Forgiveness

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I find your post Hammer, very interesting. I think the overall of your points, makes very strong sense. I agree, pain is there to remind us. Just as pleasure does that as well. I kind of liken that to forgetting the worst experiences that mold you, as forgetting the best ones to, like getting your degrees, positive life changes, (marriage, births, etc). Should we all forget the good ones as well? And having to be told that you can remember those but work at forgetting the bad, is something that is work that the victim should never have to work at. They shouldn't have to. That's the job of those who harmed. 

Reading your post, again reminds me of that quote from the HBO show 'Westworld'. (Thank you Elon Musk!  ) Some of the 'hosts' who say, why should you take away my grief? It's all I have of them. I find that very telling. ( Well, that and "It's not something I ever seen before", who knows, I might say that as well, later on on these boards, if it looks like I'm not all I should be.  ) But the point being, the bad is just as important, as the good experiences. And I think it's just as important to have them to remind those who harmed to. You know, for them to learn from their wrong doing.  

Now reading your first sentence of your post, 'forgiving is the easy part', I get a little  at. Is forgiving the easy part. Isn't what you mentioned after this first sentence, part of the forgiving process? I don't know if it's me, but the 'forgiving' is the result, after all that was mentioned has been done. It almost sounds to me, that it's not truthfully forgiving. It's like the opposite, instead. I don't know, I guess that could be just me, I feel once those who have accomplished what you wonderfully said about what is hard, then the forgiving begins. *shrugs* 

But, thank you, Hammer, I find your post overall, very down to the heart.       

Perhaps I should have included the phrase, "Comparatively speaking". To answer your question--no it is not. If a man you trusted thrashed you to an inch of your life, you might eventually, out of a sense of Christian Charity, find it in your heart to forgive---but you'd never forget the beating, the fear, the pain, not to mention the lingering suspicion and distrust. No it's not package deal at all. It's not your noblesse oblige to wipe the slate clean or for anyone to dictate to you the terms of forgiveness--because that's what a Christian is suppose to do or any other altruistic reason only you, it seems, are obliged to practice. People will always try to twist an use your moral scruples against you. You're not at all obligated to let them.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[Stubbly_Dooright]

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Perhaps I should have included the phrase, "Comparatively speaking". To answer your question--no it is not. If a man you trusted thrashed you to an inch of your life, you might eventually, out of a sense of Christian Charity, find it in your heart to forgive---but you'd never forget the beating, the fear, the pain, not to mention the lingering suspicion and distrust. No it's not package deal at all.

I always have felt that forgiving was something you earned. To just forgive, just like that, isn't that empty? I don't think you can honestly forgive, when you just 'do it'. I just feel it's not being honest with yourself. 

Quote

It's not your noblesse oblige to wipe the slate clean or for anyone to dictate to you the terms of forgiveness--because that's what a Christian is suppose to do or any other altruistic reason only you, it seems, are obliged to practice. People will always try to twist an use your moral scruples against you. You're not at all obligated to let them.

That is what I have always thought. Why should someone, after being harmed, be obligated to 'forgive'? Shouldn't the harmer be the one to be obligated to make things right? I think you brougth up some awesome points here. Definitely food for thought for this thread. (((Hugs)))

[ellapenella]

On 1/24/2017 at 10:39 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I always have felt that forgiving was something you earned. To just forgive, just like that, isn't that empty? I don't think you can honestly forgive, when you just 'do it'. I just feel it's not being honest with yourself. 

That is what I have always thought. Why should someone, after being harmed, be obligated to 'forgive'? Shouldn't the harmer be the one to be obligated to make things right? I think you brougth up some awesome points here. Definitely food for thought for this thread. (((Hugs)))

It's deeper than your understanding and mine.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

4 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

It's deeper than your understanding and mine.

Well, I find this statement very vague. Where is your source that it is deeper than both our understandings. ( and if you hadn't noticed, that's why the thread, so we all can explore how it is deeper, if that is the case. And since, I created this thread to view, explore, and get point of views from both sides of the religious/spiritual and the side of the non-believers/Atheists, saying it's deeper and that's it, doesn't explained how both sides view it in complete description. 

If you know it's a complete fact that it's deeper, than maybe you can show how it is, since that is what you're saying. 

Also, how does your answer of it's deeper answer my question here: " That is what I have always thought. Why should someone, after being harmed, be obligated to 'forgive'? Shouldn't the harmer be the one to be obligated to make things right?"

Frankly, I think I asked a question that describes this topic in human emotions, actions, and ramifications. I don't think it can get any deeper in the actual emotions, actions, and the ramifications, considering one can experience and observed said things. 

If you meant to say, you think it's deeper than both our understandings, fine, that's your opinion. Either you have your contribution from your observation to submit, or it's just a one statement opinion, that to me, doesn't get to the heart of the question I put forth. 

I don't mind deeper, but why it's deeper is the main goal here. Care to contribute more?

[jmccr8]

Most people I forgive because I wasn't paying attention and let them do me in my absent mind. I don't have time or resources to cover my back all the time. My lack of due diligence was my downfall not so much their their skill as the lack of mine.

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:39 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I always have felt that forgiving was something you earned. To just forgive, just like that, isn't that empty? I don't think you can honestly forgive, when you just 'do it'. I just feel it's not being honest with yourself. 

That is what I have always thought. Why should someone, after being harmed, be obligated to 'forgive'? Shouldn't the harmer be the one to be obligated to make things right? I think you brougth up some awesome points here. Definitely food for thought for this thread. (((Hugs)))

Make things right? That's a bit ambiguous. Your trust was betrayed, or you were badly beaten or worse. Maybe your heart was broken and you retired to a lonely bed, night after night, crying yourself to sleep, knowing just across town, the man/woman that promised eternal faith and love to you was in the arms of another. You were abandoned and did not hear from them for months or years--then they show up on your doorstep. No, they might make amends the best they can but it will never be right again, the way it was. You'll never be rid of the horrible memories, the sense of loss, of betrayal, of rejection. Reconciliation is not beyond the realm of possibility--but it's highly unlikely and things will never be what they were. Innocence, once lost, is never reclaimed.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Most people I forgive because I wasn't paying attention and let them do me in my absent mind. I don't have time or resources to cover my back all the time. My lack of due diligence was my downfall not so much their their skill as the lack of mine.

jmccr8

 I find your post  here very interesting. I'm not sure if I'm understanding this, but is their also guilt on your part ( for letting them hurt you ) that allows you to forgive easily? 

Frankly, I think you touched upon something that plays a big part on the victim and their path. I do sometimes wonder, for me and in others, that you can forgive someone if you feel there was a part you play in it. Was their a bit of negative behavior played on my part that instigated it or something. Sometimes, when there is work involved in understanding each other, ( usually stemming from the person who has done the hurt and they are definitely giving themselves over to taking responsibility for their actions ) I do feel that the one who has been hurt sometimes looks over their behavior in something as well. I do feel, that is not something that should be ignored. Yeah, I think this is something that shows how complicated the situations usually are. ( not deep though,  ) But to me, this shows on a level of non-spiritual point of view. Our feelings, as different from person to person, but also common, can be something you do not trifle with. They must be acknowledged in order to really honestly come to a conclusion. 

That is if, I'm understanding you correctly, jmccr8.  

Though, there are sometimes that the harmed behaviors, what ever the reason for how the harmer to do what they did, is no excuse for the harmer. ( I know, I am making up a word here. ) In the end, I always feel mature adults can understand how they handle things. 

Guilt in allowing others to do things for you, I wonder at that too. Does one should feel they are at fault for other's behaviors to them. There is a part of me, that doesn't think so. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Make things right? That's a bit ambiguous. Your trust was betrayed, or you were badly beaten or worse. Maybe your heart was broken and you retired to a lonely bed, night after night, crying yourself to sleep, knowing just across town, the man/woman that promised eternal faith and love to you was in the arms of another. You were abandoned and did not hear from them for months or years--then they show up on your doorstep. No, they might make amends the best they can but it will never be right again, the way it was. You'll never be rid of the horrible memories, the sense of loss, of betrayal, of rejection. Reconciliation is not beyond the realm of possibility--but it's highly unlikely and things will never be what they were. Innocence, once lost, is never reclaimed.

Oh Hammer, good call on my words there!  I was using them as a pin point to ask and hope what the answer would be, on those who feel that the victim should just 'forgive' right then and there, without having themselves being taken care of or 'made up' to by the ones who hurt them. I agree, that I feel that it is a bit ambiguous. There is also a part of me, that feels, lots of time, one cannot 'make it right', when it's something that is not going to be the same, or it left a mark, or scar, or a change in life and feelings. ( I often think, despite the damage done, the ones who hurt should still 'try' to work out what they have done )

Your point often brings me to reflect on those I hear or see or observe who 'forgive' the murderer of their loved ones. Yes, usually it's those from religious backgrounds. How can they do that? I know they loved their lost relatives, but it's like they are excusing the murderers for their behavior. I remember the trial of Jeffrey Dahmer, and the loved ones of his victims running to him screaming in anger and grief, and I could tell they want to tear him apart. To me, that's honest in their feelings. I'm not saying they should tear him apart, that they are honest on how they feel about him. I would react the same way. I would also condemn the soul who shouldn't have done what they did. I think that is the closer someone should have in that situation. I feel at peace in thinking, that I would feel that there is no considering that those who have done such things, to be deserving of a good life and be at peace, because of what they've done. I think it's as simple as that. 

I agree also, that when things have been done to those, and they have to be back to a position in life that seemed that things haven't changed, but it's hard to because of the differences, one really cannot go on like nothing has happened. A relationship, a marriage, that went through infidelity and continues after acknowledging it, is not the same. ( it always bothers me when those who did the cheating complains to the partner of 'bringing it up again' when they do. That's the thing, the cheater should have it brought it up to them again, because one they are still the one that caused it knowingly, and two, they are not being understanding and giving to the one they cheated to. ) 

Now granted, when a child has been returned to their biological parents after an abduction, ( I am thinking of the latest news of the 18 year old girl returned to her original parents ) it's not the biological parents fault here, far from it, but the love and everything that comes with raising their child, they really cannot do that to the returned child, mostly so when that child is now an adult. I'm thinking, what does one do, after all the celebrating is done? It's really very awkward.

I wonder, if one is really trying to make things right, do they realize they really cannot? How does one who genuinely wants to correct what they did wrong, actually go about doing it. Or, should they live with their guilt and keep going on knowing the ones they hurt will continue to have no trust and respect for you? 

Which now makes me wonder, as I reflect on this. Do some here feel that the straight out 'forgiving' that their belief tells them to do, make them think that it erases all the pain and the work they know that comes from situations like this? Is it easier to just 'forgive' like they are told to do in their spiritual backgrounds, because it sidesteps all the work and problems that come with situations like these? 

If that is the case, then in my feeling, it's a bandaid that gets left over an unclean cut that will eventually get infected still. 

Hammer, I think it's great you brought up those points.  

[jmccr8]

Hi Stubbly,

 I don't have a lot of people that can affect my life within my social circle in a negative way since I moved here about 9 years ago. I came here to be with my daughter and grand-daughter so they are my main focus at this time. I have been single for 30 years because of my work and some other interests that I had, so I really haven't been hurt in an emotional sense, nor have I ever considered myself a victim. For the most part what has occurred would be more of an inconvenience or that I may have been compromised in some way which is why I said that it was in part that I was not paying attention to them and allowed some situations to occur. I don't blame myself, I'm a busy person and at times too focused on my work to pay attention to everything that is going on with other people. And for some people it is an opportune time to work a situation to their advantage.

 In the past I have been told that I am unemotional, which is not completely true as I keep much to myself, for the most part people see me smiling all the time. I don't express emotion openly as I find that some people are far too dramatic to often and seem eager to sow discontent if they think that they can play on your emotional side to manipulate for their own advantage. I save my angry face for only the most deserving and not many see it and I don't lose my temper but do speak in an intimidating way with a low voice.

 If someone did compromise me in some way they have lost a resource which extends beyond just me so in fact they lose more than they gain. That doesn't mean that amends cannot be made but they would really have to make an impression though it is not likely that they would ever have the same benefits they once enjoyed. I understand that each of us has very different lives so one person's way of developing and coping with situations is going to perceive things according to their experiences so how I deal with things will not work for someone else.

jmccr8

[Stubbly_Dooright]

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Stubbly,

 I don't have a lot of people that can affect my life within my social circle in a negative way since I moved here about 9 years ago. I came here to be with my daughter and grand-daughter so they are my main focus at this time. I have been single for 30 years because of my work and some other interests that I had, so I really haven't been hurt in an emotional sense, nor have I ever considered myself a victim. For the most part what has occurred would be more of an inconvenience or that I may have been compromised in some way which is why I said that it was in part that I was not paying attention to them and allowed some situations to occur. I don't blame myself, I'm a busy person and at times too focused on my work to pay attention to everything that is going on with other people. And for some people it is an opportune time to work a situation to their advantage.

Ahhhhhh,      

Thank you for your input and your telling us a bit of your life. I see how it makes a contribution to how you see your reactions and your life. ( Always good to see the different point of views and find them very enlightening and educational. ) And I may not react to things like you do, but I can understand it.  

This is why this thread was started, to see the different point of views not just on the two sided spiritual/non-believing outlook, but in the many different individual point of views within both sides. I think that makes a big difference. That's why also, I wanted this thread to look at how it's no easy answer or easy of a task to tell someone else, to just, 'forgive', when there are too many variables to do so. 

And the usual variables, like day to day relationships, personal relationships, and other situations in life, I think make that big difference in this. IN which, I thank you again, for your input. 

Quote

 In the past I have been told that I am unemotional, which is not completely true as I keep much to myself, for the most part people see me smiling all the time. I don't express emotion openly as I find that some people are far too dramatic to often and seem eager to sow discontent if they think that they can play on your emotional side to manipulate for their own advantage. I save my angry face for only the most deserving and not many see it and I don't lose my temper but do speak in an intimidating way with a low voice.

 

You sound like some male individuals in my life, ( who I love very much ) and we can't always tell someone how to react, and you can't always jump to conclusions in how someone reacts means how they are inside. I'm glad you mention this. There is a part of me, that keeps a lot inside, ( so I can reflect on it, before I behave contrary on which I should behave in the end ) and though I'll have a calm and pleasant way of dealing with people, I can be very different inside. I can, and have in the past, instantly feel frustrations, anger, and rage, at the drop of a hat. I don't get rid of it, I reflect on it, imagine it in a scenario in my head, and let it flow elswhere. Even though I can do that, and control my behavior in more of a better way, that doesn't mean I'm excusing the behavior that caused me to feel my initial feelings. 

I agree, some people are too dramatic, and sometimes other's behaviors can be very draining. I really think we all need to step back and look into the eyes of people, to get a feel of how they really feel, before one jumps to conclusions by the reactions or the lack of reactions. 

If anything, I think what I have read from your posts, ( I hope I'm understanding it ) is that one should not get a quick understanding by someone else's reactions. I have learned that from those who are like you. And I have found them to be just as feeling, and in some cases, even more thoughtful than those who react quickly. 

Quote

If someone did compromise me in some way they have lost a resource which extends beyond just me so in fact they lose more than they gain. That doesn't mean that amends cannot be made but they would really have to make an impression though it is not likely that they would ever have the same benefits they once enjoyed. I understand that each of us has very different lives so one person's way of developing and coping with situations is going to perceive things according to their experiences so how I deal with things will not work for someone else.

jmccr8

I feel exactly how I would think this would be so. It's showing how behaviors to have various effects, ( that are understandable ) and that each of us should learn from them, so to not just not do it again, but if they have done that, they have to deal with the consequences of it and not run away from it. 

If something has changed due to something negative behaviors of one to another, you cannot hide the fact, it's changed. That is something those involve have to live with. Hiding from it, seems fake to me. I don't think there is anything to gain, from instant proclaimation of how you should treat someone. Because a lie over a truth, the truth will come out. 

Again, if I misunderstand you, I am sorry. 

I do love your post, ...........  

[+Sherapy]

On 1/24/2017 at 7:05 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I see a point here, that I think is a good point. I like your last line. Letting things go in the moment, for the sake of what is going on at the moment. Wasn't something like this mentioned a couple of times in this thread? ( And possibly for good reasons. ) Having to  'temporary forgive' to continue dealing with life at the moment? I do see sometimes, that certain situations call for an understanding for each other, to continue to complete a path that has a more strong goal, then past situations that would get in the way. But, I do feel, that it's not completely passed off. I'm sure, it's something that should be dealt with and used to remind, that one cannot still hurt and still hurt in the future, when the goal in the moment as been reached. 

I think, one who has to partner with others, who they have harmed in the past, must realize, that the relationship they have at the temporary moment is not best for them, but they have to realize it is their doing and they have to make the best of it at the time. 

There is a moment in my past that comes up as an example. When I worked at one place down south, and one time one of my co-workers came in to work, but was already having a bad day. Yes, she was miserable. Now, I , want to help, at least console. So, before I could ever come out with some form of consoling her, she came right out and said, she couldn't deal with 'me' at the moment. That p***ed me off. I didn't let her know it, ( maybe though my eyes, who knows ) My thinking was, I'm always an excitable person, and I like to keep people goofy, if at least feeling pretty positive. Apparently, I'm too much for her. ( here's the thing, does it ever occur to some people, that they are too much for me, but I deal better with it? ) Well anyways, she ended up quitting a little later after that, (months probably). A year or so later, she came back. Despite the fact, I wanted to let her know that I will not like to be around her, so she can 'tolerate' me, I decided to just keep up the work relationship. We have even had nice conversations. I figured, it's for the best. I know one thing, I have had wonderful fun times with the rest of the crew there. I never ever felt having fun outside of work with her. I guess, in the end, she became someone I 'tolerated'. I just didn't want to make things worse, by laying it out on her during the times we worked together. 

In the end, I ended up leaving, because my family moved. What's the point of leaving with such a burden and chaotic experience to hand over. What is she doing today? Don't care. The others, on my social media pages, and love seeing and hearing about their lives. At least, I didn't give such a crazy time to all of them, because of one person and a temporary situation at the time. Forgive her? I honestly cannot. What she said, despite her misery, was uncalled for. Spoke to me, how she sees me at the time. Fine, she got it back, al bait, subtlety. 

Do I regret the 'lost' relationship? No. Didn't sound like she would prefer one with me. Do I regret not being honest with her? No. It was what needed to be done for the moment. Dishonesty toward her? More than likely. I just feel, there are some things, big or small, that cannot be excused. But I still feel, one has to pick and chose, if bringing it out in the moment and seeing if there is forgiveness, when that should be done or not. To me, I feel, it's honest for myself, to have followed the path I have. It allowed me to be more alert to how others perceive me later on. 

It sounds like to me you set a boundary, one that said regardless of the pain she was in she was not entitled to harm you. You made a wise choice, in that moment when she lashed out at you, demonstrated she could not regulate her emotions as a mature adult  she ended any oppourtunity to have a friendship with you. You have nothing to forgive, she chose a path with you that ended your relationship. You did what any mature adult would do no matter what you treated her with human dignity, sadly, she did not extend you the same courtesy and she liost out on a  friend. We need to set boundaries more now with this tskewed idea of forgiveness that has made it okay to act any ole way, we teach others how to treat us by what we do and do not allow. You deserve respect, period. And you were right in ending the friendship.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Sherapy

[WoIverine]

What's interesting to me, is how not forgiving someone (or attaining some form of resolution) could affect a slighted person in various ways, mentally, and even physically.

I choose to forgive, in order to be forgiven. That doesn't mean it's always easy though, sometimes it takes a massive amount of mental and spiritual effort to let something go.

Edited June 5, 2017 by WoIverine

[Podo]

Forgive, but never forget. The two things need not be mutually exclusive. If someone has betrayed you once, they will do it again.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! My 'Forgiveness' thread has come back alive again!!!  

Ok, onto new posts.  

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

It sounds like to me you set a boundary, one that said regardless of the pain she was in she was not entitled to harm you. You made a wise choice, in that moment when she lashed out at you, demonstrated she could not regulate her emotions as a mature adult  she ended any oppourtunity to have a friendship with you. You have nothing to forgive, she chose a path with you that ended your relationship. You did what any mature adult would do no matter what you treated her with human dignity, sadly, she did not extend you the same courtesy and she liost out on a  friend. We need to set boundaries more now with this tskewed idea of forgiveness that has made it okay to act any ole way, we teach others how to treat us by what we do and do not allow. You deserve respect, period. And you were right in ending the friendship.

Thank you, Sheri.   This means a lot to me. I have also wondered, if the true person came out of that co-worker during that one time. The fact, she couldn't put up with me during that time. So, she has been putting up with me all of the other times? Kind of judgmentally insulting, the way I see it. I have had good friends and wonderful co-workers, on rough days, say they appreciate my intentions and they always enjoy me for being me, but that they feel awful that particular time, and they need time alone. That I understand. They are still being thoughtful. I try to be that way, during my 'bad' moments.  I think it's times, when someone is not having a good day, that shows their true colors, good or bad. I still feel, give them understanding, but one sees how one is normally looked upon during these times. I think we all need to see that. 

And I thank you for mentioning the good choice of boundaries, Sheri. And, I think we need them. We all have our limits, and trying to go beyond them, is going to exhaust the psyche. I sometimes see some feel we have to go beyond them, and not realizing the damages that this causes. 

2 hours ago, WoIverine said:

What's interesting to me, is how not forgiving someone (or attaining some form of resolution) could affect a slighted person in various ways, mentally, and even physically.

I thank you for your contribution to this thread.  

Now, I wonder, if you could give examples how it effects a slighted person. I am curious. 

I actually feel, it's a case by case situation. Some who don't forgive, feel honest about themselves and at peace. Others, well, I think there's more to it, and just forgiving someone is not going to help. 

Quote

I choose to forgive, in order to be forgiven. That doesn't mean it's always easy though, sometimes it takes a massive amount of mental and spiritual effort to let something go.

Here's what gets me. Having it be tough to do this, seems to not be something for the hurt to have to go through. Why should they? Why should it be rough, when they already have been through too much? That should be on the one who has hurt. 

I cannot see forgiveness as an act, but an earned feeling. I don't think you can choose to forgive, like you can choose to feel. 

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

1 hour ago, Podo said:

Forgive, but never forget. The two things need not be mutually exclusive. If someone has betrayed you once, they will do it again.

I always think, that tends to be the pattern. I do believe, not all of the time. But, I think you're right. Most of the time, it does happen that way. 

There have been some, and some on here, who feel it's the hurt who should forgive for themselves. I can't see that. Wouldn't that allow someone to lower themselves and be vulnerable to those who hurt them? 

I think your post makes a good point.   Thank you. 

 

[WoIverine]

46 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I thank you for your contribution to this thread.  

Now, I wonder, if you could give examples how it effects a slighted person. I am curious.

 

I think the long term effects of not moving on from a situation could potentially be damaging in some forms, prolonged stress being of primary concern, it's very unhealthy.

Some may choose to forgive and forget, others may internalize, or even obsess on whatever it was that happened.

I personally choose to forgive, due to the good example that was set for me a couple of thousand years ago. That said, it's not easy, I get angry just like everyone else. It's a constant battle, knowing that I should work to improve upon myself, but it's worth it. It's kind of like training the body, except it's more like exercise for the spirit. It does make me feel better, there's a happiness, and a peace to it that's just so hard to describe.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by WoIverine

[Podo]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I always think, that tends to be the pattern. I do believe, not all of the time. But, I think you're right. Most of the time, it does happen that way. 

There have been some, and some on here, who feel it's the hurt who should forgive for themselves. I can't see that. Wouldn't that allow someone to lower themselves and be vulnerable to those who hurt them? 

I think your post makes a good point.   Thank you. 

 

Forgiving for yourself is silly, because it doesn't factor in the reality that someone else's actions have wronged you. In modern society, there is a lot of people who seem to be of the belief that nothing anyone else does can affect you unless you let it. That's all nonsense. It's a cute idea, but it ignores that sometimes, people are just d**** and only out for themselves. Conversely, even if someone didn't wrong you on purpose, it means that the person is too clueless to recognize that what they did was a bad idea. In either case, ignoring that they are the type of person to do such an action is naivete at best and irresponsible at worst. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

5 hours ago, WoIverine said:

I think the long term effects of not moving on from a situation could potentially be damaging in some forms, prolonged stress being of primary concern, it's very unhealthy.

And I would agree with that. Frankly, I would feel that someone who 'forgives' because they feel that is how they are moving on, maybe not be doing just that. What if you are not honestly forgiven them? What if dealing with the person makes you uncomfortable, because of what they did. If one is sure how they feel, they will do what is needed, like being away from the person, or working on healing themselves. I really thinking not forgiving a person is not going to keep someone in the past. It just honestly of the situation and the attitude toward the person responsible. If it's indeed a forced forgiveness. The real feelings is what is going to effect the slighted. Knowing they really don't have honest forgiven feelings toward the other person. Being honest with one's self about their lack of forgiveness to another, is actually releasing the truth and gives a person a place to move on in an honest way. That's how I see it. 

Quote

Some may choose to forgive and forget, others may internalize, or even obsess on whatever it was that happened.

Well, like I said, it's case by case. Does forced forgiveness actually keep someone from doing each of these things? If one is obsessing about it, that means they haven't honestly dealt with it. 

Quote

I personally choose to forgive, due to the good example that was set for me a couple of thousand years ago.

That's why I wanted religious and non-religious examples here. I wanted to see the difference and see if there is a ratio of it working on each side of the fence here. Though, as a secular raised individual, I'm not sure what example you're talking about. I am curious.  

Quote

That said, it's not easy, I get angry just like everyone else. It's a constant battle, knowing that I should work to improve upon myself, but it's worth it. It's kind of like training the body, except it's more like exercise for the spirit. It does make me feel better, there's a happiness, and a peace to it that's just so hard to describe.

  I find that interesting in an inspiring way. I'm glad that is happening for you.   I actually, don't want to knock that. 

I personally think, like exercising is for our bodies, education and puzzles for our brain, (and religion and spirituality for those for their spirits) I think we also need to work on ourselves all the time. Whether we're in pain or not. I do this, just by reflecting and keeping in check various things. I forgive, if there is a good reason. Just today, while waiting eons for something and getting pretty miffed, the reason I was given for the wait was an emergency for someone else. I immediately apologized, told them nothing for them to apologize, and I hoped the other person was going to be ok. (I'm told yes, *whew* )

Having to go through pain from someone else, and just be expected to forgive them, is not honest for me. I can't forgive someone who has no excuse to be forgiven. I can feel unforgiving toward someone and still deal and manage with life in peace. 

3 hours ago, Podo said:

Forgiving for yourself is silly, because it doesn't factor in the reality that someone else's actions have wronged you. In modern society, there is a lot of people who seem to be of the belief that nothing anyone else does can affect you unless you let it. That's all nonsense. It's a cute idea, but it ignores that sometimes, people are just d**** and only out for themselves. Conversely, even if someone didn't wrong you on purpose, it means that the person is too clueless to recognize that what they did was a bad idea. In either case, ignoring that they are the type of person to do such an action is naivete at best and irresponsible at worst. 

Thank you! Exactly my feelings. Great way of explaining it. I bet these same people who say how you let it affect you, would feel differently if it's turned around on them. 

Plus, that doesn't keep them from looking less than humanize people, does it? 

 

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, WoIverine said:

What's interesting to me, is how not forgiving someone (or attaining some form of resolution) could affect a slighted person in various ways, mentally, and even physically.

I choose to forgive, in order to be forgiven. That doesn't mean it's always easy though, sometimes it takes a massive amount of mental and spiritual effort to let something go.

If indeed it is bothering the person to the degree they obsess about it then yes, you have a point. But, for me, forgiveness just means I am moving on, basically letting go of the need for the other person to do something for closure. I have moved on many times and in some cases never forgiven the person and never will. And, I don't pressure myself either I respect my healing process, however long it takes or which direction it lands on. I find that when I honor my emotions that surface and validate them moving on just seems to the next natural step, it is not a difficult process . As far as others, if I have done something harmful and it comes to my attention, I will do whatever I can to make it right, including not repeating the action. 

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Podo said:

Forgiving for yourself is silly, because it doesn't factor in the reality that someone else's actions have wronged you. In modern society, there is a lot of people who seem to be of the belief that nothing anyone else does can affect you unless you let it. That's all nonsense. It's a cute idea, but it ignores that sometimes, people are just d**** and only out for themselves. Conversely, even if someone didn't wrong you on purpose, it means that the person is too clueless to recognize that what they did was a bad idea. In either case, ignoring that they are the type of person to do such an action is naivete at best and irresponsible at worst. 

No it is actual reality, if you enable it to be.

My feelings are generated by myself, in my own mind. Thus they are not the consequence of ANYONE else's actions, but only of my reaction to them.

All feelings are constructs of the mind, and we learn how to construct them, thus we can chose to construct any response we like to any action by another person.   For example; two extremes I might have mentioned.

One set of friends of mine had their son brutally murdered. They were angry, grief stricken, and totally unable to forgive his killer.  It took over their lives, and made them different, much less happy and functional  people.

Another couple i know also lost their daughter to a person who raped and killed her. They were able to completely forgive her killer They experienced far less anger, grief, pain and suffering, and were thus able to make more of their life together, to be happier and better psychologically adjusted  The differences in the two couples over time was incredible, yet both had the same experiences The difference was in how they chose to respond. 

its a bit easier for me because i was brought up from infancy to accept responsibility for my own thoughts and behaviors and to learn how to make constructive creative choices  rather than destructive ones Ie rather than feel anger or grief, turn that into energy for productive purposes. I was probably 2 or 3 the first time my parents told me that  i could never claim someone else had "hurt my feelings" or made me angry, or made me sad, because only i could generate those feelings within me. No one else had that power over my mind.  .

 Forgiveness is ONLY for the benefit of the hurt person. It (true forgiveness )  removes the hurt and anger, hate,jealousy grief etc.

 if you want to tell the person who hurt you that they are forgiven, do so, but it is not about them, but about your own mental and physical health.    it will lower YOUR blood pressure, stress levels, anxieties, fears, worries etc. and help you heal, 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

If indeed it is bothering the person to the degree they obsess about it then yes, you have a point. But, for me, forgiveness just means I am moving on, basically letting go of the need for the other person to do something for closure. I have moved on many times and in some cases never forgiven the person and never will. And, I don't pressure myself either I respect my healing process, however long it takes or which direction it lands on. I find that when I honor my emotions that surface and validate them moving on just seems to the next natural step, it is not a difficult process . As far as others, if I have done something harmful and it comes to my attention, I will do whatever I can to make it right, including not repeating the action. 

I want to thank you, Sheri, for putting into words, what I couldn't get in my head when I wrote my response to Wolverine. Though, I want to commend Wolverine for his observations and considerations into that.  And, I would think one would notice some being obsessed with something that was done to them. Frankly, there will be those who will obsess with something. I'm not an expert, so this is my own experienced observation, (and I could be wrong), I think the hurt, the hurtful, or anyone with something that has happened for what ever reason, could obsess with it. And I think for many reasons. Someone could obsess saying something to someone else, that might seem weird, for that matter. And I would think, that it's the person there and that reflecting how they see things, how they do things, and how they react and look at it, could be something that would make a difference in how they live peacefully or not. 

When it comes to how they were treated by someone else, I don't think that would be on them to how they see themselves. Unless, they blame themselves for it, and then I would think they need the help to see it wasn't. (And other such professional help that might help them deal with that.) But, if the point is that someone will obsess with something done to them and the person who did it to them, because they didn't forgive them, I don't believe that. As you pointed out Sheri, one can not forgive, and move on. Just as I thought, and done for myself, and shown. Well, you said it better, I think.  

I would think, if someone just blindly forgives someone, and they are not really feelings that, I wouldn't be surprised if they become obsesses with that, because of the unsure feelings they have of the other. I think it just might become combative within themselves. I personally think, that one gets obsesses with it, because they didn't do something for themselves to help themselves heal. If the one who hurts, goes out of their way, to help them heal, great. But, one doesn't need to 'forgive' the other, to help themselves heal. I think that is readily shown for me. 

 Sheri. 

 

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I want to thank you, Sheri, for putting into words, what I couldn't get in my head when I wrote my response to Wolverine. Though, I want to commend Wolverine for his observations and considerations into that.  And, I would think one would notice some being obsessed with something that was done to them. Frankly, there will be those who will obsess with something. I'm not an expert, so this is my own experienced observation, (and I could be wrong), I think the hurt, the hurtful, or anyone with something that has happened for what ever reason, could obsess with it. And I think for many reasons. Someone could obsess saying something to someone else, that might seem weird, for that matter. And I would think, that it's the person there and that reflecting how they see things, how they do things, and how they react and look at it, could be something that would make a difference in how they live peacefully or not. 

When it comes to how they were treated by someone else, I don't think that would be on them to how they see themselves. Unless, they blame themselves for it, and then I would think they need the help to see it wasn't. (And other such professional help that might help them deal with that.) But, if the point is that someone will obsess with something done to them and the person who did it to them, because they didn't forgive them, I don't believe that. As you pointed out Sheri, one can not forgive, and move on. Just as I thought, and done for myself, and shown. Well, you said it better, I think.  

I would think, if someone just blindly forgives someone, and they are not really feelings that, I wouldn't be surprised if they become obsesses with that, because of the unsure feelings they have of the other. I think it just might become combative within themselves. I personally think, that one gets obsesses with it, because they didn't do something for themselves to help themselves heal. If the one who hurts, goes out of their way, to help them heal, great. But, one doesn't need to 'forgive' the other, to help themselves heal. I think that is readily shown for me. 

 Sheri. 

 

Indeed, I would not allow myself to be harangued or "told" I need to forgive. Granted, I have had countless conversations on the subject of forgiveness with my therapist and think I have a good understanding of it. 

For example: The Helen horror show I lived through there will not be any forgiveness on my part to her memory, she was simply an awful person, the outrage and anger I once felt has been routed into something positive and productive. The trauma I endured has been worked through and I have moved on. I just didn't do it by making her actions okay, in fact, they would never be exceptable in any context. I have learned another way to forgiveness. There are many ways, there is not a one size fits all and the standard religious one serves as an outline, of course in and of itself there is value in emotional regulation, but to force myself  to forgive, thinking it will benefit me would not work for my best interests. I found a way that does. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

16 hours ago, Podo said:

Forgiving for yourself is silly, because it doesn't factor in the reality that someone else's actions have wronged you. In modern society, there is a lot of people who seem to be of the belief that nothing anyone else does can affect you unless you let it. That's all nonsense. It's a cute idea, but it ignores that sometimes, people are just d**** and only out for themselves. Conversely, even if someone didn't wrong you on purpose, it means that the person is too clueless to recognize that what they did was a bad idea. In either case, ignoring that they are the type of person to do such an action is naivete at best and irresponsible at worst. 

I agree with this, emotional soundness includes acknowledging the emotions you have and setting boundaries where and you think appropriate. I have a problem with the idea that it isn't okay to set boundaries. I would agree this is naïveté at the very least. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Indeed, I would not allow myself to be harangued or "told" I need to forgive. Granted, I have had countless conversations on the subject of forgiveness with my therapist and think I have a good understanding of it. 

I would, myself, feel you would be the go to on this subject.   (if you don't mind, that is)

Quote

For example: The Helen horror show I lived through there will not be any forgiveness on my part to her memory, she was simply an awful person, the outrage and anger I once felt has been routed into something positive and productive. The trauma I endured has been worked through and I have moved on. I just didn't do it by making her actions okay, in fact, they would never be in any context. I have learned another way to forgiveness. There are many ways, there is not a one size fits all and the standard religious one serves as an outline, of course in and of itself there is value in emotional regulation, but to force yourself to forgive thinking it will benefit you is not it. 

Exactly.   In which, why I started this thread. It's something, that I think needs exploring and seeing the many different ways forgiveness is seen, and how it does work, or how really doesn't work. I think there is a difference in actual forgiveness and in actual healing, and the two don't always go hand in hand. As I feel, that there's success stories in both religious and non-religious examples, and also quite the opposite. I really don't understand, how some feel the generalized template, 'you must forgive them' is going to help the many different people and the many different cases. I don't get it, when I have seen that it really doesn't, and not even most of the time.  

 

In another sense, of reflecting on this, I do feel, that like anyone a victim of assault, or someone who is an addict, and other such things, one is for life. One just has to deal with it in a healthy manner, so they don't let it take over their life. (and yes, this is where professional help comes in) I don't think forgiveness in others or in  one's self, is going to take that away and stop you being the individual who is burdened with that. No matter what some will say, in my opinion, nobody can say they stop being an addict. You're still an addict, you are just recovering and overcoming it. Instant forgiveness isn't going to take away what happens to you. It stays there always. 

I think some who say that those who just 'forgave' need to explain how they did that. And did they really? What are they doing now? 

[+Sherapy]

16 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I would, myself, feel you would be the go to on this subject.   (if you don't mind, that is)

Exactly.   In which, why I started this thread. It's something, that I think needs exploring and seeing the many different ways forgiveness is seen, and how it does work, or how really doesn't work. I think there is a difference in actual forgiveness and in actual healing, and the two don't always go hand in hand. As I feel, that there's success stories in both religious and non-religious examples, and also quite the opposite. I really don't understand, how some feel the generalized template, 'you must forgive them' is going to help the many different people and the many different cases. I don't get it, when I have seen that it really doesn't, and not even most of the time.  

 

In another sense, of reflecting on this, I do feel, that like anyone a victim of assault, or someone who is an addict, and other such things, one is for life. One just has to deal with it in a healthy manner, so they don't let it take over their life. (and yes, this is where professional help comes in) I don't think forgiveness in others or in  one's self, is going to take that away and stop you being the individual who is burdened with that. No matter what some will say, in my opinion, nobody can say they stop being an addict. You're still an addict, you are just recovering and overcoming it. Instant forgiveness isn't going to take away what happens to you. It stays there always. 

I think some who say that those who just 'forgave' need to explain how they did that. And did they really? What are they doing now? 

I think emotional health is integral to ones well being, but I just don't think it comes from denying your feelings, or forcing yourself to forgive, or not setting boundaries where appropriate. I find some people and somethings are easy to move past, I think in the course of a life there maybe things that others do rashly and without regard for others that are not forgivable, but one eventually moves on in their way as a natural consequent of healing. You bring in an excellent point, it is important to make a distinction between the natural process of healing and the action of forgiveness--in emotional soundness there is the process of healing that just happens, especially, if we grace ourselves the space and time to let the healing process to do its thing whatever it takes, often there is not any act of forgiveness involved. And, one doesn't have to forgive anything to move on and let go, and some things we would not forgive as they are not okay and this is called setting boundaries, but it doesn't mean we are stressed about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Sherapy