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Maj. Gen. Yair Golan's courageous speech


Phaeton80

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On May 4th, the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day, Israel’s Deputy Chief of Staff, Major General Yair Golan spoke at Israel’s Massuah Institute for Holocaust Studies. He called for national introspection on Holocaust Memorial Day and warned that processes witnessed in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s are budding in Israel today..

Golan’s bold speech created a storm. Right-wing politicians brutally attacked him, as did some pundits.

Israelis heard and read portions of Maj. Gen. Golan’s speech. English speakers saw short quotes, taken out of the broader context.

For the benefit of English speakers, here is a translation of the bulk of the speech, which came after some personal notes about Golan’s visit to a Holocaust museum in a small village in Germany, where he saw photos of his family members who had lived there and were murdered in the Holocaust. Golan went on saying:

“The Holocaust, in my opinion, must lead us to a deep reflection on the nature of the human, even when that human is ourselves; It must lead us to a deep reflection on the responsibilities of leadership, and on the quality of society. It must lead us to think thoroughly about how we - here and now – treat the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, and those similar to them.

The Holocaust must lead us to think about our public life, and even more so, it must lead all those who can - not just those who want - to bear public responsibility. Because If there is something that scares us about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying nauseating processes that occurred in Europe in general and Germany in particular, 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of their presence here among us, today, in 2016.

For there is nothing easier than hating the alien. Nothing is easier and more simple than provoking anxiety and horror. Nothing is easier and simpler than brutalization, jadedness and self-righteousness.

On Holocaust memorial day, it is appropriate to discuss our own ability to uproot from our midst signs of intolerance, signs of violence, ad self-destruction on the path toward moral deterioration. In fact, Holocaust Memorial Day is an opportunity for introspection. If Yom Kippur is a day of private reckoning, then is it proper and even necessary for Holocaust Memorial Day to be a day for national soul-searching. And in this national soul-searching we must include some unsettling phenomena.

https://peacenow.org/entry.php?id=18048#.V0mMruSJs40

 

It seems a significant number of Jews are starting to act against the fascist, supremacist Netanyahu regime.. Was it only the leftist parties critisizing Israeli policy until recently, now even right wing figures like Ehud Barak are chiming in, warning of  "the seeds of fascism".  

About time.

 

Edited by Phaeton80
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This is not the first "courageous" act by this particular IDF general officer.  Once I actually read his whole speech I could find little to criticize in the thought behind the piece.  He did catch hell from the Right and some of it was deserved.  Those two opinions might seem inconsistent but it's not so.  

Though he over shot quite a bit, I agree that modern Israel is becoming fragmented in a dangerous way.  They are a population under unrelenting pressure yet they try to LIVE life and not cower under the assault.  After all, had they become emotionally overwhelmed in the beginning they'd have never survived.  They take great pride (too much sometimes, I think) in their ability to prosper and become stronger in the face of their enemies.  Like any democracy where free exchange of ideas is nurtured they have stratified or coalesced into divergent groups.  Their far Left works with foreign NGO's - including many paid for in the US - that openly try to undermine the sitting government.  The far Right and Settler groups are as belligerent as the Palestinians and seem to be chafing for some mythical "final showdown" that can settle all the differences, defeat the enemy and bring peace to the nation.  They don't seem to understand that such a fight will only cause the world hatred to sharpen.  So the Right only want peace on their own terms, the Left want peace on nearly ANY terms and it's safe to say that the Palestinians don't wan't peace, they want all the land back, period.  They say so regularly, loudly and openly.  In that atmosphere we have a general who has shown his political leaning to be to the Left and he has made no secret of it.  He looks at the Right in his nation and seems to see all the evil and the problems emanating from it.  He rightly criticizes the harsh rhetoric, policies and plans of that far Right yet he says nothing about the reality of the dangers, existential is not too strong a term here, that beset his nation.  He thinks the Right represent a slide toward Fascism which imo is silly but hey, he's a general and who am I to tell him he's silly? ;)  He no doubt loves his nation and wants peace the way all warriors desire peace.  

That said, he DID deserve to catch some hell for using such an occasion to lecture his nation and to use such language.  Israel is hardly the worst nation - even among Western nations - that has hard right or Xenophobic tendencies.  To tell Jews who are remembering the most gut wrenching and seminal moment in their history that they are becoming what they were persecuted by was in poor taste to say the least.  Holocaust remembrance day is sacred to those people.  Second, the political general is an obsequious thing in any nation IMO.  I also believe the phenomenon can be dangerous but Israel seems to thrive on it.  I just am not used to military officers being so openly political.  No doubt Gen Golan is looking to a future career in a different uniform.  Finally, his premise is clearly overblown.  In Nazi Germany there was a systematic, sustained and WIDELY supported march to the hard Right - accompanied by a fanatical cult of personality.  P80, you and a few others here probably do see Israel in that light today.  More than half of Americans still do not and there are several other nations around the world who do not.  Could they become like the Germans of of '30s? Yes.  Could Americans, Dutch, Italians... absolutely.  We all know how educated and otherwise civilized the German people were prior to the Hitler phenomenon.  Human beings morality fall along a continuum and in any country on the planet there are always enough on the wrong end of it to create another place like Germany in WWII.  All that is needed is the proper mix of pain, poverty and or desperation and the right voice offering a "solution".  My friends, frenemies and those who simply hate my outlook here at UM know (or assume they do) my mind on the times we live in.  I have no doubt whatever that the struggle between Islam and the "not Islam" mostly in the West will be the catalyst of our undoing.  I believe it will be centered on the conflict between Jew and Palestinian.  Eventually most of the world will fall in on the side of those who think that removing Israel as a nation in Palestine will solve all these mounting problems but when they try to execute that plan it will begin a time of horror this planet has never seen before nor will ever see again.  I think that this general is probably an honorable man but it will be those of his mindset in Israel that will lead to accepting a "deal" that will position Israel's enemies to over reach and then we'll all begin paying the piper.  Those who so hate the idea of a Jewish state may think this is a good and necessary thing.  It isn't going to take them long to realize how wrong they are when this little party starts, however.

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Thanks for that contribution AT. I hardly agree with it, as usual, but thats where this forum's for isnt it. Exchanging different views, like certain religious definitions and what not. ;-)

I personally think, just as mr. Golan, the specific occasion is the perfect place to heed such warnings.. if and when the danger is strong enough. And both mr. Golan, myself and people like us (including but not limited to a growing number of Israeli's) think it is. No event is sacred if your nation is being coerced into that which it was founded to guard against (fascism, supremacism, ultra nationalism, apartheid; all of which mixed together directly facilitating dehuminization, crimes against humanity). For they are indeed becoming that which they hate most, still playing the everlasting victim card at the first hint of critique (like the effort to equate Zionism with Semitism, or rather anti Zionism with anti Semitism).

Israel is hardly the worst nation, vielleicht.. But Israel should know better than any other nation of people what such xenophobism can, and will inadvertantly lead to. There seems to be an ongoing powerstruggle between the hawkish extreme right Netanyahu regime and those Israeli's who are recognizing the antithesis of their Jewish State, that is being.. has been created.

Another interesting WWIII scenario you paint there; I think it useless to predict certain specific events, but I will agree it would be most plausible to expect religion to be the catelyst; in this case most probably Zionism Vs. Islam. Both used in concert to achieve similar gains as was the case with WWI & II.

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55 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Thanks for that contribution AT. I hardly agree with it, as usual, but thats where this forum's for isnt it. Exchanging different views, like certain religious definitions and what not. ;-)

I personally think, just as mr. Golan, the specific occasion is the perfect place to heed such warnings.. if and when the danger is strong enough. And both mr. Golan, myself and people like us (including but not limited to a growing number of Israeli's) think it is. No event is sacred if your nation is being coerced into that which it was founded to guard against (fascism, supremacism, ultra nationalism, apartheid; all of which mixed together directly facilitating dehuminization, crimes against humanity). For they are indeed becoming that which they hate most, still playing the everlasting victim card at the first hint of critique (like the effort to equate Zionism with Semitism, or rather anti Zionism with anti Semitism).

Israel is hardly the worst nation, vielleicht.. But Israel should know better than any other nation of people what such xenophobism can, and will inadvertantly lead to. There seems to be an ongoing powerstruggle between the hawkish extreme right Netanyahu regime and those Israeli's who are recognizing the antithesis of their Jewish State, that is being.. has been created.

Another interesting WWIII scenario you paint there; I think it useless to predict certain specific events, but I will agree it would be most plausible to expect religion to be the catelyst; in this case most probably Zionism Vs. Islam. Both used in concert to achieve similar gains as was the case with WWI & II.

It's a valid point.  The divergence of opinion is based on why these leaders and their constituencies act as they do.  When the national socialists were rising to power they had no mortal enemies to contend with,  no existential threats, correct?  Israel OTOH has never enjoyed a single day since 5/14/48 where they have even been considered a legitimate State.  Nearly 70 years have passed and the population has grown by a factor 10 I believe.  Their new neighbors simply will never give up the idea that this land is theirs no matter what changes have occurred in the world.  They have certainly stayed the course, I'll give them that.  Now they have the might of the UN coming to their aid in a new way and most important of all, a US president who hates the Israeli leader enough to back stab the whole nation before he leaves office.  It will be interesting to see if Obama has the fortitude to take a great big dump on the whole Democrat party by either voting yes or abstaining (most likely) when the French initiative is held up for a vote.  If Israeli leaders were blockading Gaza and using airstrikes on their neighbors as well as imprisoning many Palestinians who had committed no violence then I'd be right there with the rest of the crowd demanding Israel change.  Israel is not doing that.  Those who want justice for the Palestinians will have a lot of soul searching to do when those same victims of Israeli aggression continue to kill Jews even after they have ultimately received the West Bank and East Jerusalem.  I want you on record today P80.  When the rockets begin to fall from the heights of the west bank onto Ben Gurion or the industrial areas of Israel will you stand and demand the UN allow Israel to remove the threat?

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Remove the illegal occupation, give these people their Palestine.. and Im sure the world will happily aid Israel in routing out any remnant extremist elements - hellbent on continuation of conflict - within Palestinian ranks. I have stated this before.

Until that day however, Palestine remains an ongoing crime scene. A scene of crimes against humanity. To continue oppression because you expect the oppressed to (continue to) act up once you end that oppression is irrational, even criminal. Logic of a deranged tirant. Why not first relieve yourself of the burden of occupation / oppression, robbing these people of their freedom. If they remain hostile, engage them with a clear concience and the full support of the civilized world.

 

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1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

Remove the illegal occupation, give these people their Palestine.. and Im sure the world will happily aid Israel in routing out any remnant extremist elements - hellbent on continuation of conflict - within Palestinian ranks. I have stated this before.

Until that day however, Palestine remains an ongoing crime scene. A scene of crimes against humanity. To continue oppression because you expect the oppressed to (continue to) act up once you end that oppression is irrational, even criminal. Logic of a deranged tirant. Why not first relieve yourself of the burden of occupation / oppression, robbing these people of their freedom. If they remain hostile, engage them with a clear concience and the full support of the civilized world.

 

There is nothing irrational about looking to the history of actions of a people to try to divine what they will do in future.  It's done everyday all over the planet.  It is the definition of rational behavior.  The world seems to want Israel to prostrate themselves before a dedicated enemy openly bent on their national destruction, possibly on a new attempt at genocide -their words, not mine.  The French plan, with Obama's acquiescence or open support, may well lead to bringing that reality closer.  If a Left leaning PM is elected soon then it might well happen.  If it does then we can watch it unfold together.

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Im quite sure the Nazi elite rationalised their crimes in a similar way; the threat Jews would potentially continue to pose in the future. You would rather continue militarily oppressing innocent civilians - who are not some evil entity acting in unison to destroy Israel like some would have you believe (dehumanization tactics for PR purposes) - then to give peace a chance. Apologies, but wouldnt that be an inherently anti- Christian proposition?

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2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Im quite sure the Nazi elite rationalised their crimes in a similar way; the threat Jews would potentially continue to pose in the future. You would rather continue militarily oppressing innocent civilians - who are not some evil entity acting in unison to destroy Israel like some would have you believe (dehumanization tactics for PR purposes) - then to give peace a chance. Apologies, but wouldnt that be an inherently anti- Christian proposition?

You're doing the same thing you accuse me of, priceless.  If you are paying attention, I will try again... What I'm saying is that quite soon your theory of giving peace a chance is going to be tested.  France is beginning to press an initiative that would cause Israel to give up all of the West Bank, to pull all troops from it and to vacate East Jerusalem.  Then the Palestinians will officially be recognized as a State.  In return the Palestinians would have to openly declare that Israel (what little is left by then) is the State of the Jewish people and completely and forever give up the right of return they claim.  Netanyahu has of course rejected it out of hand but Abbas (on his way out soon) is saying he's interested.  Hamas also rejects it out of hand.  Everything here seems to hinge on Obama's actions.  If he votes yes or if he abstains the US vote then the initiative will pass and the world will officially be aligned against Israel until that nation succumbs to the pressure and concedes completely.  You with me so far?  I have no idea, I admit, how Israel will initially react to this gambit.  My guess is that they will resist as long as they can and then bow to the pressure that will be placed on them through international economic boycott.  Keep in mind that while this measure will pass the UNSC under the conditions I mentioned, Hamas will STILL be in rejection of the measure.  I'm not sure what kinds of real economic pressure could be brought to bear on an entity that is funded by a cash rich Iran.   So the PA will presumably be the ruling power in the new state and maybe they will be in civil war with Hamas for awhile or more likely Hamas will see the wealth there to be stolen and make a deal.  It will take time for the IDF to physically remove the settlers and that might well lead to a civil war in Israel.  Either way it will be Israel which has to pay the greatest price for this peace.  

So let's say it takes a year from the date Israel finally accepts the deal.  The Palestinian ruling council or whatever they'll call their government will need at least that long to try to put together a group to rule and to begin to actually figure out how to govern.  Do you think that there will be no rocket fire from the newly acquired territory in that time?  And when this begins do you really expect the international community to deal with the Palestinians in any substantive way?  There is a history here P80.  We can look at how both the Palestinians and the international bodies have acted in past.  There is no reason to believe they will act any differently once Israel has been pushed back on it's heels and is in a near indefensible position geographically.  

You seem fairly confident that the world community would deal severely with such a breach and I feel otherwise.  There is no way to know for sure until the situation is a fait accompli.  What either of us think of it then will matter not at all but if I'm correct the people of Israel will be faced with a whole new threat.  It will be a threat they cannot live with and war will soon follow.  After being sold out so completely by the UN and even the US, don't expect them to be willing to listen to any new "peace" initiatives.  And you and I both know that the Palestinians everyone so wants to help will be by far the biggest losers.

 

 

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9 hours ago, and then said:

You're doing the same thing you accuse me of, priceless.  If you are paying attention, I will try again... What I'm saying is that quite soon your theory of giving peace a chance is going to be tested.  France is beginning to press an initiative that would cause Israel to give up all of the West Bank, to pull all troops from it and to vacate East Jerusalem.  Then the Palestinians will officially be recognized as a State.  In return the Palestinians would have to openly declare that Israel (what little is left by then) is the State of the Jewish people and completely and forever give up the right of return they claim.  Netanyahu has of course rejected it out of hand but Abbas (on his way out soon) is saying he's interested.  Hamas also rejects it out of hand.  Everything here seems to hinge on Obama's actions.  If he votes yes or if he abstains the US vote then the initiative will pass and the world will officially be aligned against Israel until that nation succumbs to the pressure and concedes completely.  You with me so far?  I have no idea, I admit, how Israel will initially react to this gambit.  My guess is that they will resist as long as they can and then bow to the pressure that will be placed on them through international economic boycott.  Keep in mind that while this measure will pass the UNSC under the conditions I mentioned, Hamas will STILL be in rejection of the measure.  I'm not sure what kinds of real economic pressure could be brought to bear on an entity that is funded by a cash rich Iran.   So the PA will presumably be the ruling power in the new state and maybe they will be in civil war with Hamas for awhile or more likely Hamas will see the wealth there to be stolen and make a deal.  It will take time for the IDF to physically remove the settlers and that might well lead to a civil war in Israel.  Either way it will be Israel which has to pay the greatest price for this peace.  

So let's say it takes a year from the date Israel finally accepts the deal.  The Palestinian ruling council or whatever they'll call their government will need at least that long to try to put together a group to rule and to begin to actually figure out how to govern. Do you think that there will be no rocket fire from the newly acquired territory in that time?  

Ofcourse there is a considerable chance this will happen. It is up to the Palestinians, Israeli's and the UN to be ready if and when such events arise. You cannot oppress a population for more than half a century and expect them to pacify completely and totally within the timeframe of 12 months. Lasting peace, facilitated by equal rights, two state solution, is worth the effort.

 

And when this begins do you really expect the international community to deal with the Palestinians in any substantive way?  There is a history here P80.  We can look at how both the Palestinians and the international bodies have acted in past.  There is no reason to believe they will act any differently once Israel has been pushed back on it's heels and is in a near indefensible position geographically. 

There is every reason the int community will offer support to both the newly created Palestinian state, as well as the Israeli's finally ending the illegal occupation of these people. You simply do not seem to be able to recognize the fact the behaviour of the Palestinians and int. bodies were dictated by the fact Israel was acting outside international law, robbing these civilians of their freedom, lives, future. Causality. Remove the cause, and the 'undesired behaviour' will change. Int. bodies probably sooner than the Palestinians, but that would mostly be because the former did not have the decades long literal hell on earth the latter experienced.

 

You seem fairly confident that the world community would deal severely with such a breach and I feel otherwise.  There is no way to know for sure until the situation is a fait accompli.  What either of us think of it then will matter not at all but if I'm correct the people of Israel will be faced with a whole new threat.  It will be a threat they cannot live with and war will soon follow.  After being sold out so completely by the UN and even the US, don't expect them to be willing to listen to any new "peace" initiatives.  And you and I both know that the Palestinians everyone so wants to help will be by far the biggest losers.

Again; you suppose a greater danger will arise if and when Israel grants these people their freedom, their right to a sovereign land, like they themselves demanded as a G*d given right. Therefor you would rather continue the crimes against these people, then to even give true peace a chance. Completely irrational, unethical, unChristian. The int. community acted the way it did, and does, because Israel is acting outside international law, AT. The world is not against Israel, or the Jews; it is against the crimes her present regime is perpetrating on a foreign people for over half a century. Its really quite simple, if not for all these religious zealots lost in some extreme eschatology seeing the world as an evil mass trying to destroy Israel and all she stands for. Seeing Israel as some holy body that cannot do any wrong in their eyes. This sort of irrational, present on both sides, is the reason the conflict has not been resolved.

 

PS. Almost forgot; still fail to see how I am advocating to continue an inhumane situation on grounds of what may possibly occur when that situation is relieved, like you. I do not however fail to see the irony in a student of Christ's teachings taking such a position.

 

 

 

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Once again your opinion of my statement of faith as probable hypocrisy is duly noted.  You do realize that while Christ advocates for peace among all humans he does not demand that anyone allow their families or friends to suffer while doing nothing, yes?  And were you aware, I wonder, that when he returns the verses are quite specific about him being in blood spattered garments?  It's also pretty clear about where that blood comes from P80.

2Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? 3"I have troddenthe wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. 4"For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come.…

I realize that many today either refuse to acknowledge God at all or they casually deny his existence as a fable but the odd thing is that some do that and still expect others to simply melt before their enemies because they DO believe.  Just an observation.  

So we will see when the day comes.  I note that as you are speaking of the oppression of the Palestinians and their being denied their God given right to a land of their own you ignore all the offers made to them that they rejected.  You are fully able to read the news from many sources and you cannot be unaware of the history of this problem.  I assume then that you chose a side you consider more just and lend an ear only to their words.  I admit that I spend less time following what Abbas and co. are saying because I've heard the same for about 40 years now.  Literally, 40 years.  The players change and the offers become a little more refined but always in the end it is the Palestinians who walk away.  I believe that they will be allowed to essentially do the same with this agreement.  No real reason to imagine things will change.  The difference is that they will first take what is offered and actually take up possession of the land.  According to your theory that should spell an end to incitement at least.  We should at least see the end of formal indoctrination of kindergartners and school children with an animal hatred of Jews, right?  As I said, we will see.  And when these Jews have probably killed each other for awhile over being pulled from homes and land they have spent a lifetime creating and the rockets STILL come... how long would you demand patience?  P80 it is the mindset you exhibit here that has followed the Jew for millennia.  I think the disconnect for those who are demanding these things is that on the one hand they know they can use force through sanction and boycott to cow the Israeli public but they don't understand that the great anger that will be generated while this process unfolds will leave that same public with no reserve of patience.  When the rockets fall, so will the dam burst against the Palestinians.  And Israel will not care what the world thinks then.  And probably never will again.

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Certainly there are other, very significant Israeli voices being raised in concern over the troubling direction of the current regime (or perhaps "junta" is more appropriate).  Here are recent comments by former Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Barak:

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"Life-affirming Zionism and the seeds of fascism cannot live together. The ousting of [Moshe] Ya'alon as defense minister should be a red light for all of us regarding what's going on in the government."

He then has the guts to say:

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"This government needs to be brought down before it brings all of us down."

The same article quotes another person, an Israeli military correspondent, as saying:

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"I grew up on Kibbutz Maoz Haim. I plowed fields next to the border with Jordan. They told me to go to the army and I went to the army and became an officer. I did reserve duty, I became a battalion commander and I fought in all the wars I was called to fight in. After this week, I feel for the first time -- because of the politics here -- that I'm not sure I want my children to stay here."

And:

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"The culture of our government does not give us space to breathe." Daniel blamed figures like Likud ministers Zeev Elkin (whom Daniel called a "type of Rasputin") and Miri Regev, as well as Lehava leader Benzi Gopstein, for the situation"

Ex-PM Barak: Seeds of fascism infecting Israel's government

So it seems clear that general alarm over rising fascism in Israel is growing...even among former members of the current regime.

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4 hours ago, hacktorp said:

Certainly there are other, very significant Israeli voices being raised in concern over the troubling direction of the current regime (or perhaps "junta" is more appropriate).  Here are recent comments by former Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Barak:

He then has the guts to say:

The same article quotes another person, an Israeli military correspondent, as saying:

And:

Ex-PM Barak: Seeds of fascism infecting Israel's government

So it seems clear that general alarm over rising fascism in Israel is growing...even among former members of the current regime.

Yet Likud keeps being given power - by the people no less.  As to those who bemoan the acts of the current government, it couldn't possibly be due to their desire to form a new one themselves?  I should remind you of Barak's attempt to give about 95% of what Arafat had said he wanted for peace.  Those who support the Left in Israel will eventually be the one's responsible for global war - you won't admit it of course but that won't make it less true.

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2 hours ago, and then said:

Yet Likud keeps being given power - by the people no less.  As to those who bemoan the acts of the current government, it couldn't possibly be due to their desire to form a new one themselves?  I should remind you of Barak's attempt to give about 95% of what Arafat had said he wanted for peace.  Those who support the Left in Israel will eventually be the one's responsible for global war - you won't admit it of course but that won't make it less true.

Ah yes...Likud so reluctantly holding on to the reins of power 'the people" just keep handing over to them!  Perhaps Israel isn't quite the bastion of democracy some folks think it is.

Even so, the propagandized left-right paradigm is no less false and destructive in Israel than it is in the US...and if anyone will be responsible for global war, it will be those dupes who ultimately fall for it.

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1 hour ago, hacktorp said:

Ah yes...Likud so reluctantly holding on to the reins of power 'the people" just keep handing over to them!  Perhaps Israel isn't quite the bastion of democracy some folks think it is.

Even so, the propagandized left-right paradigm is no less false and destructive in Israel than it is in the US...and if anyone will be responsible for global war, it will be those dupes who ultimately fall for it.

Care to expand on that bolded statement?  With something approaching facts not just opinion?  And while I agree with you to a point on the deficiencies of the Left Right paradigm I still think that people having a chance to participate and vote for leaders is the best deal going.  If you think of people as dupes for buying into parties which seem to reflect their outlook then I have to ask what you'd replace that paradigm with.

Change is coming, the French initiative and Obama's actions this year will assure that.  Those who expect Israel, Left or Right to leave their children defenseless in the face of continued aggression are in for a bitter surprise.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/30/2016 at 7:09 PM, Phaeton80 said:

Remove the illegal occupation, give these people their Palestine.. and Im sure the world will happily aid Israel in routing out any remnant extremist elements - hellbent on continuation of conflict - within Palestinian ranks. I have stated this before.

[/quote]

Well, that's certainly something to hope for, Phaeton80. However, do bear in mind that - in the past - Israel and the Jews have NOT had a happy experience of "the world happily aiding" them.

 

 

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Well, that's certainly something to hope for, Phaeton80. However, do bear in mind that - in the past - Israel and the Jews have NOT had a happy experience of "the world happily aiding" them.

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20 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, that's certainly something to hope for, Phaeton80. However, do bear in mind that - in the past - Israel and the Jews have NOT had a happy experience of "the world happily aiding" them.

 

Oh really. You were more or less given a nation, showered in assets across the board. The whole world was sympathizing with the Jews for their plight against the Nazi warcriminals. Now, after militarily occupying foreign land and oppressing a civilian population for all but a century - the last few decades that support is indeed waning. The everlasting victim card is hard to maintain while your state of the art military is used to stomp on these civilians, treating them like unwanted animals in an unwanted human zoo. Israel is effectively making it impossible for Palestinians to live where they were born, effectively robbing them of the right Israelians claim they were granted by Almighty G*d Himself. Effectively behaving very much alike their own Nemesis they love to lament.

Yes, that will have an impact on the support given by the global community. PR tactics only go so far. Ask the Germans. Hence; remove the illegal occupation and oppression; grant these people what you have demanded yourselves, and then we'll talk.

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Tel Aviv mayor says the occupation is a cause of Palestinian terror
Huldai tells Army Radio that Israel may be the ‘only country in the world holding another nation under occupation without civil rights.’

“On the one hand the occupation has lasted 49 years, and I took part in it,” Huldai told veteran journalist Ilana Dayan, “I recognize the reality and know that leaders with courage must look to take action and not just talk. The fact that we are suffering does not lead to a change in understanding of what must be done… There is no courage to do what needs to be done in order to reach a [peace] agreement.”

“There is no way to hold people in a situation of occupation and think that they will reach the conclusion that everything is okay and they will continue to live like that,” Huldai added.

Huldai’s comments come at a time when the occupation has all but disappeared from the Israeli public consciousness, and Palestinian violence is seen as senseless and random. However, they also harken back to a time when Israeli leaders and public figures were able to speak more frankly about what drives Palestinians to terrorism and armed struggle. Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak once famously stated that if he were a Palestinian of the right age, he would have joined a terrorist group. Alan Dershowitz wrote an entire book on why terrorism — and specifically Palestinian terrorism — actually made gains for the Palestinian cause, and was thus a rational, thought-out strategy. Saying anything to that effect in Israel’s current political climate is a recipe for suicide.

 

Edited by Phaeton80
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Some striking comments from the same source..

 

Quote

Vito

Thursday
June 9, 2016

In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act. – Orwell

So sad for the Palestinians, merely hinting at the truth in Israel/US is indeed becoming a revolutionary act. People are shocked, and lives are ruined and name calling starts “anti-semitic, Jew-hater, self-hating jew” justified by the usual bullsh!t about the security needs of the Jews against the “mighty and powerful” Palestinians.

 

Carol Scheller

Thursday
June 9, 2016

Will wonders never cease. I hope that Mr Huldai will continue to speak out in this way. And, as a former educator, that he will encourage the younger générations to become actors in the revolution of thinking and doing that is so sorely and urgently needed in Israeli society.Tair Kaminer has pointed the way.

 

Carmen

Friday
June 10, 2016

If only more elected officials spoke honestly, at least about this, instead of hiding behind the very worn out and tired 1929 massacre as their justification for the status quo. Nobody is safe under occupation and it will be fought against because it is morally and ethically wrong, as noted by almost every u.n. member (the exception being israel of course). Excellent article.

 

Ben

Saturday
June 11, 2016

“Ron Huldai shocked many Israelis Thursday morning”

It almost amounts to a cult. Basic elements of reality are strenuously kept at bay by large numbers of Israelis. To the danger of all.

 

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I look forward eagerly to the condemnation of so many here who are demanding that Israel give Palestinians all they demand.  It's a rigged game and they will never admit their error.  Even if every word I've uttered proves true, no one here will admit it.  There will always be a defender of the "poor Palestinians" as they run riot over an even smaller Israel.  As I watch this unfold it makes me angry but I know it's inescapable.  Ahh the glee that the new peace agreement will be greeted with.  

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If we would all be honest to eachother here, we would admit ourselves to take up arms if and when you and yours are oppressed the way the Palestinians have for more than half a century. The world has helped the Jewish people against their oppressor, now it is time to help the Palestinian people against theirs. Israel is an illegal occupier, oppressor of civilians. These are very simple facts, to which very simple behaviour from the victim ensues. Causality. You advocate prolonging an illegal / criminal situation for fear of what might be when these people are given back their land, freedom.. You hail from a Christian posiition while wielding prophetic interpretations in a passionate attempt to rationalize your so very unChristian position. You are no Prophet, and neither are those in your congregation you share your zealous views with. Oppressing civilians is wrong, no matter which way you twist or turn it. Strange times when followers of the Prince of Peace need to be reminded of that.

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3 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

If we would all be honest to eachother here, we would admit ourselves to take up arms if and when you and yours are oppressed the way the Palestinians have for more than half a century. The world has helped the Jewish people against their oppressor, now it is time to help the Palestinian people against theirs. Israel is an illegal occupier, oppressor of civilians. These are very simple facts, to which very simple behaviour from the victim ensues. Causality. You advocate prolonging an illegal / criminal situation for fear of what might be when these people are given back their land, freedom.. You hail from a Christian posiition while wielding prophetic interpretations in a passionate attempt to rationalize your so very unChristian position. You are no Prophet, and neither are those in your congregation you share your zealous views with. Oppressing civilians is wrong, no matter which way you twist or turn it. Strange times when followers of the Prince of Peace need to be reminded of that.

You refuse to recognize the validity of prophecy even though you have it unfolding before you daily.  What I'm saying to you, Phaeton80 is that your wish will be granted!  The Palestinians WILL get their state.  It's going to happen.  You are correct that I am no prophet and I challenge you to cite any post, EVER, where I made such a claim. One does not have to be a prophet to see what is unfolding though.  In fact as things pick up pace it will be evident to anyone with eyes.  France and the UN at some point - probably this year - will vote on making a peace plan mandatory for the two parties.  It will have components which are unacceptable to either side but Abbas will relent.  Hamas probably will not but the world will still demand that Israel comply.  Whoever is Israel's PM at the time will eventually also have to relent because no nation can really stand alone in today's world.  It will be then that we see which of us is correct in our versions of the situation.

 

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...And Then.. Israel will be all but destroyed by this new state called Palestine, left by the world to fend for herself (?)
 

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It will be then that we see which of us is correct in our versions of the situation.

I think I have only stated that continuation of a criminal act cannot be rationalised by what you think might happen after freedom is granted to the oppressed..  And that in case of an extremist element remaining within the Palestinian congregation - even after due time - the world will gladly help get rid of those extremists (without a righteous cause, which they do have at this point in time).

 

PS.

Quote

You refuse to recognize the validity of prophecy even though you have it unfolding before you daily

Some concrete examples would be helpful. And please, no open doors.

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On 6/13/2016 at 11:50 AM, Phaeton80 said:

...And Then.. Israel will be all but destroyed by this new state called Palestine, left by the world to fend for herself (?)
 

I think I have only stated that continuation of a criminal act cannot be rationalised by what you think might happen after freedom is granted to the oppressed..  And that in case of an extremist element remaining within the Palestinian congregation - even after due time - the world will gladly help get rid of those extremists (without a righteous cause, which they do have at this point in time).

 

PS.

Some concrete examples would be helpful. And please, no open doors.

Why bother?  Every example I've ever given has been "refuted" by some sage here.  I really don't care so much who believes and who doesn't anymore.  I guess the attitude is that a writing that is 3 or 4 thousand years old should give great detail in modern language of the precise timing of the event, otherwise it's ridiculous.  As to Israel being destroyed by Palestine, when the west bank is firmly in the hands of the Palestinians and the IDF is removed then the Palestinians will be free to simply pick up where they left off before the "peace" agreement.  It's what they have always done. The bonus for them this time will be geography.  They will possess all the high ground and will be able to target Ben Gurion and nearly all the industrial sites in Israel.  And when they do I expect lip service from the UN, if even that, and Israel being denounced for defending themselves with "force that is not proportional".  You don't seem naive to me Phaeton80.  All the French or Saudi plan is going to do is push Israel into a box from which their only escape is war.  

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So you use prophetic interpretations - by random individuals mind you - to rationalize the illegal military occupation & oppression of a whole congregation of civilians; and when asked to specify such prophetic content, you simply respond as you do here ("oh no one believes me, people will just refute it" etc etc). Thats weak sir, extremely weak. You cheer on the complete and utter destruction of the Palestinian people (yes, yes you do), the least you could do is lay out the fundament of that which you rationalize all this to yourself.

Maybe you should take a good hard look at your position and realize.. the Nazi's had their own 'prophetic' ideological narrative to rationalize their crimes against humanity ('we are the chosen race', 'the Jews are a threat to our wellbeing as a race' etc.. ring a bell?).

You're doing exactly thesame. No true man of G*d would defend the military oppression of any innocent civilian, no matter where they come from, what their skin color is, what religion he or she adheres to, or what they may or may not do in the future (??!). And no, Palestinians are not a single body of murderous monsters trying to murder as much Jews as they possibly can, however convenient such a ridiculous claim would be in light of your general position. You sir, and people like you (like the people dehumanizing Jews in the 1930'ies), are the reason crimes against humanity can foment, flourish.

Zealously defending a fascist, racist, supremacist, ultra national military oppressor the people of which were the very victim of a very comparable fascist group.. while dehumanizing a set of people just like the Jews were dehumanized. How times can change.

Edited by Phaeton80
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