was not used to the "peeling away" method of SE. But I think the last one Aron knew what that guy was all about, and his firebrand kicked in.

I wish there was more. That one guy with the regenerating limb was funny. Also a UM member here told me a similar story.

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davros

Quote

That one guy with the regenerating limb was funny. Also a UM member here told me a similar story.

There was a woman here a few years ago, I don't if she's the same one your're talking about; unfortunately I can't remember her username... something like rave girl or raver girl? ... Anyway, she was reluctant (and not an evangelist type that I ever saw), but eventually posted briefly about her experience. Her story was that she had seen a facial injury or deformity (I think it was) correct itself before her very eyes.

The guy in the vid, though, was funny. God regenerates limbs only in places that have lousy medical records. OK, that is a joke; the guy needs to listen to what he's saying. What isn't so funny, though, is that's what supposed to happen in SE, that the interviewer gets the person to listen to what they're saying, and how it sounds.

Anyway, it is a good vid. I was a little startled when I saw that it ran about 100 minutes, but it goes by quickly and the vid is entertaining as well as informative.

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On 12/18/2016 at 6:22 AM, eight bits said:

davros

There was a woman here a few years ago, I don't if she's the same one your're talking about; unfortunately I can't remember her username... something like rave girl or raver girl? ... Anyway, she was reluctant (and not an evangelist type that I ever saw), but eventually posted briefly about her experience. Her story was that she had seen a facial injury or deformity (I think it was) correct itself before her very eyes.

Interesting story. I've seen a fingerling Smallmouth Bass looking like the two Sunfish it was in the same fish tank with. I've seen a guy on a bad acid trip look like he was being flattened because he was thinking he was being buried alive. I've seen old couples look like each other for being together for 50+ years.

It was Diechecker that told me about the Africa unchronicled miracle.

On 12/18/2016 at 6:22 AM, eight bits said:

The guy in the vid, though, was funny. God regenerates limbs only in places that have lousy medical records. OK, that is a joke; the guy needs to listen to what he's saying. What isn't so funny, though, is that's what supposed to happen in SE, that the interviewer gets the person to listen to what they're saying, and how it sounds.

Yes. Get them to actually think instead of being guided by emotion.

On 12/18/2016 at 6:22 AM, eight bits said:

Anyway, it is a good vid. I was a little startled when I saw that it ran about 100 minutes, but it goes by quickly and the vid is entertaining as well as informative.

I hope others take the time to watch it. Aron was like teaching an old dog a new trick. But I understand his reaction to the last interviewee. 

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This video was made more recently (April 2016) than the original run of this thread, and Anthony puts it in his "Top 5" (which actually has nine vids, hmm) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnF6MenyiEQ

I like it mainly for the post-interview discussion, the interviewee's description of what she liked about the experience. One of the things she liked was that Anthony had said up front that confidence change was a possible result of the discussion.

That was one of my issues last year, that belief change actually is an intended goal of this activity, and back a year ago, Anthony wasn't disclosing that to interviewees. It was good to see Anthony coming around to disclosing that; I think it improves the ethical tone of the production. His saying it stuck with this person, and made the experience better for her.

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"Maybe we should've started with the Cardinal" LOL!

That was a good one. 

He did say up front to her that people come away less confident, and sometimes more confident in their beliefs from the experience. Ethics aside, this is very tactful in potentially keeping ones guard from going fully up? People want to believe.

 

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LOL!

 

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Encouraging questioning isn't the same as evangelism. I don't see an ethics problem. 

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davros

Yeah, I liked the interlude with the cardinal, too. The new "water bottle" clip is funny :) .

Anyway, I don't think ethics and efficacy necessarily conflict. Being upfront about the possibility of belief change may well both "lower somebody's guard" and also give interviewees the information they need so that their consent to the encounter is sufficiently informed.

Anthony is a good guy, candor complements his style.


Chaos

Quote

Encouraging questioning isn't the same as evangelism. I don't see an ethics problem.

Without rehashing all that was discussed last year in this thread, back at at that time, people would ask Anthony why he wanted to talk with them, and sometimes he did not candidly reveal that the desired outcome was belief change.

I have no ethical problem with open and transparent evangelism. I live in a place where that is legal. If somebody engages in conversation with street preachers who identify themselves as such, then the somebody has sufficient information to make an informed decision whether or not they wish to be evangelized.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anthony talks to Matt about SE.

 

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There is something boorish about a stranger approaching someone in the street to talk about religion.  It is not significantly different from the person reaching down and groping the other.

Setting up a stand on the corner to sell religious or political magazines is different and should be tolerated, traffic congestion and such considerations being properly handled.

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Frank

Quote

There is something boorish about a stranger approaching someone in the street to talk about religion.

Perhaps, but cultures differ.

But boorish? Meh, in a free society, you have to put up with a lot. Not so much your problem, no offense meant.

davros

Good video. Thanks for posting it.

On the before-and-after self-report issue. If indeed the immediate goal is to encourage people to examine the content, confidence and well-foundedness of their personal beliefs, then movement in the self-report is an OK metric. Only with respect to the larger goal of "making atheists" do you need to worry that a reported change may not reflect any actual change in the underlying belief.

That is also, by the way, an entry into the perennial "labeling" issue, between agnostics and atheists. As you know, I prefer overt behavioral bases for classification, rather than "belief in" self-reporting. And so, an eight-bits agnostic would go along with the idea that encouraging passer-by to engage in self-reflection is likely to be a good thing, but unlike an atheist, it is irrelevant to the "success" of an episode whether the person moves, and if they move, whether they move in some "preferred" direction.

ETA On the "personal truths" issue: The phrase itself means different things to different people. The "water bottle" clip is funny, because of the way that lady was talking and what she meant... just begging for a comic response, which Anthony crisply provided. On the other hand, elsewhere we were discussing Jesus Christ Superstar, and when Pilate sings: "What is truth? We both have truths, are yours the same as mine?." that's not so funny. There is a sense of the phrase where the answer to Pilate's last question really is "Hell, no."

Edited by eight bits
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16 hours ago, eight bits said:

davros

Good video. Thanks for posting it.

B)

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

On the before-and-after self-report issue. If indeed the immediate goal is to encourage people to examine the content, confidence and well-foundedness of their personal beliefs, then movement in the self-report is an OK metric. Only with respect to the larger goal of "making atheists" do you need to worry that a reported change may not reflect any actual change in the underlying belief.

Yeah. They can just rubberband back to their original scale on the ride home, or sooner post interview. I see SE as more social experiment than effective, not that it has no effects.

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

That is also, by the way, an entry into the perennial "labeling" issue, between agnostics and atheists. As you know, I prefer overt behavioral bases for classification, rather than "belief in" self-reporting. And so, an eight-bits agnostic would go along with the idea that encouraging passer-by to engage in self-reflection is likely to be a good thing, but unlike an atheist, it is irrelevant to the "success" of an episode whether the person moves, and if they move, whether they move in some "preferred" direction.

As you know I prefer the K.I.S.S. method when it comes to those pesky labels.

16 hours ago, eight bits said:

ETA On the "personal truths" issue: The phrase itself means different things to different people. The "water bottle" clip is funny, because of the way that lady was talking and what she meant... just begging for a comic response, which Anthony crisply provided. On the other hand, elsewhere we were discussing Jesus Christ Superstar, and when Pilate sings: "What is truth? We both have truths, are yours the same as mine?." that's not so funny. There is a sense of the phrase where the answer to Pilate's last question really is "Hell, no."

Personal truths are just emotionally charged opinions.

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davros

Quote

rubberband

Maybe the most effective thing that Anthony does is to hand out his business card afterwards. As he said in the video (and he's talked about it before, too), some people really do contact him afterwards, sometimes reporting further thinking or change in their thinking. Now that's different from Socrates :) (and by "effective" I mean for the overall goal of "making atheists").

Quote

Personal truths are just emotionally charged opinions.

Even the most rigorous formal argument rests finally on premises that are assumed to be true. It's a person who does the assuming. This is inevitable.

There are other complications in "personal truth" as well, but the assumption of premises comes with a guarantee that it doesn't ever go away, because it can't. You might change the content of somebody's premises, but you can't change the personal character of whatever premises they hold.

There is simply no chance that Pilate's premises matched Jesus' premises. Real man or storybook character Jesus; that's the same either way.

Jesus: My kingdom is not of this world.

Pilate probably believed in some "other world," but Jesus wasn't a king there, either.

 

This is simply irresistable to include. Praise the HDG.

Edited by eight bits
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22 hours ago, eight bits said:

Frank

Perhaps, but cultures differ.

But boorish? Meh, in a free society, you have to put up with a lot. Not so much your problem, no offense meant.

davros

Good video. Thanks for posting it.

On the before-and-after self-report issue. If indeed the immediate goal is to encourage people to examine the content, confidence and well-foundedness of their personal beliefs, then movement in the self-report is an OK metric. Only with respect to the larger goal of "making atheists" do you need to worry that a reported change may not reflect any actual change in the underlying belief.

That is also, by the way, an entry into the perennial "labeling" issue, between agnostics and atheists. As you know, I prefer overt behavioral bases for classification, rather than "belief in" self-reporting. And so, an eight-bits agnostic would go along with the idea that encouraging passer-by to engage in self-reflection is likely to be a good thing, but unlike an atheist, it is irrelevant to the "success" of an episode whether the person moves, and if they move, whether they move in some "preferred" direction.

ETA On the "personal truths" issue: The phrase itself means different things to different people. The "water bottle" clip is funny, because of the way that lady was talking and what she meant... just begging for a comic response, which Anthony crisply provided. On the other hand, elsewhere we were discussing Jesus Christ Superstar, and when Pilate sings: "What is truth? We both have truths, are yours the same as mine?." that's not so funny. There is a sense of the phrase where the answer to Pilate's last question really is "Hell, no."

 

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Frank

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Yes boorish.  I didn't imply illegal, just bad manners and, well, boorish.

I don't know. Curious thing, for whatever reason (luck of the small sample, I guess) whenever IRL I am accosted by a religious vendor (as opposed to a political or commercial one - it's not just legal here, it's a lifestyle for some people), it's a Mormon. They're so polite, it makes your teeth ache.

And as I've posted before, on one occasion what the Mormon ladies actually pitched were the LDS genealogical services, which are awesome if you are into genealogy (as I am).

Now, they didn't bag me either for the service (I already use it regularly), or for their church (that will be a frosty day in Hell). But they've just gotten a free advertisement for both (this post). And they weren't rude or boorish, on the contrary, they offered useful information about an authentic service at a very attractive price (my immortal soul).

In for a penny, in for a pound. Here's the address:

https://familysearch.org/search/

Thanks, ladies.

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~

 

[00.03:10]

~

Translation : Don't worry, be happy ...

:yes:

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

In recent months, Anthony has promoted the channels of several street epistemologists. There are seven on the first page of his video list:

https://www.youtube.com/user/magnabosco210/videos

His own vids are just a minute or so each, introducing the channel.

Here are two examples of other people's work that may be entertaining. Anthony especially liked this video for the reaction of the interviewee afterwards:

 


Anthony recommended the calm dememanor of the interviewer on this channel. As an example, I chose this vid, where the interviewee is an icon of the Southern California that Americans adore; this lady makes most religious folk seem tough-minded by comparison :)

 

 

Edited by eight bits
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