kmt_sesh Posted May 28, 2016 #1 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I am finishing reading a recent book in paleopathology called Scanning the Pharaohs: CT Imaging of the New Kingdom Royal Mummies (American University in Cairo Press, 2016). The authors are Zahi Hawass, who provides all of the historical background in the book's narrative, and Sahar Saleem, who contributes nearly all of the diagnostic medical findings of the imaging of the royal mummies. The book was supposed to have been released last year but was long delayed, I suspect largely due to Hawass's removal from his governmental position in Egypt. I'm willing to bet this was the last book Hawass was aiming to publish before his removal from the SCA. It's a fascinating study of numerous royal mummies from ancient Egypt's heyday, Dynasties 18-20 (New Kingdom). The book serves to show how incredibly useful modern medical imaging technologies are to our wider understanding of history. I'd love to discuss a lot of the mummies who were studied in the book, but I do accept the bewildering fact that not everyone is interested in ancient Egypt and not everyone loves mummies. So I will keep this discussion limited to just one mummy (at least for now), and it's one of the most interesting case studies in the book. That mummy is Ramesses III Usermaatre-meryamun, who reigned c. 1185-1153 BCE (early Dynasty 20). There's a lot one can say about Ramesses III, who is generally regarded as the last of the great pharaohs. He successfully repelled several invasions by Libyans and Sea Peoples, but that's another story. His mummy is quite well preserved, and I've heard tell his desiccated visage was the inspiration for the original The Mummy movie (1932): But the great controversy that has swirled around Ramesses III throughout the duration of modern scholarship is the exact nature of his fate in the infamous harem conspiracy. The court records in which the guilty were tried over 3,000 years ago are preserved in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin. In my opinion no book better summarizes the conspiracy and trial than Pascal Vernus's Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt. The mystery is, nothing in the Judicial Papyrus clarifies whether the conspiracy was successful. This is not surprising, given the fact that the ancient Egyptians were the best of spin doctors and would not have wanted to record whether their god-king had actually been assassinated. There are hints and clues about his fate, but nothing definitive. And to this day scholars have argued over whether Ramesses III was actually killed. I don't need to take up a lot of space providing details about the harem conspiracy, but essentially it's believed the leaders were a queen of Ramesses' named Tiye and his own son by her, a man named Pentaweret. This prince was not given the status of heir to the throne, which Ramesses had given to another son also called Ramesses (IV), but Tiye was trying to eliminate Ramesses III so that she could place Pentaweret on the throne. Numerous officials and women in the harem, as well as their families, were involved in the conspiracy. To come to the point, which isn't easy for me to do, Sahar Seleem's analysis of the CT scans of Ramesses III have settled the issue. The king was indeed murdered. This mummy had never been unwrapped, and X-rays taken in the past were not as clear, but the CT scans clearly show a horrible wound to the throat. Below is a scan of the trunk and neck of the king (sagittal CT reconstruction from the proper left); The wound was caused by a sharp-bladed instrument, likely a knife. It involves tissues from the fifth to the seventh cervical vertebrae, creating a gap in the soft tissues and severing the trachea, esophagus, and all adjacent blood vessels. Death would've been nearly immediate. In the image above are two little black arrows which are kind of hard to see, but they point to notable separations between a couple of the vertebrae involved. The long white arrow points to an amulet: the Eye of Horus. It seems to have been placed by the embalmers inside the wound, to provide magical healing and protection for the afterlife. Interestingly, scans of the king's feet show his left big toe had been sheered off. Indications are this was at or near the time of death, so this injury may have been inflicted when the king was attacked and killed. The embalmers had used linen to remodel and rebuild the toe, to keep the king's body complete. In the Judicial Papyrus we are told the fates of nearly all the individuals who had been part of the conspiracy. Needless to say nearly all of them were put to death. Those of especially high rank, such as the prince Pentaweret, were left to commit forced suicide. If there's any interest to this thread, perhaps I'll elaborate on the mummy now believed to be that of Pentaweret, but this will do for now. I welcome comments, questions, and spirited debate. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted May 28, 2016 #2 Share Posted May 28, 2016 I'm moving this to the Conspiracies forum. Oh, wait! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 28, 2016 Author #3 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Go ahead, I double-dog dare you! I removed your duplicate post. I wanted to practice the Mod tools. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted May 28, 2016 #4 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Damn you and your supernatural living/dead zombie/mummy moderator powers. I'm invoking the Past Basset Masters. *Good Dog/goD, do whatever you want!* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted May 28, 2016 #5 Share Posted May 28, 2016 The method of execution in those days was horrific... if accused, I think I would have opted for a swift suicide. Interrogation methods were crude, too (though not as deliberately sadistic as some of the Medieval devices.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofkrypton Posted May 31, 2016 #6 Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 28/05/2016 at 5:21 AM, kmt_sesh said: I am finishing reading a recent book in paleopathology called Scanning the Pharaohs: CT Imaging of the New Kingdom Royal Mummies (American University in Cairo Press, 2016). The authors are Zahi Hawass, who provides all of the historical background in the book's narrative, and Sahar Saleem, who contributes nearly all of the diagnostic medical findings of the imaging of the royal mummies. The book was supposed to have been released last year but was long delayed, I suspect largely due to Hawass's removal from his governmental position in Egypt. I'm willing to bet this was the last book Hawass was aiming to publish before his removal from the SCA. It's a fascinating study of numerous royal mummies from ancient Egypt's heyday, Dynasties 18-20 (New Kingdom). The book serves to show how incredibly useful modern medical imaging technologies are to our wider understanding of history. I'd love to discuss a lot of the mummies who were studied in the book, but I do accept the bewildering fact that not everyone is interested in ancient Egypt and not everyone loves mummies. So I will keep this discussion limited to just one mummy (at least for now), and it's one of the most interesting case studies in the book. That mummy is Ramesses III Usermaatre-meryamun, who reigned c. 1185-1153 BCE (early Dynasty 20). There's a lot one can say about Ramesses III, who is generally regarded as the last of the great pharaohs. He successfully repelled several invasions by Libyans and Sea Peoples, but that's another story. His mummy is quite well preserved, and I've heard tell his desiccated visage was the inspiration for the original The Mummy movie (1932): But the great controversy that has swirled around Ramesses III throughout the duration of modern scholarship is the exact nature of his fate in the infamous harem conspiracy. The court records in which the guilty were tried over 3,000 years ago are preserved in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin. In my opinion no book better summarizes the conspiracy and trial than Pascal Vernus's Affairs and Scandals in Ancient Egypt. The mystery is, nothing in the Judicial Papyrus clarifies whether the conspiracy was successful. This is not surprising, given the fact that the ancient Egyptians were the best of spin doctors and would not have wanted to record whether their god-king had actually been assassinated. There are hints and clues about his fate, but nothing definitive. And to this day scholars have argued over whether Ramesses III was actually killed. I don't need to take up a lot of space providing details about the harem conspiracy, but essentially it's believed the leaders were a queen of Ramesses' named Tiye and his own son by her, a man named Pentaweret. This prince was not given the status of heir to the throne, which Ramesses had given to another son also called Ramesses (IV), but Tiye was trying to eliminate Ramesses III so that she could place Pentaweret on the throne. Numerous officials and women in the harem, as well as their families, were involved in the conspiracy. To come to the point, which isn't easy for me to do, Sahar Seleem's analysis of the CT scans of Ramesses III have settled the issue. The king was indeed murdered. This mummy had never been unwrapped, and X-rays taken in the past were not as clear, but the CT scans clearly show a horrible wound to the throat. Below is a scan of the trunk and neck of the king (sagittal CT reconstruction from the proper left); The wound was caused by a sharp-bladed instrument, likely a knife. It involves tissues from the fifth to the seventh cervical vertebrae, creating a gap in the soft tissues and severing the trachea, esophagus, and all adjacent blood vessels. Death would've been nearly immediate. In the image above are two little black arrows which are kind of hard to see, but they point to notable separations between a couple of the vertebrae involved. The long white arrow points to an amulet: the Eye of Horus. It seems to have been placed by the embalmers inside the wound, to provide magical healing and protection for the afterlife. Interestingly, scans of the king's feet show his left big toe had been sheered off. Indications are this was at or near the time of death, so this injury may have been inflicted when the king was attacked and killed. The embalmers had used linen to remodel and rebuild the toe, to keep the king's body complete. In the Judicial Papyrus we are told the fates of nearly all the individuals who had been part of the conspiracy. Needless to say nearly all of them were put to death. Those of especially high rank, such as the prince Pentaweret, were left to commit forced suicide. If there's any interest to this thread, perhaps I'll elaborate on the mummy now believed to be that of Pentaweret, but this will do for now. I welcome comments, questions, and spirited debate. Absolutely Fascinating Kmt_Sesh! i love how years after the Mummies have been poked and prodded they still have much to tell us! and with this non invasive technique allows future generations to study them in regards to the above i'd love to know more and would be greatly interested on Pentawaret's Mummy and your thoughts on that 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel M. Posted June 1, 2016 #7 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Okay here's your stupid question of the thread, Kmt: are we looking at the side of the mummy with the 'face' pointed left? Second question is for Kenemet: is there really a swift suicide method from that period? I would think just about any option would be a bit drawn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 1, 2016 #8 Share Posted June 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, Child of Bast said: Okay here's your stupid question of the thread, Kmt: are we looking at the side of the mummy with the 'face' pointed left? Second question is for Kenemet: is there really a swift suicide method from that period? I would think just about any option would be a bit drawn out. I can answer the second: yes there was. Besides a Cobra bite there is Water Hemlock... now Swift is a relative thing... but no matter how much you wanted, with the first you have a chance of survival within 5 minutes and the latter, ingested in a large enough quantity, cannot be treated to our day (btw, that is how they sent Socrates into the eternal hunting grounds). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel M. Posted June 1, 2016 #9 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I suppose that's true, questionmark: swift is a relative term in any time period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 1, 2016 #10 Share Posted June 1, 2016 2 hours ago, questionmark said: I can answer the second: yes there was. Besides a Cobra bite there is Water Hemlock... now Swift is a relative thing... but no matter how much you wanted, with the first you have a chance of survival within 5 minutes and the latter, ingested in a large enough quantity, cannot be treated to our day (btw, that is how they sent Socrates into the eternal hunting grounds). They also had opium which one could overdose on - just how long that would take I could not guess at 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDagger Posted June 1, 2016 #11 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Thanks Kmt for creating this thread; interesting stuff as usual. Especially from such a recent book and from Zahi Hawass no less. On 5/28/2016 at 0:21 AM, kmt_sesh said: >>>> To come to the point, which isn't easy for me to do, Sahar Seleem's analysis of the CT scans of Ramesses III have settled the issue. The king was indeed murdered. This mummy had never been unwrapped, and X-rays taken in the past were not as clear, but the CT scans clearly show a horrible wound to the throat. Below is a scan of the trunk and neck of the king (sagittal CT reconstruction from the proper left); >>>> In the Judicial Papyrus we are told the fates of nearly all the individuals who had been part of the conspiracy. Needless to say nearly all of them were put to death. Those of especially high rank, such as the prince Pentaweret, were left to commit forced suicide. If there's any interest to this thread, perhaps I'll elaborate on the mummy now believed to be that of Pentaweret, but this will do for now. I welcome comments, questions, and spirited debate. Could this damage have occurred during embalming? Maybe on purpose to insert the amulet? Please do elaborate on Pentawaret's assumed mummy. Meanwhile I'll read up on the harem conspiracy on wikipedia. MDagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 2, 2016 Author #12 Share Posted June 2, 2016 13 hours ago, Child of Bast said: Okay here's your stupid question of the thread, Kmt: are we looking at the side of the mummy with the 'face' pointed left? Second question is for Kenemet: is there really a swift suicide method from that period? I would think just about any option would be a bit drawn out. It's a perfectly reasonable question. I didn't stop to think that the image might be confusing, so I prepared the labeled graphic below. Basically what your seeing is a sagittal CT scan, which means the body is sliced vertically as through run through a table saw. In this image the head is not visible and is just out of range at the top. The left arm and shoulder have been digitally removed. That's one of the important functions of a CT scan; you can digitally erase areas of the body to look beyond them. In relation to methods of suicide, rest assured those forced to do the deed after the harem conspiracy were not meant to go gently. They were guilty of the most horrific crime imaginable, after all. And they were only allowed suicide because their status permitted it. The Judicial Papyrus doesn't tell us exactly how the convicted killed themselves, and we can't know for sure, but ingesting poison has long been suspected. Although the putative mummy of Pentaweret might reveal something else (more on that later). Execution of state-level criminals could not have been pretty. We don't have a full understanding of the methods but impalement is suspected to be one of them (there is even a hieroglyph depicting this). Decapitation might have been another, as perhaps was burning alive. All such methods would've destroyed the body, making a proper mummification impossible and aiding in the state's desire to destroy the souls of the convicted. This would've been the grim fate of most who were convicted in the harem conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 2, 2016 Author #13 Share Posted June 2, 2016 10 hours ago, Hanslune said: They also had opium which one could overdose on - just how long that would take I could not guess at That sounds quite pleasant but don't take it as an excuse to experiment, young man. 10 hours ago, MDagger said: Thanks Kmt for creating this thread; interesting stuff as usual. Especially from such a recent book and from Zahi Hawass no less. Could this damage have occurred during embalming? Maybe on purpose to insert the amulet? Please do elaborate on Pentawaret's assumed mummy. Meanwhile I'll read up on the harem conspiracy on wikipedia. MDagger Plenty of mummies show damage from embalming and even more so from tomb raiders, including many of the royal mummies analyzed in the book in my OP. But this is unlikely to have been from the embalming procedures because it's not an area the embalmers usually cut into externally. The one exception is the strategic slits they would cut into the body to insert packing substances to "flesh out" the withered body. But such slits are always superficial and do not extend below the subcutaneous tissues. The wound in Ramesses' neck extends all the way down to and meets the cervical vertebrae, and severed all of the adjacent tissues (blood vessels, esophagus, trachea). A classic slit throat, in other words. The amulet (Eye of Horus) makes sense because of their belief in its magical healing powers. It was common in mummification and especially on or near wounds or parts of the body with which the person had problems during life (the radiologists found one behind Seti I's left arm but Sahar Seleem didn't elaborate in the book on what might've been wrong with that arm). Recall my description in the OP of Ramesses' severed left big toe, which appears to have been sliced off during the attack. There are actually several Eyes of Horus wrapped against this foot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 2, 2016 Author #14 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Thanks, everyone, for your replies and questions. I know how pedantic my threads can be, which is why they don't tend to last long. But a couple of posters have inquired about Pentaweret, so now I have an excuse to elaborate! Here is the mummy in question: The name is also written as Pentawere and Pentawer, among other ways. I have to stress that no one can be 100% certain if the mummy in the photo above is actually him, but recent analysis is pointing that way. The mummy's official designation is Unknown Man E. He was found in a large cache at Deir el Bahri back in the nineteenth century. The mummy was in a coffin that contained no inscriptions. He was originally unwrapped in the nineteenth century and the occasion created quite a fuss, because the officials who unwrapped him took one look at the face and were certain he'd been mummified alive. That's unlikely to be the case. Many years ago I was a paramedic, and as anyone familiar with death can tell you, plenty of people die with their mouths open. When it happens with a mummy, the creepy factor is merely enhanced. And Unknown Man E is quite a disconcerting-looking mummy. (The man who became this mummy is estimated to have been around 5'9" tall in life, which is the height of a typical man today but would've been practically a giant 3,000 years ago.) As I described in my OP, Pentaweret was a secondary prince who was not directly in line for the throne, but his scheming mother, the queen Tiye, engineered the harem conspiracy with Pentaweret to place him on the throne. The plot to kill Ramesses III certainly appears to have been successful, but that's as far as it went. Pentaweret was forced to commit suicide and the rightful heir, Ramesses IV, took the throne. Years ago the paleopathologist Bob Brier forwarded a theory that Pentaweret and Unknown Man E might be one and the same. Bob Brier is known for sometimes coming up with slightly goofy ideas, as brilliant as he actually is; I remember chuckling at this theory. There wasn't much evidence for Brier to point to. The body was not mummified but simply desiccated naturally inside its plain coffin. The hands and ankles were originally found bound with cord, and the body was wrapped in sheep skin (considered impure for burial). This is not the burial of someone valued and honored but of someone disgraced. So that was Brier's evidence. I didn't think it crazy, but I also was not convinced. In recent years the Egyptian government did extensive CT scanning of numerous royal mummies, and two of the last they analyzed before Arab Spring messed things up were Ramesses III and Unknown Man E. And it turns out the two are very closely related; a father-son relationship is quite possible based on the genetics. For some reason Unknown Man E was not CT scanned; or if he was, he was not included in the book in my OP. I mentioned in an earlier post that scholars have long suspected poisoning as a means of forced suicide, which may have been Pentaweret's fate. But Saleem and others have more recently externally examined the body and have noticed the stretched and folded skin of the neck. They suspect hanging as a possibility. Only a careful internal examination of the body would clarify this, so I'm left wondering if Unknown Man E has been scanned yet. In any case, it would seem Brier's old theory might not have been so goofy after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keel M. Posted June 2, 2016 #15 Share Posted June 2, 2016 So it would seem that thinking outside the box can sometimes provide answers to questions no one has thought to ask. Thank you for sharing your knowledge kmt_sesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 2, 2016 #16 Share Posted June 2, 2016 11 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: As usual, I'm right in the middle of things. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDagger Posted June 2, 2016 #17 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Again very interesting thanks. I wonder if residue of whatever typical poison used in the day can now be detected in the stomach remnants of the mummy if still remaining. Any mention in the book that CT scanning of mummies is continuing, maybe Pentaweret is on the short list. 1 hour ago, Harte said: As usual, I'm right in the middle of things. Harte That heart looks small and shriveled though. MDagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 2, 2016 #18 Share Posted June 2, 2016 One day you'll be old too. If you're lucky. Harte 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 3, 2016 Author #19 Share Posted June 3, 2016 10 hours ago, MDagger said: Again very interesting thanks. I wonder if residue of whatever typical poison used in the day can now be detected in the stomach remnants of the mummy if still remaining. Any mention in the book that CT scanning of mummies is continuing, maybe Pentaweret is on the short list. ... MDagger I don't know a lot about poison analysis but am aware that it can stay fixed in the hair for a long time. Unknown Man E is a well-preserved natural mummy and still has a lot of hair on his head, so it's possible they could analyze that. Paleohistologists could examine tissue samples from the body itself but I don't know if traces of poison would be easy to find. The Egyptian government is still experiencing fits and starts of ministry changes. Teams have been performing important scientific experiments on the pyramids but I don't know if the mummies themselves are getting much attention lately. Years back Hawass initiated the Egyptian Mummy Project to apply modern forensic studies to selected mummies, including CT scanning and genetic analysis. He was the driving force behind it, but the project seems to have stalled since his ouster some years ago. If they're still scanning mummies, I haven't heard about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 3, 2016 Author #20 Share Posted June 3, 2016 12 hours ago, Harte said: As usual, I'm right in the middle of things. Harte But MDagger is right. Sad to say, it is a small and withered organ. (Tee-hee!) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted June 3, 2016 #21 Share Posted June 3, 2016 37 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said: But MDagger is right. Sad to say, it is a small and withered organ. (Tee-hee!) Is that a tuffnut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted June 3, 2016 Author #22 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Speaking of small and withered organs, the book in my OP also discusses the state of preservation of the royal mummies' genitals. In my capacity in the Egyptian exhibit at our museum I field all sorts of questions about mummies, and it's not terribly surprising that kids—almost always pre-adolescent boys—occasionally ask what the embalmers did with a male mummy's privates. I usually keep it very basic and tend to say, "Really not much of anything, but they tried to preserve it." That's only partly true. Yes, they tried to preserve the genitals, but careful analysis of male mummies shows various different treatments to help ensure the "member" would stay intact. There's a reason for this. What I don't tell the kids is the belief that the penis would perform the exact same functions in the afterlife that it did in this life, so there was a reason to preserve it. They were often successful but not always. It's somewhat ironic (as well as amusing) that the mummy of Ramesses II—one of the longest-lived pharaohs and the father of over 80 children—no longer has his "bits." Poor Ramesses. I'll bet no one saw this post coming. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 3, 2016 #23 Share Posted June 3, 2016 On 6/1/2016 at 8:35 AM, Child of Bast said: Okay here's your stupid question of the thread, Kmt: are we looking at the side of the mummy with the 'face' pointed left? Second question is for Kenemet: is there really a swift suicide method from that period? I would think just about any option would be a bit drawn out. I don't know how they committed suicide back then... poison, probably and I remember someone threw himself into the Nile and drowned. But the method of execution was to take you out in the desert, hammer a sharp pointy stake down in the ground, and then forcibly sit you down on it so the point went through your body. Death By Hippopotamus would be quicker and somewhat more humane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDagger Posted June 3, 2016 #24 Share Posted June 3, 2016 13 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: I don't know a lot about poison analysis but am aware that it can stay fixed in the hair for a long time. Unknown Man E is a well-preserved natural mummy and still has a lot of hair on his head, so it's possible they could analyze that. Paleohistologists could examine tissue samples from the body itself but I don't know if traces of poison would be easy to find. The Egyptian government is still experiencing fits and starts of ministry changes. Teams have been performing important scientific experiments on the pyramids but I don't know if the mummies themselves are getting much attention lately. Years back Hawass initiated the Egyptian Mummy Project to apply modern forensic studies to selected mummies, including CT scanning and genetic analysis. He was the driving force behind it, but the project seems to have stalled since his ouster some years ago. If they're still scanning mummies, I haven't heard about it. I would assume inorganic-based poisons (eg arsenic) would remain in hair over time versus organic-based. Shame but hopefully once things settle down the scans will resume. So much information can be gained. 12 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: >>> I'll bet no one saw this post coming. Nope. MDagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDagger Posted June 3, 2016 #25 Share Posted June 3, 2016 20 hours ago, Harte said: One day you'll be old too. If you're lucky. Harte Depending on your definition of 'old' I'm already there. Though young at heart . Like yourself I'm sure. MDagger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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