Emma_Acid Posted June 28, 2016 #26 Share Posted June 28, 2016 On 6/2/2016 at 10:26 PM, and then said: The French and the UN and possibly now the US are set to invoke the world's censure of Israel if it does not give the Palestinians their demands. Once Obama embraces this so called peace treaty idea it will be all down hill for Israel. The prophet Daniel, writing of the man of sin (AC, son of perdition,etc.) says: He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." My intention is NOT to imply I know who the antichrist is. The words of the prophecy seem to imply that an existing agreement will be enforced by this person, however. This is the only agreement that is on the horizon which, when accepted, will be between Israel and the "many" (nations). The words seem to imply also that a part of the agreement will allow the Jews the right to build a third temple and begin sacrifices and offerings. Since this was written a couple thousand years ago and has never before come to pass I'd say that should such a situation occur then only the most dogmatic of deniers will still be able to ignore it. Well no, because it's a load of made up hooey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 28, 2016 Author #27 Share Posted June 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Emma_Acid said: Well no, because it's a load of made up hooey. Thank you for your contribution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma_Acid Posted June 28, 2016 #28 Share Posted June 28, 2016 1 hour ago, and then said: Thank you for your contribution. No worries. The sooner we stop trying to read "prophetic truths" into ignorant stone age texts the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted June 28, 2016 #29 Share Posted June 28, 2016 10 hours ago, and then said: When Israel is forced through sanction and boycott to acquiesce to most if not all Palestinian demands then the Palestinians, either PA, Hamas or some splinter group begins shelling from the high ground or blowing up buses, etc... If I'm still alive and present here at UM I'm going to take careful note of which individuals admit they were wrong about the motives of the Palestinians and which simply continue to make excuses for them. At that point there will be no fig leaf left to hide the haters from among those genuinely concerned with a perceived one sided injustice. If this comes to pass, then Palestine deserves all the repercussions afforded to any belligerent nation murdering and displacing innocents. I want the killing in Israel and the middle-east to stop, not simply for the aggressors to swap positions. Anyone who, in the event that this came to pass, celebrates the killing of noncombatant civilians deserves to burn alongside their lopsided motivations. Hatred must end through understanding and a cessation of aggression, not via the guns changing hands. 14 hours ago, and then said: That is a VERY good question, Podo. The answer is that I'm not sure how I'd react. My instinct would be to assume it was I who misunderstood but I have to admit that it would certainly make me question my faith in my knowledge of prophecy - not of God. Just to be clear, while Israel WILL be saved and possess all the land that was promised to them eventually, the "Great Tribulation" Christ spoke of will be a time of trouble for the descendants of Jacob (Israel) that is worse than at any time in their past or than any time in their future. The Holocaust took one in every three lives of Jews. The GT will take two thirds. Israel will be overrun and taken captive. Horrific things will be done to civilians there. A number will escape however and it is they who will be the survivors. So if you see an army come against Israel and destroy the IDF and take Jerusalem then don't imagine that that is the end. It's just the beginning of a really horrific time for Israel's enemies. I also appreciate you being respectful of my beliefs whether you believe them to be in error or not. It really is appreciated. I'm fully aware that Christian's believe things that sound absolutely ridiculous. The bolded sentence is the crux of why I can't take prophecies seriously. No matter what culture speaks them, the process is the same: prophecy says X, but X is vague, then X something happens that can be potentially attributed to X, but then the inevitable divine repercussion does not happen, so person decides that they clearly were wrong and that X really wasn't a prophecy after all. Whether you agree with me or not, do you see where I'm going with this? It just seems so...wishywashy. Now, as I've said, if a prophecy wasn't vague and instead said something along the lines of "on X date at Y time Z will happen" and then it does? 100% confirmation of prophecy, or some other kind of paranormal shenanigan is afoot. But the vagueries of ancient prophecy (not just Christian, anyone's prophecy) are universally vague enough that there is no real way to substantiate them being fulfilled, or even not being fulfilled. And, as a result of this vagueness, they are rendered somewhat irrelevant if one is not inclined to believe them for other reasons, such as adhering to the religion of origin. Your belief in your religion makes you predisposed to look for these patterns and see them where they may or may not be. The same goes with anyone, since humans are pattern-viewing individuals and we are really good at seeing what we expect to see. Where you see a shadow, I see a sasquatch. Where I see a run-of-the-mill international incident, you see a prophecy being fulfilled. It seems like pareidolia, but way more abstracted and zoomed-out. Does that mean it is wrong? I don't know, I'm not a deity. But I don't think that someone who does not see a prophecy's fulfillment in the same way that you do ("you" being anyone, not you specifically) is being willfully ignorant, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 28, 2016 Author #30 Share Posted June 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Podo said: If this comes to pass, then Palestine deserves all the repercussions afforded to any belligerent nation murdering and displacing innocents. I want the killing in Israel and the middle-east to stop, not simply for the aggressors to swap positions. Anyone who, in the event that this came to pass, celebrates the killing of noncombatant civilians deserves to burn alongside their lopsided motivations. Hatred must end through understanding and a cessation of aggression, not via the guns changing hands. The bolded sentence is the crux of why I can't take prophecies seriously. No matter what culture speaks them, the process is the same: prophecy says X, but X is vague, then X something happens that can be potentially attributed to X, but then the inevitable divine repercussion does not happen, so person decides that they clearly were wrong and that X really wasn't a prophecy after all. Whether you agree with me or not, do you see where I'm going with this? It just seems so...wishywashy. Now, as I've said, if a prophecy wasn't vague and instead said something along the lines of "on X date at Y time Z will happen" and then it does? 100% confirmation of prophecy, or some other kind of paranormal shenanigan is afoot. But the vagueries of ancient prophecy (not just Christian, anyone's prophecy) are universally vague enough that there is no real way to substantiate them being fulfilled, or even not being fulfilled. And, as a result of this vagueness, they are rendered somewhat irrelevant if one is not inclined to believe them for other reasons, such as adhering to the religion of origin. Your belief in your religion makes you predisposed to look for these patterns and see them where they may or may not be. The same goes with anyone, since humans are pattern-viewing individuals and we are really good at seeing what we expect to see. Where you see a shadow, I see a sasquatch. Where I see a run-of-the-mill international incident, you see a prophecy being fulfilled. It seems like pareidolia, but way more abstracted and zoomed-out. Does that mean it is wrong? I don't know, I'm not a deity. But I don't think that someone who does not see a prophecy's fulfillment in the same way that you do ("you" being anyone, not you specifically) is being willfully ignorant, either. So if tomorrow evening a couple of scud ballistic missiles were fired from Syria into an Israeli city, spread sarin gas and killed say 2 thousand Israelis, Netanyahu in turn, before dawn launched a nuke on Damascus, turning it instantly into a heap of ruins, you still would not believe in any prophetic fulfillment? I'd say that speaks more to a willful pride in your own intelligence than it does toward prophecy being unreliable. But to each his own. You (and most here) seem to expect that simple men of an agricultural background primarily could be expected to impart a message that specifies the names of modern cities and locations as well as the types of weapons that would be used. While I have no doubt they could have been instructed to write such things, no one in the intervening 2K years would have been able to understand it. As it is, all who have read it have understood what was coming, just not how or when. I will say this and be finished. If a scenario happens much as I described, with Damascus literally being made an uninhabitable heap of ruins overnight, those that deny the relevance of this prophecy will be confirming that the only god they honor is the god of self, of personal wisdom and human pride. Those elements have been a part of humanity's make up since the beginning and in all the long years since that beginning we have achieved a world today that is technologically more advanced than anyone can even conceive in it's totality. Alongside that accomplishment we also have starvation and disease rampant in places that COULD be cured but for the leaders there. We have wars growing in number and intensity and the threat of nuclear annihilation literally at the threshold, knocking. Christ said that when he returns, if he had waited any longer, there would be no flesh saved alive. That sounds quite prescient to me for words uttered two millennia before nuclear weapons were created. But if you still believe it to be too vague then I wish you the best in the times ahead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted June 28, 2016 #31 Share Posted June 28, 2016 26 minutes ago, and then said: So if tomorrow evening a couple of scud ballistic missiles were fired from Syria into an Israeli city, spread sarin gas and killed say 2 thousand Israelis, Netanyahu in turn, before dawn launched a nuke on Damascus, turning it instantly into a heap of ruins, you still would not believe in any prophetic fulfillment? I'd say that speaks more to a willful pride in your own intelligence than it does toward prophecy being unreliable. But to each his own. You (and most here) seem to expect that simple men of an agricultural background primarily could be expected to impart a message that specifies the names of modern cities and locations as well as the types of weapons that would be used. While I have no doubt they could have been instructed to write such things, no one in the intervening 2K years would have been able to understand it. As it is, all who have read it have understood what was coming, just not how or when. I will say this and be finished. If a scenario happens much as I described, with Damascus literally being made an uninhabitable heap of ruins overnight, those that deny the relevance of this prophecy will be confirming that the only god they honor is the god of self, of personal wisdom and human pride. Those elements have been a part of humanity's make up since the beginning and in all the long years since that beginning we have achieved a world today that is technologically more advanced than anyone can even conceive in it's totality. Alongside that accomplishment we also have starvation and disease rampant in places that COULD be cured but for the leaders there. We have wars growing in number and intensity and the threat of nuclear annihilation literally at the threshold, knocking. Christ said that when he returns, if he had waited any longer, there would be no flesh saved alive. That sounds quite prescient to me for words uttered two millennia before nuclear weapons were created. But if you still believe it to be too vague then I wish you the best in the times ahead. No, not in this case. Excessive violence between Israel and everyone around it has been pretty much a constant for thousands of years. New, more technologically-advanced violence doesn't seem like a significant change to me. It would be a tragedy, and an act of war, but it doesn't seem like anything mystical. The more I think about it, though, it's less about the fulfillment of a prophecy than the veracity of the prophesy itself. Would that scenario fulfill a prophecy from christian mythology? Maybe it would, yeah. But, I don't consider the prophecies of the bible to be anything other than the writings of ordinary, everyday humans who were either wrong or making stuff up. So, while one of the prophecies could in theory come about (since there are so damn many of them in there that statistically speaking, vague prophecies such as "something bad happens to Damascus" will inevitably come to pass), it doesn't really mean anything. Just like cold-readers can glean "impossible" information by asking the right vague questions, so too can prophecies be fulfilled by otherwise mundane events. In the same way you think I (and other non-religious types) am proud of my intelligence, it seems to me that you're irrationally devoted to the writings of a mythological epic. If your deity could have explained specifics, why would it have mattered if nobody understood it? Religion isn't about understanding, it is about faith. If they had the faith that so many religious types profess, they wouldn't need to understand it and probably wouldn't care that they didn't understand it, as long as they thought that they were doing the work of their idol. But, it didn't happen, nor has it ever. There has never been a prophesy that accurately or specifically predicts a specific modern event with enough detail to be anything else than speculation. As I've said before, the moment that changes then we'll talk. But until then, prophecies remain in the realm of tarot cards, cold-reading, and divination for me. If your deity decides to show up? I'm all ears. But personally, I'm hedging my bets on Ragnarok starting first. At least ending the universe in a fiery war against flame jotun is a more interesting way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 28, 2016 Author #32 Share Posted June 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Podo said: No, not in this case. Excessive violence between Israel and everyone around it has been pretty much a constant for thousands of years. New, more technologically-advanced violence doesn't seem like a significant change to me. It would be a tragedy, and an act of war, but it doesn't seem like anything mystical. The more I think about it, though, it's less about the fulfillment of a prophecy than the veracity of the prophesy itself. Would that scenario fulfill a prophecy from christian mythology? Maybe it would, yeah. But, I don't consider the prophecies of the bible to be anything other than the writings of ordinary, everyday humans who were either wrong or making stuff up. So, while one of the prophecies could in theory come about (since there are so damn many of them in there that statistically speaking, vague prophecies such as "something bad happens to Damascus" will inevitably come to pass), it doesn't really mean anything. Just like cold-readers can glean "impossible" information by asking the right vague questions, so too can prophecies be fulfilled by otherwise mundane events. In the same way you think I (and other non-religious types) am proud of my intelligence, it seems to me that you're irrationally devoted to the writings of a mythological epic. If your deity could have explained specifics, why would it have mattered if nobody understood it? Religion isn't about understanding, it is about faith. If they had the faith that so many religious types profess, they wouldn't need to understand it and probably wouldn't care that they didn't understand it, as long as they thought that they were doing the work of their idol. But, it didn't happen, nor has it ever. There has never been a prophesy that accurately or specifically predicts a specific modern event with enough detail to be anything else than speculation. As I've said before, the moment that changes then we'll talk. But until then, prophecies remain in the realm of tarot cards, cold-reading, and divination for me. If your deity decides to show up? I'm all ears. But personally, I'm hedging my bets on Ragnarok starting first. At least ending the universe in a fiery war against flame jotun is a more interesting way to go. Oh, I don't know. If you find yourself armed and arrayed among the combatants on the Plain of Esdraelon, being taken out by God on a white horse coming down from the heavens with a cavalry charge of millions could be pretty intense also Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted June 28, 2016 #33 Share Posted June 28, 2016 1 minute ago, and then said: Oh, I don't know. If you find yourself armed and arrayed among the combatants on the Plain of Esdraelon, being taken out by God on a white horse coming down from the heavens with a cavalry charge of millions could be pretty intense also Anyway, thanks for the civil discussion. Less interesting because we don't know what that would really look like. Whereas a flame jotun, according to the Eddas, look something like this: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted June 29, 2016 #34 Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Both Israel and Palestine treat each other like crap. They are both arrogant, that is problem. Edited June 29, 2016 by Mystic Crusader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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