Space Commander Travis Posted May 22, 2016 #126 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Really perhaps the United States is too big to be adequately represented by one federal administration and one overall Leader who is the image of the country that the entire world sees. Perhaps it might not be altogether unthinkable to wonder if there might be advantages in breaking it down into more manageable units, which would have the inestimable advantage of the President no longer being the de facto ruler of the World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 22, 2016 #127 Share Posted May 22, 2016 No, no. Thats you again trying to project the antithesis of your own position unto me. A trick which you serve yourself of on countless occasions. You seem to only be able to think in extremes. Its either white, or its black. You dont have a second gear, do you. Trying to indicate there are more factors at play, leading up to the present situation, besides 'Evil Islam'.. does not equate relieving Islam from all blame. And you are well aware of this, you are well aware I do underwrite there are some real issues within the Islamic congregation. But ofcourse, everyone that doesnt confirm your 'Islam = Anti Christ' position is pushed into the Islam apologizer corner; blaming everything on the West, and the USA specifically. Mr. Black & White Strikes Again. You spend FAR more time and effort consistently defending Islam while explaining the "factors at play" that conveniently are all created by the West. I've yet to see you advocate for any real change among the faithful who are NOT trying to kill and cause political mayhem. The same old - NOT ALL MUSLIMS - mantra is employed while banging the drum about the policies of the US primarily. There is certainly room to discuss these differences calmly but when you toss out the Islam = Anti Christ as some kind of joke I'd ask you to actually READ 1st John 2:22"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." You have stated here that you are not a Muslim but you seem quite conversant with the beliefs of the faith. This is accurate, is it not? If it is then perhaps you can explain how Muslims would react to one of their own stating that Jesus was the Son of God, the Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted May 22, 2016 #128 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) Yet again, what does bringing the argument back to the menace of Islam have to do with the topic of the thread? Edited May 22, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted May 22, 2016 #129 Share Posted May 22, 2016 (edited) If you can't dazzle them with dexterity. Baffle them with bull shot. What would you expect? That Americans would just lay down and say.. "Yeah, we suck...". Isn't going to happen. I'd expect British to stand up for their country if they were told their country was bollox. (did I spell bollox right?) You are right about the UK, and there are a lot of people over here who are swayed to vote "Out" in the upcoming Euro referendum purely because they see Britain as somehow "better" than the rest of Europe. Nationalists exist everywhere. But I don't think the OP, or most of the people posting in this thread, is saying "America is bollox". What the article and many people might be saying is that perhaps more Americans have a bias towards how "great" they consider their country than the citizens of many other nations do. In this sense America tends towards ultra-nationalism, probably to the detriment of both it's society and it's relationship with many other nations. Edited May 22, 2016 by Leonardo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 22, 2016 #130 Share Posted May 22, 2016 You spend FAR more time and effort consistently defending Islam while explaining the "factors at play" that conveniently are all created by the West. I've yet to see you advocate for any real change among the faithful who are NOT trying to kill and cause political mayhem. The same old - NOT ALL MUSLIMS - mantra is employed while banging the drum about the policies of the US primarily. There is certainly room to discuss these differences calmly but when you toss out the Islam = Anti Christ as some kind of joke I'd ask you to actually READ 1st John 2:22 "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." You have stated here that you are not a Muslim but you seem quite conversant with the beliefs of the faith. This is accurate, is it not? If it is then perhaps you can explain how Muslims would react to one of their own stating that Jesus was the Son of God, the Father. Ah yes, there we go again. Indeed, and here you supply us with yet another example of your qaint logic; for who fits that very definition to a tee? Judaism, which in stark contradiction to Islam, completely and explicitly denounces Yeshua as the Christ, as a Messiah. Does this bother you one bit though..? Ab so lutely not. Evenmore; you rigorously defend every and any thing the mondaine political entity known as the State of Israel does. Even, even if this includes murdering occupied civilians, occupied children in the hundreds, thousands (under another fine ethical sense of logic: 'Israel is innocent because these children were used as human shields'). What a strange Christian you are, cheering on one of the most advanced and brutal armies suppressing / opressing / dehumanizing a civilian population for decades; supporting a religion which openly denounces Christ over one that venerates him as a Messiah, G*ds Messenger (even more so than Muhammad himself). Enter the world of a religious zealot; where balance, logic and rational are excessively scarce commodities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranormal Panther Posted May 22, 2016 #131 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Compared to the rest of the world Americans are... not really much different than any other first world nation. A few angels and a few devils mixed in with a lot of normal everyday people just trying to get by, like everyone else. You and Otto are right, as we have the best and the worst that humanity has to offer. We're like a microcosm of the planet in many ways. You can't even define us by regions because no regions are as monolithic as conventional wisdom assumes. It all comes down to the individual, and individuals can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 23, 2016 #132 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Ah yes, there we go again. Indeed, and here you supply us with yet another example of your qaint logic; for who fits that very definition to a tee? Judaism, which in stark contradiction to Islam, completely and explicitly denounces Yeshua as the Christ, as a Messiah. Does this bother you one bit though..? Ab so lutely not. Evenmore; you rigorously defend every and any thing the mondaine political entity known as the State of Israel does. Even, even if this includes murdering occupied civilians, occupied children in the hundreds, thousands (under another fine ethical sense of logic: 'Israel is innocent because these children were used as human shields'). What a strange Christian you are, cheering on one of the most advanced and brutal armies suppressing / opressing / dehumanizing a civilian population for decades; supporting a religion which openly denounces Christ over one that venerates him as a Messiah, G*ds Messenger (even more so than Muhammad himself). Enter the world of a religious zealot; where balance, logic and rational are excessively scarce commodities. When Jews begin quoting the Talmud while they make war on all non Jews then I will accept that you have a point. For the record, ANYONE who denies the Father and Son is considered to be "antichrist". Yes, Jews fit the description as well. BTW - you mentioned that since you live in the region, you understand that the populace are not as against fundamental Islamists and that I am poorly informed. You might ask the Austrians about this -http://www.voanews.com/content/austria-presidential-elections/3340864.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted May 23, 2016 #133 Share Posted May 23, 2016 What if countries from the Middle East were routinely bombing American cities and making changes in the US government convenient to their needs? Would that be okay, or is it wrong because they're Muslims? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranormal Panther Posted May 24, 2016 #134 Share Posted May 24, 2016 On May 23, 2016 at 2:41 AM, Yamato said: What if countries from the Middle East were routinely bombing American cities and making changes in the US government convenient to their needs? Would that be okay, or is it wrong because they're Muslims? That's a good point. That's why we should mind our own business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 25, 2016 #135 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) On 23-5-2016 at 8:13 AM, and then said: When Jews begin quoting the Talmud while they make war on all non Jews then I will accept that you have a point. For the record, ANYONE who denies the Father and Son is considered to be "antichrist". Yes, Jews fit the description as well. BTW - you mentioned that since you live in the region, you understand that the populace are not as against fundamental Islamists and that I am poorly informed. You might ask the Austrians about this -http://www.voanews.com/content/austria-presidential-elections/3340864.html Ok, so for rational human beings; Jews quoting the Talmud while they make war on all non Jews has absolutely nothing to do with the definition you just used against Islam. Yours is the rationalisation of an inherently skewed, illogical position.. and I think you know it very well. Rest assured, there are ample 'Jews' whom 'make war on non Jews' based on the Talmud. Might want to read up on the concept of the Goy, and how (some of) this creed look unto such 'people'. Oh they dont blow themselves up or commit other terrorist acts like their Lehi Group brethren did back in the day, but they steal, manipulate & wage war against Goyim.. make no mistake about it. To suppose this congregation doesnt bare its fair share of extremists would be excessively naive. Lets focus some more on your interpretation of the stated definition; which effectively denotes that all who do not believe in the Trinity - although the Trinity is not mentioned - and Yeshua's position as G*d in the flesh, is the Anti Christ. You should realize only modern day Pauline Christians would not fall under that definition. All prophets, all other people of the book, including early Christians led by Yeshua's half brother James the Just, who were prosecuted and terminated with extreme prejudice by the very ruling element 'Paul / Saulus' worked with, even hunted Christians for, would be defined as being the Anti Christ. Now dont you think thats kinda strange? Pauline Christianity today seems like the quintessential Biblical narrative, but its actually all but when observing the total time line, the whole picture. Its a theological spike in the pattern, an oddity, sticking out like a sore thumb. The term 'son' was used in those times to indicate the closest student / teacher relationship; G*ds servant, diciple, spiritual son - one who has G*ds Word instilled into him; breathing it, living it. As such, the term 'son(s) of G*d' is used in the old testament as well. It was never used to indicate physical descent. Never. For you to take these Son of G*d references as proof Yeshua was G*d incarnate (ignoring the Son of Man references, ignoring the countless references of Yeshua himself being powerless unless by leave of 'The Father' / G*d etc etc) - against the position of early Christianity, against everything ever stated by any Abrahamic prophet - thus entering His own creation, being produced through the birth canal of a mortal, defecating that which he consumed via the digestive tract through the anus; needing food, sleep and clothes.. boggles the mind. Shaking all Abrahamic religious / spiritual fundaments to the very core, based on what a Pharisaic / Roman self proclaimed Apostle - who did not meet Yeshua a single milisecond in his whole (early) Christian prosecuting life - has proclaimed.. Fascinating logic to say the least. So lets do a little recap here of your general position as a 21st century Zionist Christian: -> you call those who explicitly and openly venerate Yeshua as G*ds Messiah / The Christ 'Anti Christ', yet fanatically defend those that explicitly and openly denounce Yeshua as The Christ; -> you call civilians without a military who have been militarily opressed and suppressed for all but a century 'Evil' because they react in any way they can, yet passionately defend the occupying military killing and maming hundreds of thousands of civilians, consisting of hundreds of children ('human shield, human shield! Blame the Pallies!'); -> you choose to follow a version of Christianity produced by a former fanatical early Christian hunter, a Pharisee Roman who proclaimed himself Christ's Apostle while never actually meeting Yeshua, and who was competing / in conflict with Yeshua's half brother (the first Bishop of Jerusalem and leader of early Christianity after Yeshua's leave) for leadership of this new born religion.. thereby elevating a G*d send Messiah to G*d Himself while finding no basis for this ground shaking concept anywhere in the Septuagint / pre New Testament scripture. ..Alltogether lovely. PS. " BTW - you mentioned that since you live in the region, you understand that the populace are not as against fundamental Islamists and that I am poorly informed. " If this is what you interpreted from my earlier reply; read it again. I never stated the European populace are 'not as against fundamental Islamists'. Edited May 25, 2016 by Phaeton80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 25, 2016 #136 Share Posted May 25, 2016 *sigh* Thank you for taking the time to so carefully craft a narrative about my belief - while weaving in your own biases and opinions of course. YES I do subscribe to the Pauline Gospel. True, Paul/Saul was a rabid anti Christian that never met Christ prior to his resurrection. It's a key indicator of your lack of belief in Christ that you cannot conceive Him being able to communicate with anyone AFTER he was crucified. He was dead after all, no? But the whole Gospel is based on his RESURRECTION. Meaning that he returned to life and STILL LIVES today. Being...uh... GOD, when he explains to Paul exactly what he wants from him, Paul obeys. Paul obeys for the rest of his life and eventually obeys even unto an appointment with a Roman sword. I did not create the concept of antiChrist or antiChrist spirit, John did. He said it quite clearly and it encompasses modern Islam and Judaism completely. Your focus on Jews in answer to my indictment of Islam's prophet and fundamental followers is simple misdirection. The fundamental, hard core Jew DOES hate Christians. They do not blow up buildings, rape, enslave or otherwise attempt to eradicate them from the world though. ALL of which things CAN be said of fundamental Islamists. To your last point, I believe I mentioned that point in refutation of a poll that Lightly posted which indicated that Europeans are in majority quite sanguine about the migrant issue. P80 your understanding or appreciation of my faith or intelligence means nothing to me. The fact that you appear to smirk at it impresses me only in your probable rudeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 25, 2016 #137 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, and then said: *sigh* Thank you for taking the time to so carefully craft a narrative about my belief - while weaving in your own biases and opinions of course. YES I do subscribe to the Pauline Gospel. True, Paul/Saul was a rabid anti Christian that never met Christ prior to his resurrection. It's a key indicator of your lack of belief in Christ that you cannot conceive Him being able to communicate with anyone AFTER he was crucified. He was dead after all, no? But the whole Gospel is based on his RESURRECTION. Meaning that he returned to life and STILL LIVES today. Being...uh... GOD, when he explains to Paul exactly what he wants from him, Paul obeys. Paul obeys for the rest of his life and eventually obeys even unto an appointment with a Roman sword. So me not readily believing an 'ex' rabid Anti Christian who claims to have seen Yeshua in a vision on the road to Damascus (while the first time Paul tells this story, he said he saw a bright light that told him to seek out Ana nias - not Christ - and that Ananias would give him further instruction - Ananias being directly related to Caiaphas, the high priest who sought to have the Messiah killed), teaching content based on that self proclaimed fact (obviously no one could affirm or rule out) that is wildly different than what the half brother of Yeshua (obviously someone who has known the Christ his whole life, of the highest credibility thinkable) as well as all other Abra hamic prophets have taught.. constitutes lack of belief in your mind? Fascinating. I did not create the concept of antiChrist or antiChrist spirit, John did. He said it quite clearly and it encompasses modern Islam and Judaism completely. Your focus on Jews in answer to my indictment of Islam's prophet and fundamental followers is simple misdirection. The fundamental, hard core Jew DOES hate Christians. They do not blow up buildings, rape, enslave or otherwise attempt to eradicate them from the world though. ALL of which things CAN be said of fundamental Islamists. It certainly does nbot encompass Islam, only when one wields the definition or interpretation of the word 'Son' like 21st century Christians do, instead of denoting an extremely close servant >< master, teacher >< student re lationship. As early Christians like James the Just, Christs half- brother (and appointed leader of the new faith), did. To your last point, I believe I mentioned that point in refutation of a poll that Lightly posted which indicated that Europeans are in majority quite sanguine about the migrant issue. Not jumping on the 'we fear these refugees will destroy our sh* bandwagon' does in no way equate or even imply thesame Europeans are not 'as against fundamental Islamists'. They are very much against these criminals (just as 99% of all Muslims are btw, who are the only ones fighting ISIS on the ground, who are those most murdered by ISIS), but unlike you, it seems; they are able to differentiate between different facets of a given sce nario. Unlike you, seemingly, they are not so very full of emotion (fear) they throw out all rational, all morals & ethics to subsequently treat these victims of war (we partly fomented, again) as criminals. P80 your understanding or appreciation of my faith or intelligence means nothing to me. The fact that you appear to smirk at it impresses me only in your probable rudeness. I never stated anything in regards to your intelligence. I question your logic, am fascinated by it and interested in it.. because I indeed do not understand. So maybe that says something about my intelligence. Edited May 25, 2016 by Phaeton80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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