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Did the allies control the weather in WW2?


grimsituation6

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Hey! That makes up for almost 0.0004% of the Vergina jokes I've had to sit through.

--Jaylemurph

 

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12 hours ago, Habitat said:

 

Oh come on. That was completely uncalled for! ;-)

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Well, well... looks like the allies forgot how to control the weather since...

But I am not surprised given the atomic bomb thread by the same posterr.

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 8:38 PM, grimsituation6 said:

Certain metals attract water molecules and cause them to bundle together, in theory a large ammount of small metalic strips is dropped into the atmosphere it will attract water vapor and seed a cloud.

Chaff is relatively large and falls relatively quickly, as compared to a particle that could seed precipitation, so had nothing at all to do with the weather that affected some major combat operations in the European theater.   Remember that these major storms rolled in from the North Atlantic which is why they are still finding Nazi remote weather stations in Newfoundland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Station_Kurt and the man who made the call on the D-Day invasion was located in a lighthouse off the far western Irish coast http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-blacksod-lighthouse-changed-the-course-of-the-second-world-war-30319681.html   

I know you won't read these articles grimsit but I thought the other guys would enjoy them.  I found them originally on a little site called War History Online which has a lot of these stories.  As Qmark said, this is as of base as yoru A-Bomb thread.  Where are you getting these ideas from?  You do realize that we dump a helluva lot of chaff in the US southwest desert don't you and it has zero effect on the weather so evidence that you are wrong is easy to find? 

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 11:37 PM, ChrLzs said:

Even now, South Alabam, it's uncertain how the MUCH greater number of contrails generated by modern air traffic affects the weather/climate. It certainly does not generally affect precipitation or stormy weather (wrong height, wrong type of clouds), and the trails are generated only at high altitudes (usually over 25,000ft) in conditions where cirrus cloud cover was likely anyway. Yes, large amounts of contrails do have the potential to affect the weather, but it is a complex issue involving contrary effects - eg the direct shading/UV/IR blocking effect vs the 'greenhouse' effect from the slight increase in cloud cover. It has not been resolved (afaik, happy to be contradicted) as to which way it goes despite a number of studies, so I think it is safe to assume that the effect is not that significant.

First off, my links above were in no way confirming the Allies could control the weather. It was just a link I had found and had heard about many years how massive raids  ie.. a hundred or more aircraft could have affected the weather in wwii. Put 150 B-17's together at 29,000 feet and you have 600 contrails all massed together. That was the focus of the article as it stated: "Researchers focused on larger bombing raids between 1943 to 1945." Modern air traffic is indeed greater, but much more spread out than wwii bombing raids.

 

Here is a link from the weathernetwork on PSU study about contrails confirming according to their data that contrails can affect surface temperatures. http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/jet-contrails-can-affect-temperatures-on-the-ground/53045/

NOAA website also confirms surface altering temperatures from contrails : https://answers.noaa.gov/noaa.answers/ext/kb520-condensation-chemtrails-contrails-aircraft--what-are-chemical-trails-do-they-affect-the-weather

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1 hour ago, South Alabam said:

First off, my links above were in no way confirming the Allies could control the weather. It was just a link I had found and had heard about many years how massive raids  ie.. a hundred or more aircraft could have affected the weather in wwii. Put 150 B-17's together at 29,000 feet and you have 600 contrails all massed together. That was the focus of the article as it stated: "Researchers focused on larger bombing raids between 1943 to 1945." Modern air traffic is indeed greater, but much more spread out than wwii bombing raids.

 

Here is a link from the weathernetwork on PSU study about contrails confirming according to their data that contrails can affect surface temperatures. http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/jet-contrails-can-affect-temperatures-on-the-ground/53045/

NOAA website also confirms surface altering temperatures from contrails : https://answers.noaa.gov/noaa.answers/ext/kb520-condensation-chemtrails-contrails-aircraft--what-are-chemical-trails-do-they-affect-the-weather

You're kidding right?  These aircraft occupied a very small pieces of sky for a very limited time while massive weather fronts rolled on over thousands of miles.  This is pure silliness

Edited by Merc14
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9 hours ago, Merc14 said:

You're kidding right?  These aircraft occupied a very small pieces of sky for a very limited time while massive weather fronts rolled on over thousands of miles.  This is pure silliness

MacKenzie and his collaborators searched military and weather records and selected raids that involved more than 1,000 aircraft followed by raid-free days with similar weather. They found a raid that took place on May 11, 1944, made for the best case study. That morning 1,444 aircraft took off from southeast England into a clear sky. The contrails from these aircraft significantly suppressed the morning temperature increase across areas with a high density of flights, the researchers found.

"This is tantalizing evidence that Second World War bombing raids can be used to help us understand processes affecting contemporary climate," MacKenzie said.

The research is detailed in the International Journal of Climatology.

Source:      http://www.livescience.com/14944-wwii-bombing-raids-contrails-weather-climate.html

This is the same thing NOAA and NASA found in the no fly days after 9/11. The surface temperature increased because there were no contrails, and the wwii flights suppressed the temperatures because there were contrails in southeast England.

None of the articles claim contrails caused storms. Only changes in weather in the form of surface temperatures affected.

 

 

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Saying "as a consequence of thousand bomber raids, the weather worsened" is light years away from saying "the allies controlled the weather". 

 

Furthermore, I don't understand the mechsnics of something no wider than my house changing the weather dynamics of an entire county. Even if there were a thousand of them, they'd still only cover a small stretch of land, I dare say there's more cloud over my house right now (a couple of large cirrus clouds) then the mass of condensation generated by a thousand bomber raid. 

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6 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Saying "as a consequence of thousand bomber raids, the weather worsened" is light years away from saying "the allies controlled the weather". 

 

Furthermore, I don't understand the mechsnics of something no wider than my house changing the weather dynamics of an entire county. Even if there were a thousand of them, they'd still only cover a small stretch of land, I dare say there's more cloud over my house right now (a couple of large cirrus clouds) then the mass of condensation generated by a thousand bomber raid. 

That would be my comment also, while 1000 bomber raids were 'large' they covered only a tiny percentage of the sky far for less than 1/100 of 1 %, I think the writers of that report were not taking into account the sheer scale of just how big the sky is over Europe vs. the tiny tiny part with bombers spewing contrails in .

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 8:33 PM, grimsituation6 said:

Whether accidental or not, cloud seeding had its roots in WW2, it was codenamed "window" and was the early development stage of chaffe. It may have been the cause of the unusual frequency of major storms in europe in the early 1940's.

Seeding is done, for the most part with chemicals and to a small extent with metal particles (like aluminum).  Chaff strips are too large for seeding so no they didn't even accidentally seed the clouds in world war 2.

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2 hours ago, Quaentum said:

Seeding is done, for the most part with chemicals and to a small extent with metal particles (like aluminum).  Chaff strips are too large for seeding so no they didn't even accidentally seed the clouds in world war 2.

Having thought about it a bit I would say that WWII in its entirety may have had a minor effect on the weather this was due to the  increased use of petroleum as fuel, fires from burning cities and industrial fumes as most industries were working day and night, high altitude plumes were a tiny part of this also. How much affect would this have? I am not even sure it would be measurable in the sense of WWII era instruments - we might be able to detect it with 2015 instruments however.

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Furthermore, any consequential change in weather patterns as a result of bomber raids isn't controlling the weather, it's "accidentally messing the weather up".

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31 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Furthermore, any consequential change in weather patterns as a result of bomber raids isn't controlling the weather, it's "accidentally messing the weather up".

That would be my thought all the war operations would have added a tiny modifier to the then present weather - whether good or bad is unknown but it certainly wasn't

'controlling'.

Most of the main weather patterns (that affected western Europe) seem to come in from the Atlantic.

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On 5/30/2016 at 11:25 PM, South Alabam said:

MacKenzie and his collaborators searched military and weather records and selected raids that involved more than 1,000 aircraft followed by raid-free days with similar weather. They found a raid that took place on May 11, 1944, made for the best case study. That morning 1,444 aircraft took off from southeast England into a clear sky. The contrails from these aircraft significantly suppressed the morning temperature increase across areas with a high density of flights, the researchers found.

"This is tantalizing evidence that Second World War bombing raids can be used to help us understand processes affecting contemporary climate," MacKenzie said.

The research is detailed in the International Journal of Climatology.

Source:      http://www.livescience.com/14944-wwii-bombing-raids-contrails-weather-climate.html

This is the same thing NOAA and NASA found in the no fly days after 9/11. The surface temperature increased because there were no contrails, and the wwii flights suppressed the temperatures because there were contrails in southeast England.

None of the articles claim contrails caused storms. Only changes in weather in the form of surface temperatures affected.

 

 

Interestingly, it seems you may not have read the full report (it can be found here).  In particular you didn't quote from the summary, which very clearly states:

Quote

The results from the single case study presented here are clearly not sufficient to draw conclusions regarding the impact of aviation on climate

So, my suggestion would be ... NOT to draw conclusions from it.  There are MANY factors which were not taken into account, like altitude, and of course there are many other potential causes for that ONE temperature variation, including the often overlooked fact that any substantial cloud bank triggered by contrails was already quite likely to develop, anyway ..  with such a complex issue to study, you need a LOT of data gathering.

 

Added PS - By the way, these words:

{the contrails..} suppressed the morning temperature increase across areas with a high density of flights

were NOT found in the report, but were an interpretation added by a reporter.  Imo, they misrepresent the content of the report significantly.

Edited by ChrLzs
..to fix paragraph breaks and add the PS
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