Opus Magnus Posted May 22, 2016 #51 Share Posted May 22, 2016 One of my favorites is Baldr, how Loki betrayed him with he poisoned arrow having another one of his kin shoot him and kill him, sending him to Helheim because he didn't die in battle, but by accident and treachery. Is like Jesus, being betrayed and crucified, and going to the heart of the earth for 3 days before he was resurrected. Also, I guess Baldr is supposed to be resurrected after the final battle and bring a new earth, and spring comes back, because that is what Loki killed So, eventually i guess there is hope if Baldr gets out of Helheim, but then that makes me wonder about the afterlife. Dying and going to Valhalla, or is there a way to find Baldr in the secret chambers of Helheim, because that's what Jesus taught. The idea of dying a certain way, wedging yourself to find a secret passage through the afterlife, the straight gate and narrow path. That we must spend a time deep in the earth, or I guess someway going to the fortress in heaven. But, Jesus of course said he would be hiding in the secret chambers, and let no man deceiving you saying he is here nor there, because like the vultures gather to the prey, there he is. And also he says he has the keys to death and hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astral Hillbilly Posted May 22, 2016 #52 Share Posted May 22, 2016 No, demons are nothing more than characters from myths and legends, just like ghosts. If only you knew how wrong you are. Ghosts, I'm not sure about, but demons are absolutely real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 23, 2016 #53 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) Got proof of that? I don't. Even with years of effort, I've yet to encounter a demon. Makes me kinda sad. You'd figure there'd been something. Alas to no avail. Edited May 23, 2016 by XenoFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astral Hillbilly Posted May 23, 2016 #54 Share Posted May 23, 2016 14 hours ago, XenoFish said: Got proof of that? I don't. Even with years of effort, I've yet to encounter a demon. Makes me kinda sad. You'd figure there'd been something. Alas to no avail. You should be thankful if you've never encountered a demon personally. You seem to take the issue lightly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 23, 2016 #55 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I've no reason not too. Seems to me that the idea of a demon is to invoke fear and paranoia. The adult version of the boogie man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted May 23, 2016 #56 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Astral Hillbilly said: You should be thankful if you've never encountered a demon personally. You seem to take the issue lightly. When I first became a Pagan I encounter what you would call a demon while meditating in the backyard.. I was on an Imramma which is a spiritual journey. I came upon some beings, they were really strange looking, black faces that looked like folded paper. There were binding someone. They wanted me to help, I said I didn't know what and why their doing what they were doing. So I told them I would pass. Then whoosh, I was sitting in my chair in the backyard. I'll be honest it scared the hell out me at the time. When I told my Pagan minister at the time he said it was a test and I had done well. I think they were the dark parts of my psyche most like. Stuff like that doesn't scare me anymore. Pity the poor ghost or demon who encounters my Pagan friends. They would chasing it talking pictures and asking for autographs like paparazzi's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finity Posted May 23, 2016 #57 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) I killed one in a dream once, does that count? I remember it clearly even though it was a long time ago. It was jet black, almost featureless, with glowing eyes. But scary looks didn't save it I saw it in a few dreams leading up to that, but never since. Edited May 23, 2016 by Finity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted May 24, 2016 #58 Share Posted May 24, 2016 On 5/22/2016 at 0:57 PM, Astral Hillbilly said: On 5/22/2016 at 0:57 PM, Astral Hillbilly said: No, demons are nothing more than characters from myths and legends, just like ghosts. If only you knew how wrong you are. Ghosts, I'm not sure about, but demons are absolutely real. That's cute. Your proof is where? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 25, 2016 #59 Share Posted May 25, 2016 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted May 25, 2016 #60 Share Posted May 25, 2016 The thing that makes me doubt ghosts and demons (and angels and pixies and so on) is that they are so different from culture to culture. Take dragons (something I would hope there is general agreement about the non-existence thereof) -- each culture has dragons, but they aren't the same. Chinese dragons are warm and cuddly, albeit also colorful and noisy, and in general well spirited beings who protect us in our sleep. Western dragons eat the livestock and even the people (they seem to have a taste for virgins), and breathe fire. What happens is that translators have to find a word for some cultural notion when writing about it for a different audience, so they look for something roughly similar in the other culture. This is inevitable but misleads naive readers. The Asian equivalent for an angel would be a bodhisattva, beings intent on wandering around solving our problems and healing us and so on, but in reality they could not be more different. The bodhisattva is likely to be the beggar or the humped-over old woman, and is in fact a spirit with such glorious karmic power that they could render us all into chocolate, but also possess such tremendous compassion that all they want is to help us and all other beings on their way. By comparison all angels seem to do is sometimes offer soothing words about God's mysterious ways but mostly sing and play obsolete musical instruments. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 25, 2016 #61 Share Posted May 25, 2016 10 hours ago, Frank Merton said: The thing that makes me doubt ghosts and demons (and angels and pixies and so on) is that they are so different from culture to culture. Well, many things that we all share are different in context , meaning and signification from culture to culture. To me this shows it is some type of underlying 'reality' ( that is, a 'reality' of human experience ). The thing is, although the perception of these things may differ culturally, their essential elements are similar for each type of experience , and each type is fairly well defined - all cultures have them . Eg. Harpur gives a story out llne to different cultures ; a group of people are in the forest, they start to feel 'strange and different ' (apprehensive, sensitive, hair risen etc. ) a spherical light appears and within is a person, there is some type of communication, time may be lost and afterwards people claim to feel changed, or effected, sometimes with claimed physical marks. Each culture 'knew' exactly what it was ; "Twas a visit from the little people, to be sure ! " , " A visitation from the Blessed Virgin" , " Typical Close encounters of the 3rd kind " . The story came from a tribe, it was a good story they thought as it showed that ancestors had visited some of their people. All different appearances but similar processes and indicators. We could call this one 'the shining visitation' . Another cross cultural example is 'the lake (or river) monster' , they all look different too. The man/animal ..... in Africa they even have a were-crocodile . Same books, different covers 10 hours ago, Frank Merton said: Take dragons (something I would hope there is general agreement about the non-existence thereof) -- each culture has dragons, but they aren't the same. Chinese dragons are warm and cuddly, albeit also colorful and noisy, and in general well spirited beings who protect us in our sleep. Western dragons eat the livestock and even the people (they seem to have a taste for virgins), and breathe fire. Ah, but that is the fault of the culture, not the dragon A lot of sexual oppression was going on around the time of popular western dragon myths ...... those valiant asexual pining troubadours ! ~ note, in the western dragon pics there is usually a bound or chained maiden somewhere I suggest it is not a question whether certain 'creatures' are 'real' or not but what constitutes the human view of (apparently shifting ) 'reality'. 10 hours ago, Frank Merton said: What happens is that translators have to find a word for some cultural notion when writing about it for a different audience, so they look for something roughly similar in the other culture. This is inevitable but misleads naive readers. Agreed - a term can come with a huge cultural context attached. The best example (down ) here is 'Dreamtime' . 10 hours ago, Frank Merton said: The Asian equivalent for an angel would be a bodhisattva, beings intent on wandering around solving our problems and healing us and so on, but in reality they could not be more different. The bodhisattva is likely to be the beggar or the humped-over old woman, and is in fact a spirit with such glorious karmic power that they could render us all into chocolate, but also possess such tremendous compassion that all they want is to help us and all other beings on their way. By comparison all angels seem to do is sometimes offer soothing words about God's mysterious ways but mostly sing and play obsolete musical instruments. Only if one equates the specific term of Bodhisatva with the very general term of angel 10 hours ago, Frank Merton said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 25, 2016 #62 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I think I see what your getting at. What do these being represent. Each person and even cultures will have a different view on what amounts to the same idea. Maybe it's just me, but I think the harpy and angels are the same thing, just altered by cultural/religious view points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbco196 Posted May 26, 2016 #63 Share Posted May 26, 2016 14 hours ago, Frank Merton said: The thing that makes me doubt ghosts and demons (and angels and pixies and so on) is that they are so different from culture to culture. Take dragons (something I would hope there is general agreement about the non-existence thereof) -- each culture has dragons, but they aren't the same. Chinese dragons are warm and cuddly, albeit also colorful and noisy, and in general well spirited beings who protect us in our sleep. Western dragons eat the livestock and even the people (they seem to have a taste for virgins), and breathe fire. What happens is that translators have to find a word for some cultural notion when writing about it for a different audience, so they look for something roughly similar in the other culture. This is inevitable but misleads naive readers. The Asian equivalent for an angel would be a bodhisattva, beings intent on wandering around solving our problems and healing us and so on, but in reality they could not be more different. The bodhisattva is likely to be the beggar or the humped-over old woman, and is in fact a spirit with such glorious karmic power that they could render us all into chocolate, but also possess such tremendous compassion that all they want is to help us and all other beings on their way. By comparison all angels seem to do is sometimes offer soothing words about God's mysterious ways but mostly sing and play obsolete musical instruments. Angels singing and playing music is popular culture. Kind of like them being entities with wings. The Bible doesn't point me in that direction at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted May 26, 2016 #64 Share Posted May 26, 2016 1 hour ago, barbco196 said: Angels singing and playing music is popular culture. Kind of like them being entities with wings. The Bible doesn't point me in that direction at all. Yes, Bible angels are something different. Another culture mistranslation I suppose, although in this case probably with a common inspiration. To Back to Earth: (your post is too long to quote), I disagree. They do not reflect common human experience, just translation problems. They are utterly different. As evidence of any reality here it falls flat on its face. There are similarities -- that is the reason for the translation -- but the details are consistent within each culture and consistently different. To say this merely reflects poor comprehension of some reality overlooks the consistent experience people in different cultures report. When people are imagining or inventing stories, they tend to make them fit within the culture so as to be believed or to fit what they expect. That they are different from culture to culture only tells me they are not real but delusions and fictions. I will admit, though, that I'm glad of them. They make our culture more interesting and give wide scope for fantasy writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted May 26, 2016 #65 Share Posted May 26, 2016 3 hours ago, Frank Merton said: Yes, Bible angels are something different. Another culture mistranslation I suppose, although in this case probably with a common inspiration. To Back to Earth: (your post is too long to quote), I disagree. They do not reflect common human experience, just translation problems. They are utterly different. As evidence of any reality here it falls flat on its face. Of course such things reflect common human experience. Not only today ( have you been reading posts on various forums here ? Checked youtube lately ? and this is in our scientific materialistic culture that is rational. All cultures throughout time and place have had similar experiences with the 'other world' or 'different reality' etc . Its all through history and psychology as well (Jung) . Since you didn't answer my questions, then ... what can I say? For example if you were going to compare Demon ,in Buddhism, why on earth pic Bodhisatva ? You could have picked 'hungry ghost' : demon .... or Bhodhisatva : saint . I stated their FORM was different. I am not disputing that , I am .... well, I already said it above. These are dynamics of the human psyche, expressed through all times and cultures - it is an interaction between the essential human nature and dynamics in the unconscious, that comes to consciousness, but not via a normal route. WE give it a form (or think it takes its own form ) so as better to try to comprehend and understand it. of course that form and understanding is presented in the local cultural context . 3 hours ago, Frank Merton said: There are similarities -- that is the reason for the translation -- but the details are consistent within each culture and consistently different. To say this merely reflects poor comprehension of some reality overlooks the consistent experience people in different cultures report. When people are imagining or inventing stories, they tend to make them fit within the culture so as to be believed or to fit what they expect. That they are different from culture to culture only tells me they are not real but delusions and fictions. Again, back to the issue of what constitutes ' real ' . For some cultures, what they feel is real, is your idea of fantasy . I am looking at the overall human condition and perceptions , not just one persons, not yours or not even just mine. It is a basic human experience, that is varied by type, in a similar way cross culturally. I can start listing them if you want. One is the child stealer/witch' ; an old one; it is here locally, in Fairy Lore , classic Hanse and Gretel (with some baby cooking thrown in, many cultures 'cook' their children- in a positive way, not in the Hansel and Gretel averted form, some patterns expressed in the stories and myths are reversals ) , even a an outbreak a few years back in the USA - the case of the fake child welfare workers ( these guys are classic MiB types - that is they don't actually look like 'Men in Black'. but the events around them, how people feel, and how they behaved are very similar ) . Many of us , without knowing it, are living out certain 'mythological patterns' (again, read posts all over this forum ) . Nowadays we just call them 'nuts' ... there are an awful lot around aren't there ? 3 hours ago, Frank Merton said: I will admit, though, that I'm glad of them. They make our culture more interesting and give wide scope for fantasy writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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