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Universe expanding faster than expected


Waspie_Dwarf

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Why are we being spammed with: so many minutes ago somebody said?

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    I Love thinking about this stuff,   If i understand it very basically,  galaxies and solar systems and are kept in their relative positions (IN) expanding/inflating space? by local forces , predominately gravity? .... and on a smaller scale, matter is held together by other local forces ... (EM and such?)          .. but in each case space expands/inflates within and without everything?   Like adding water around objects within the water ..   the water expands/inflates  while the objects suspended in the water maintain their relative positions?

   and.. not all galaxies are moving apart,  Andromeda and Milky Way are moving closer together because of mutual gravitational attraction. ?    (local forces)

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15 minutes ago, lightly said:

    I Love thinking about this stuff,   If i understand it very basically,  galaxies and solar systems and are kept in their relative positions (IN) expanding/inflating space? by local forces , predominately gravity? .... and on a smaller scale, matter is held together by other local forces ... (EM and such?)          .. but in each case space expands/inflates within and without everything?   Like adding water around objects within the water ..   the water expands/inflates  while the objects suspended in the water maintain their relative positions?

   and.. not all galaxies are moving apart,  Andromeda and Milky Way are moving closer together because of mutual gravitational attraction. ?    (local forces)

I don't think gravity exists as a force.  I think it's just a result of centrifugal force and a secondary force.  Weak and strong forces are probably the same thing, and because of those three electromagnetism probably isn't a primary force either.

 

I don't know lightly, I haven't thought much about the water thing before, and it surprises me like something you said years ago about the amazing thing with the sun and moon looking exactly the same size from our perspective, which is oddly significant to think about with synchronicity if not God's will and everything.

 

Anyway, I guess it's mostly relative.  With time and everything, it'd make more sense for the milky way (us) and andromedae to slam into each other really fast, which you could see normally if you were watching outside at the right speed I guess or resonating at the right speed to see it that way.  Then all earthling existance would just seem insignificant, because it's just a blip and probably destroyed by andromeda, but it's not insignificant if you can remember what happened during that short time period..  It probably effected something permanent that is significant.  Unless earthlings survive the collision of galaxies, that would be cool, that we could survive through the merging of our two galaxies and go on for such a long period of time that there is no doubt to the significance of our species.

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I also just thought, pertaining to the Milky Way and Andromeda colliding.  Since, we are in the Milky Way.  It is just like the marriage Jesus keeps talking about in the Gospel and Revelation.  They are colliding, and it's like they are getting married and going to have a baby.  It's really a beautiful thing.  That these two galaxies, what was twain, becomes one.

 

Jesus keeps talking about the marriage, that is what it is all about, getting into the door of the wedding of the King's son.  Well, I guess our survival as a species then relies on the guidelines Jesus gave in Revelation and the Gospel of how to get into that wedding.  He told John on the isle of Patmos to tell each of the Angels of the Seven Churches certain things to do to prepare.

 

I really think we're screwing ourselves over because of how we've squandered our oil resources, and how are we supposed to get off the planet when we waste all our oil in vain circles to jobs and things that don't matter.  Well, God said in Isaiah, woe unto the nation when they run to and fro from place to place, because I'm going to utterly destroy those roads.  Also the parable Jesus gives of the 10 virgins, where the 5 wise ones filled their lamps with oil to get to the wedding feast, but the 5 foolish ones took their lamps with no oil, and asked the five wise ones for oil, but they told them, "No, if we give you half of our oil, then there won't be enough light for either of us to make it, so go to the exchanger and buy your own." So, the 5 foolish went and bought oil, the 5 wise ones made it in early, but when they five foolish ones took so much time, they made it late and knocked on the door to the wedding, but the Lord said, "I don't know you." and got locked out.

Well, it's all about oil, and we're almost half out of oil, so we're going to be out of luck pretty soon.

So, anyway, I think we should just somehow focus on making this marriage of Andromeda, and the Milky Way, jumping through the door with relativity.

 

The other thing I was thinking about, was that it just seems better to destroy ourselves with overpopulation, rather than by trying to restrict the population in breeding to save ourselves.  Mostly because if we just keep populating, things will follow darwin's idea of survival of the fittest, and we'll have the best people to rule the planet later on after the catastrophe.  If we limit ourselves, however, the elite are going to suppress us and get their way, and they've been inbreeding for a long time, and their offspring are just going to be weak and mess things up in failure later on, again.  So, it's better to just do things naturally, that was God's will anyway, to be fruitful and multiply, so that's the healthiest outcome.  It's going to have a catastrophe anyway, because we won't use our resources right.

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  I don't really know what i'm talking about .... i just have fun thinking.    Here's a thought that keeps re-occuring, about the expansion of space.   If all the energy/matter/space/time.. that ever was or will be ...  was contained in a "singularity"  and there can never be any more anything added to that original amount....  then,  there is no "new" space or time or energy or matter being created in the expansion ?

  There isn't  MORE  space being created?   the existing space is somehow still expanding ?    The original amount of  Everything is still becoming less dense?

   .. or maybe i'm just becoming more dense. ?   (lol)

Edited by lightly
attempt at humor
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If the universe keeps expanding, will there be a point where the size of the universe we have today will seem to be a singularity? :D

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10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

If the universe keeps expanding, will there be a point where the size of the universe we have today will seem to be a singularity? :D

  i dunno,  it's pretty big already.. but that's an interesting thought Die.  Relativity?  I have heard the size of the  "singularity"  described as possibly  being the size of a marble, then in time the description has become downsized to the size of atom..   or even smaller.   As if clinging to an idea of "it" needing to be some sort of physical object.   I've also heard "it" described , by physicists on tv,   as a super force  from which all forces separated ... which then caused all energy and matter?     All of this supposedly happened in less than a second? or within seconds?  after the BB?   


 

Quote

  Opus Magnus said:

I don't know lightly, I haven't thought much about the water thing before, and it surprises me like something you said years ago about the amazing thing with the sun and moon looking exactly the same size from our perspective, which is oddly significant to think about with synchronicity if not God's will and everything. 

      Yes Opus , exactly.    I think it is interesting that the Sun and Moon would appear the same size at the same time we evolved minds capable of wondering about it.

Edited by lightly
needed to fix something
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9 hours ago, lightly said:

  i dunno,  it's pretty big already.. but that's an interesting thought Die.  Relativity?  I have heard the size of the  "singularity"  described as possibly  being the size of a marble, then in time the description has become downsized to the size of atom..   or even smaller.   As if clinging to an idea of "it" needing to be some sort of physical object.   I've also heard "it" described , by physicists on tv,   as a super force  from which all forces separated ... which then caused all energy and matter?     All of this supposedly happened in less than a second? or within seconds?  after the BB?   

Take a marble, and look at it from the Moon. if you could see it at all, it would look like a pinpoint, right? Expand that out to look at that marble from Andromeda. Even more so of a pin point. Yet we know the marble is not a pin point because we are right next to it. If the universe expands infinitely, then in some near infinite time in the future, today's universe will look like that marble seen from Andromeda. Hummmm..... Such thoughts I have.....;)

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20 hours ago, DieChecker said:

If the universe keeps expanding, will there be a point where the size of the universe we have today will seem to be a singularity? :D

No

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14 hours ago, pallidin said:

No

      Very well put pallidin,   i think i might have to agree.    There was Nothing outside the singularity?     Whereas ,if we were  observing some future universe  from within it,  we couldn't then think of the small area of our current universe as being separate, or a 'singularity'. Plus, which direction should we look?   

       Singularity.  . . .  Universe.     both are All there Is .     the only difference being,  the difference?

  Singularity...   the state, fact, quality, or condition of being singular  

  Universe...  all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. 

       

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Assuming that

dark energy continues to make the universe expand at an accelerating rate, in about 150 billion years all galaxies outside the local group will pass behind the cosmological horizon. ( A cosmological horizon is a measure of the distance from which one could possibly retrieve information... is the maximum distance from which particles could have traveled to the observer in the age of the universe. It represents the boundary between the observable and the unobservable regions of the universe,) Similarly it will be impossible for events after 150 billion years, as seen by observers in distant galaxies, to affect events in the local group.[3] However, an observer in the local group will continue to see distant galaxies, but events they observe will become exponentially more time dilated (and red shifted[3]) as the galaxy approaches the horizon until time in the distant galaxy seems to stop. The observer in the local group never actually sees the distant galaxy pass beyond the horizon and never observes events after 150 billion years in their local time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cosmological_horizons

So it seems after 150 billion years all external galaxies 150 billion light years away will appear static in space and in time, if I understand correctly. Galaxies farther away will not long be observable, because it would take longer than that age of the universe for light from them to reach us.

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 What is  Space  anyway?    It's area can be crowded , like our atmosphere (or any physical object actually)  or nearly empty, with an occasional hydrogen atom floating about?    But, what the heck is space itself?   .. that it can "expand"?    Can a "vacuum"expand ?  can a "Fabric"  increase? can there be "MORE"  fabric?   If everything in the universe was contained within a "singularity"   That would be a finite 'amount'  .. right?

  so,  can finite become infinite?  

 please pardon my ignorance?   I hope these questions aren't too irksome for people actually familiar with what is 'known'.

*

Edited by lightly
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On 6/11/2016 at 2:23 AM, pallidin said:

No

On 6/11/2016 at 5:37 PM, lightly said:

      Very well put pallidin,   i think i might have to agree.    There was Nothing outside the singularity?     Whereas ,if we were  observing some future universe  from within it,  we couldn't then think of the small area of our current universe as being separate, or a 'singularity'. Plus, which direction should we look?   

       Singularity.  . . .  Universe.     both are All there Is .     the only difference being,  the difference?

  Singularity...   the state, fact, quality, or condition of being singular  

  Universe...  all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. 

Then can we say that the singularity at the beginning of the universe was even a singularity? Isn't that basically just a mathematically convenient assumption?

Using that definition of universe, the singularity would still be the universe, as it contained the whole of space and matter.

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 Yes, sounds right to me Die...   Aren't we taught that the "singularity" contained Everything that became the Universe? 

including all space and time?

   That would be a finite amount ... right?     But , it's still not completely agreed upon if the Universe is finite,  or Infinite ?

 Isn't there also some disagreement as to whether the Expansion is slowing, or expanding "faster than expected"  ??

   it's the old question of... the sky/universe must go on forever?   but can it go on forever?    And then there is the idea that space  "curls' back on itself, as so, is essentially circular?   ..  the periphery of a circle can seem to go on forever.  

I think the Universe is fooling us somehow...  it's size is an Illusion somehow?   I DUNNO.   fun to think about is all i know.

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19 minutes ago, lightly said:

 

I think the Universe is fooling us somehow...  it's size is an Illusion somehow?   I DUNNO.   fun to think about is all i know.

If time is an illusion, then must not distance be, too ?

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 i dunno Habitat,   but this guy thinks we may be wrong about the expansion of the Universe accelerating.

   http://www.livescience.com/33522-accelerating-universe-dark-energy-illusion.html

    Now, a new theory suggests that the accelerating expansion of the universe is merely an illusion, akin to a mirage in the desert. The false impression results from the way our particular region of the cosmos is drifting through the rest of space, said Christos Tsagas, a cosmologist at Aristotle University of Thessaloniki in Greece. Our relative motion makes it look like the universe as a whole is expanding faster and faster, while in actuality, its expansion is slowing down just as would be expected from what we know about gravity.

If Tsagas' theory is correct, it would rid cosmology of its biggest headache, dark energy , and it might also save the universe from its harrowing fate: the Big Rip. Instead of ripping to bits, the universe as Tsagas space-time envisions it would just roll to a standstill, then slowly start shrinking.

*****

In short, Tsagas' explains our observations of the expansion of space-time nearby and far away without invoking dark energy, or any other mysterious mechanism. According to Tsagas' work, the accelerationicon1.png of the universe in our immediate vicinity is caused by its motion alone. The universe beyond our region isn't accelerating outward; rather, it is safely rolling to a stop.

            ........     ^ This idea would go along with the notion that there was a finite amount of energy in the "singularity"   and  therefore the expansion of the Universe would be limited by how far that  finite  amount of energy could expand?      (would the energy somehow weaken as it dispersed? or would it draw energy from 'dark energy' somehow keeping it just as  energetic?

         Energy can't be created or destroyed,  only transformed?  isn't that what Mr. Physics says?

Which leaves me wondering how a finite amount could become an Infinite amount,  as in an 'infinite' Universe. ? and how space grows.  ?¿?

Edited by lightly
inflation
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The thought of the Big Freeze is really depressing to realize.  Although as it seems with most things in reality, which seems to have a horrible nature, there seems to be a fail safe of peace where we can breathe a sigh of relief and know we're saved from trouble.  I guess in this one the sigh of relief is death, that we can think about it, but don't actually have to go through it.  Everything will eventually die, and escape the dark reality.  I think this is God's grace and mercy.

 

I guess distance is relative, in one part to size.  If something is really big it moves great distances in perceptively no time compared to something small.  Like the comparison of an ant's view of the world, to a human's.

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7 hours ago, lightly said:

Which leaves me wondering how a finite amount could become an Infinite amount,  as in an 'infinite' Universe. ? and how space grows.  ?¿?

I don't think you will find many astronomers today who thinks that the universe is infinite. So far all indications are that the universe have finite mass and energy.

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22 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I don't think you will find many astronomers today who thinks that the universe is infinite. So far all indications are that the universe have finite mass and energy.

           ah,   thanks Not.   I know my ignorance has been showing,  I wish more knowledgeable types , like yourself, would chime in with little gems of information , but,  i shouldn't expect any one to explain it all to me in a short post or two.     thanks again.

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23 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I don't think you will find many astronomers today who thinks that the universe is infinite. So far all indications are that the universe have finite mass and energy.

My poor perspective:

I would think even though the universe has finite mass and energy, space itself that contains this finite mass and energy is expanding. Even though the universe has had only 13.8 billion years to expand, the farther away we look, the faster this expansion appears.

At some great distance from us, galaxies are receding from us much faster than the speed of light. So, though the universe has had only finite time to expand, the farthest galaxies from us have traveled farther than the finite age of the universe would indicate.

The distance to the edge of the observable universe is 46 billion light years. This is how far light can traveled in 13.8 billion years. Galaxies farther away than this distance we cannot see, because it would take longer than the age of the universe for light from these galaxies to reach us.

Whether the universe is finite or infinite I think no one knows, though personally I don't think an actual, physical infinity can exist.

 

 

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I think infinity makes theoretical sense, as in expanding outwards forever, because there simply isn't anything in existence.  I guess that makes more sense with the parable 'everything is nothing'.

 

Though, I find these ideas of infinity really depressing and actually causes pain to my soul.  I've found on repeated occasions, when I have this feeling, that it is because the idea is in error, not true, sand my mind doesn't like the idea of believing an error.  I think it may be because reality is in many more dimensions than 4 (width, depth, length and time).  With the extra dimensions, it means the universe should be expanding in many more directions than outwards.  That idea eases my mind and soul a lot on the idea, so I'm guessing there's a lot missing in the speculation of the universe simply expanding in only 4 dimensions.

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  • 1 month later...

Debate accelerates on universe’s expansion speed

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/debate-accelerates-universe’s-expansion-speed

A puzzling mismatch is plaguing two methods for measuring how fast the universe is expanding. When the discrepancy arose a few years ago, scientists suspected it would fade away, a symptom of measurement errors. But the latest, more precise measurements of the expansion rate — a number known as the Hubble constant — have only deepened the mystery.

 
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Observable universe is not all that there is and it ( observable universe ) could be only a tiny piece of the Universe. On larger scale - supposed expansion could simply be motion that we perceive as 'post Big Bang' effects.

 

The Ant ain't aware of the mountain - it perceive large stone as one.

 

 

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On 3 June 2016 at 10:09 PM, pallidin said:

For example, by some reputable estimates the "Big Bang" occurred 13.8 Billion years ago, or, let's just say 14 billion years ago.

Why 14? Why not 10, or 6, or 1,000,000 billion years ago?

There is NO answer. None, zip, notta, nothing.

Mostly, the reason for "no answer" is that we have no "causation" that might account for that unimaginable event 14 billion years ago.

We have no clue as to causation.

I know I am very late coming to this, but if we as a species had taken a billion or two more years to get to the stage of evolution we are at today, then the supposed 'big bang' would have occurred , in round figures 15 or 16 billion years ago.  Or conversely if we had got where we are today a billion years ago then it would be 13 billion.  It's all from our perspective.  I see nothing weird in the time scale.

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