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Is this the "Peace with many"?


and-then

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The French and the UN and possibly now the US are set to invoke the world's censure of Israel if it does not give the Palestinians their demands.  Once Obama embraces this so called peace treaty idea it will be all down hill for Israel.  The prophet Daniel, writing of the man of sin (AC, son of perdition,etc.) says:

He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." 

 

My intention is NOT to imply I know who the antichrist is.  The words of the prophecy seem to imply that an existing agreement will be enforced by this person, however.  This is the only agreement that is on the horizon which, when accepted, will be between Israel and the "many" (nations).  The words seem to imply also that a part of the agreement will allow the Jews the right to build a third temple and begin sacrifices and offerings.  Since this was written a couple thousand years ago and has never before come to pass I'd say that should such a situation occur then only the most dogmatic of deniers will still be able to ignore it.

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51 minutes ago, Midyin said:

That would be a strange change if the US did something that Israel didn't like...

It would go against the history of most of the last 45 years or so at least.  IF this really is the beginning of that "peace agreement", you ain't seen nothin' yet.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Why are you against the world stopping Israel from treating Palestinians like people? If a UN sanction stops the Israeli government from stealing more land from farmers, that's a good thing. The Israeli government is not inherently related to biblical stories, it's a modern government.

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7 hours ago, Podo said:

Why are you against the world stopping Israel from treating Palestinians like people? If a UN sanction stops the Israeli government from stealing more land from farmers, that's a good thing. The Israeli government is not inherently related to biblical stories, it's a modern government.

More like opposed to a "solution" that is doomed to fail and likely will end in further bloodshed. 

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20 hours ago, Podo said:

Why are you against the world stopping Israel from treating Palestinians like people? If a UN sanction stops the Israeli government from stealing more land from farmers, that's a good thing. The Israeli government is not inherently related to biblical stories, it's a modern government.

Oh goody, a strawman with a red herring in It's mouth.

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8 minutes ago, unclefred said:

Oh goody, a strawman with a red herring in It's mouth.

Point out where the strawman is. It's okay, I'll wait.

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On 6/2/2016 at 5:26 PM, and then said:

The French and the UN and possibly now the US are set to invoke the world's censure of Israel if it does not give the Palestinians their demands.  Once Obama embraces this so called peace treaty idea it will be all down hill for Israel.  The prophet Daniel, writing of the man of sin (AC, son of perdition,etc.) says:

He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." 

 

My intention is NOT to imply I know who the antichrist is.  The words of the prophecy seem to imply that an existing agreement will be enforced by this person, however.  This is the only agreement that is on the horizon which, when accepted, will be between Israel and the "many" (nations).  The words seem to imply also that a part of the agreement will allow the Jews the right to build a third temple and begin sacrifices and offerings.  Since this was written a couple thousand years ago and has never before come to pass I'd say that should such a situation occur then only the most dogmatic of deniers will still be able to ignore it.

Im not a christian but I was once a vicious christian apologist. Anyways despite my concrete conviction that the general gist of Christianity has been hijacked by mankind there is a good deal of knowledge hidden within those books. For me the only end times type prophecy which will cause some angst comes from Isiah 17 regarding Damascus being uninhabitable. 

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3 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Im not a christian but I was once a vicious christian apologist. Anyways despite my concrete conviction that the general gist of Christianity has been hijacked by mankind there is a good deal of knowledge hidden within those books. For me the only end times type prophecy which will cause some angst comes from Isiah 17 regarding Damascus being uninhabitable. 

Why Isaiah 17 and Damascus in particular Farmer?  Just curious.

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Every time I turn around someone is trying to claim the end is near. And here we still are. 

This has been going on since the supposed crucifixion. The followers thought he would return in their lifetimes. What makes you think you know? 

What's that passage...oh right...no one will know the hour. Everyone seems to forget that one, and everyone seems to be trying to interpret it as happening now (whenever now happens to be). 

It seems like peace should be something that spiritual people would want...not something they would view as heralding in the end of days. But religious people...I guess that's an entirely different ballgame. 

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1 hour ago, and then said:

Why Isaiah 17 and Damascus in particular Farmer?  Just curious.

That one has always stuck out to me because of Damascus' history as the oldest continually inhabited city in the world, meaning that particular prophesy FOR SURE hasnt been fulfilled . 

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2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

That one has always stuck out to me because of Damascus' history as the oldest continually inhabited city in the world, meaning that particular prophesy FOR SURE hasnt been fulfilled . 

Quite true.  The prophesy is also pretty clear that it will happen very suddenly:   14At evening time, behold, there is terror! Before morning they are no more. Such will be the portion of those who plunder us And the lot of those who pillage us.

The assumption is that said destruction will not only be complete, it will be literally overnight.  That sounds nuclear to me.

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20 hours ago, and then said:

Quite true.  The prophesy is also pretty clear that it will happen very suddenly:   14At evening time, behold, there is terror! Before morning they are no more. Such will be the portion of those who plunder us And the lot of those who pillage us.

The assumption is that said destruction will not only be complete, it will be literally overnight.  That sounds nuclear to me.

Not that I think these "prophecies" hold any water, but if it was nuclear, where would the terror come from? You wouldn't really have time to be afraid if a missile was launched at something as small as a city. The warhead would hit and then everything would be vaporized. If it was terror, would it not make more sense to be an earthquake? I remember hearing that Damascus is near a major fault line; an earthquake would create terror, and could completely destroy the city. 

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4 minutes ago, Podo said:

Not that I think these "prophecies" hold any water, but if it was nuclear, where would the terror come from? You wouldn't really have time to be afraid if a missile was launched at something as small as a city. The warhead would hit and then everything would be vaporized. If it was terror, would it not make more sense to be an earthquake? I remember hearing that Damascus is near a major fault line; an earthquake would create terror, and could completely destroy the city. 

Could be, I think the terror in evening and death by the morning could also represent poisoning from chemical or biological attacks, or it could represent the few survivors of a nuclear blast dying over the course of the evening (depending on the size of the bomb) 

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48 minutes ago, Podo said:

Not that I think these "prophecies" hold any water, but if it was nuclear, where would the terror come from? You wouldn't really have time to be afraid if a missile was launched at something as small as a city. The warhead would hit and then everything would be vaporized. If it was terror, would it not make more sense to be an earthquake? I remember hearing that Damascus is near a major fault line; an earthquake would create terror, and could completely destroy the city. 

Assad still (surprise, surprise) has many chemical warheads.  If any group gets one and launches it into an Israeli city there could be hundreds, even thousands dead.  FROM GAS  That would be the terror, the PM nuking Damascus in response could be the rest of the verse.  I'm fully aware that those who choose not to believe prophecy won't be swayed by any event.  That's your choice.  

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42 minutes ago, and then said:

Assad still (surprise, surprise) has many chemical warheads.  If any group gets one and launches it into an Israeli city there could be hundreds, even thousands dead.  FROM GAS  That would be the terror, the PM nuking Damascus in response could be the rest of the verse.  I'm fully aware that those who choose not to believe prophecy won't be swayed by any event.  That's your choice.  

The prophesy itself is what generally loses me, and not so much the events supposedly foretold. It's when the prophecies are so vague as to have things easily be shoehorned into them. For example, Tarot cards, cold reading, or anything by Nostradamus. If a prophecy stated, say, "X will happen at X time because of Y and Z," and those events came to pass, I'd give that particular prophesy more credibility. But, that's never happened. If that changes...well, we'll talk. Until then, the biblical prophecies are just a few of billions of other ones created by a thousand other religions, shamans, "wise men," and charlatans throughout human history.

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1 hour ago, Podo said:

The prophesy itself is what generally loses me, and not so much the events supposedly foretold. It's when the prophecies are so vague as to have things easily be shoehorned into them. For example, Tarot cards, cold reading, or anything by Nostradamus. If a prophecy stated, say, "X will happen at X time because of Y and Z," and those events came to pass, I'd give that particular prophesy more credibility. But, that's never happened. If that changes...well, we'll talk. Until then, the biblical prophecies are just a few of billions of other ones created by a thousand other religions, shamans, "wise men," and charlatans throughout human history.

Well that's something at least.  Most are of the never, ever, ever variety regarding prophetic fulfillment. I don't sit around looking for the world to "end" btw.  I do pay attention when things that have predicted a couple of thousand years seem to be falling into place.  Damascus is one.  The attack against a regathered Israel by a leader from the "uttermost north" is another.  My favorite though is this: Zecharia 12:3  

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zecharia wrote that about 2500 years ago.  Other than the leaders of small nations within a few hundred miles no one cared about Jerusalem.  Today it's the epicenter of the globe.  Europe and the US are burdened with trying to solve problems there.  Few nations on the planet are un-involved.  For a city that has no seaport, no natural wealth and no strategic value any longer, Jerusalem fits that prediction better today than it did when it was written.

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Revelations 9/12: "One woe is past."

Skeptic response: "That is why the terrorists chose 9/11"

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On 2016-06-23 at 10:21 AM, AZDZ said:

Revelations 9/12: "One woe is past."

Skeptic response: "That is why the terrorists chose 9/11"

But this is what I mean about vaugeries in prophecy. 9/12 could mean anything. Did it specify that this was a date? I highly doubt it, considering that the calendar in use today didn't even exist when the scriptures were written. Besides, America is one of the only country to format dates as mm/dd/yyyy, with most countries using yyyy-mm-dd or dd-mm-yyyy. Furthermore, date formats such as these weren't much used until digital technology became a thing, which the ancient absolutely had no comprehension of. These numbers could mean anything, anything at all, and any big event that vaguely corresponds to them could be declared as fulfilling this prophecy. Note, as well, that it's not even really a prophesy; all it does is state numbers and then make a super vague statement. The 11/9/2001 attacks conveniently fit the number, but so could a number of other things in the past or future. This doesn't even begin to take into consideration the millions of other prophecies from a thousand other cultures and mythologies, since Abrahamic mythology is only one of many. If you're going to accept that this tiny, vague statement was fulfilled during the trade centre fiasco, how do you address such things as all of the prophecies that objectively did not come true and/or were wrong?

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7 hours ago, Podo said:

But this is what I mean about vaugeries in prophecy. 9/12 could mean anything. Did it specify that this was a date? I highly doubt it, considering that the calendar in use today didn't even exist when the scriptures were written. Besides, America is one of the only country to format dates as mm/dd/yyyy, with most countries using yyyy-mm-dd or dd-mm-yyyy. Furthermore, date formats such as these weren't much used until digital technology became a thing, which the ancient absolutely had no comprehension of. These numbers could mean anything, anything at all, and any big event that vaguely corresponds to them could be declared as fulfilling this prophecy. Note, as well, that it's not even really a prophesy; all it does is state numbers and then make a super vague statement. The 11/9/2001 attacks conveniently fit the number, but so could a number of other things in the past or future. This doesn't even begin to take into consideration the millions of other prophecies from a thousand other cultures and mythologies, since Abrahamic mythology is only one of many. If you're going to accept that this tiny, vague statement was fulfilled during the trade centre fiasco, how do you address such things as all of the prophecies that objectively did not come true and/or were wrong?

First, I think AZDZ was making a little joke?  Obviously the text would not mention the names of countries which did not exist when it was written.  That doesn't mean those countries cannot be identified though.  Psalm 83 mentions a list of peoples whose lands bordered the kingdom of Israel at that time.  When you look at the people groups today you see that they primarily still inhabit the area bordering modern Israel.  IF Psalm 83 is prophesy, there is some dispute even among scholars, then we would see a conflict arise where a confederation of Jordan, Syria, S.A., Lebanon and Egypt would come against Israel in a combined attack.  According to the verses written by Asaph the seer, those nations would be utterly vanquished.  If Ezekiel 38/39 were to come to pass you would see a huge group of nations including Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya and several of the "stans" in the south of Russia coming as a group to "take a spoil" from Israel.  The book says Israel will be totally alone in that conflict.  No one to help her.  She will be supernaturally delivered in a way that even the unbelieving will have to admit is from God.  Either of those two scenarios are completely plausible today - leaving aside the Divine intervention.  All of the nations mentioned share one commonality - they are all Muslim in whole or part.  The bottom line is that a person who considers biblical knowledge to be a fairy tale or the superstition of weak minds will probably never admit - even to themselves - that the events they are watching unfold have anything to do with God.  I think that is why when Christ appears in the heavens as he is returning to the earth -   "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

They will mourn because they will finally be unable to deny His existence or His Godhood any longer.

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On 2016-06-25 at 0:56 AM, and then said:

First, I think AZDZ was making a little joke?  Obviously the text would not mention the names of countries which did not exist when it was written.  That doesn't mean those countries cannot be identified though.  Psalm 83 mentions a list of peoples whose lands bordered the kingdom of Israel at that time.  When you look at the people groups today you see that they primarily still inhabit the area bordering modern Israel.  IF Psalm 83 is prophesy, there is some dispute even among scholars, then we would see a conflict arise where a confederation of Jordan, Syria, S.A., Lebanon and Egypt would come against Israel in a combined attack.  According to the verses written by Asaph the seer, those nations would be utterly vanquished.  If Ezekiel 38/39 were to come to pass you would see a huge group of nations including Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya and several of the "stans" in the south of Russia coming as a group to "take a spoil" from Israel.  The book says Israel will be totally alone in that conflict.  No one to help her.  She will be supernaturally delivered in a way that even the unbelieving will have to admit is from God.  Either of those two scenarios are completely plausible today - leaving aside the Divine intervention.  All of the nations mentioned share one commonality - they are all Muslim in whole or part.  The bottom line is that a person who considers biblical knowledge to be a fairy tale or the superstition of weak minds will probably never admit - even to themselves - that the events they are watching unfold have anything to do with God.  I think that is why when Christ appears in the heavens as he is returning to the earth -   "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

They will mourn because they will finally be unable to deny His existence or His Godhood any longer.

As I previously mentioned, the prophecies are just too vague to really be credible. Writing what amounts to "something bad happens to Israel" is pretty easy to do, since all of its surrounding lands have been out for its head for as long as it has been a thing. Not exactly a profound statement, really.

Indulge me for a moment, if you would. What would you say if, for example, Russia does team up with muslim nations, declares war with Israel, facerolls it, and annexes it? Or gives it back to the Palestinians, or whatever. Or, maybe the Arab nations get sick of Israel, and decide to just **** it up and split it among themselves. Let's say that their efforts are successful. So, Israel is functionally gone, and/or is now a Palestinian-controlled state in its own right. Nothing magical happens, nothing biblical went down, and no deity comes descending from the sky to bugger the invaders. Would you take this to be evidence pointing to your prophecies being wrong, or would you decide that this instance was not the prophecy coming to pass?

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On 6/25/2016 at 0:56 AM, and then said:

First, I think AZDZ was making a little joke?

No, I was just quoting what a skeptic friend said when I asked them about that verse. It seemed in context at the time. Sorry.

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8 hours ago, Podo said:

As I previously mentioned, the prophecies are just too vague to really be credible. Writing what amounts to "something bad happens to Israel" is pretty easy to do, since all of its surrounding lands have been out for its head for as long as it has been a thing. Not exactly a profound statement, really.

Indulge me for a moment, if you would. What would you say if, for example, Russia does team up with muslim nations, declares war with Israel, facerolls it, and annexes it? Or gives it back to the Palestinians, or whatever. Or, maybe the Arab nations get sick of Israel, and decide to just **** it up and split it among themselves. Let's say that their efforts are successful. So, Israel is functionally gone, and/or is now a Palestinian-controlled state in its own right. Nothing magical happens, nothing biblical went down, and no deity comes descending from the sky to bugger the invaders. Would you take this to be evidence pointing to your prophecies being wrong, or would you decide that this instance was not the prophecy coming to pass?

That is a VERY good question, Podo.  The answer is that I'm not sure how I'd react.  My instinct would be to assume it was I who misunderstood but I have to admit that it would certainly make me question my faith in my knowledge of prophecy - not of God.  Just to be clear, while Israel WILL be saved and possess all the land that was promised to them eventually, the "Great Tribulation" Christ spoke of will be a time of trouble for the descendants of Jacob (Israel) that is worse than at any time in their past or than any time in their future.  The Holocaust took one in every three lives of Jews.  The GT will take two thirds.  Israel will be overrun and taken captive.  Horrific things will be done to civilians there.  A number will escape however and it is they who will be the survivors.  So if you see an army come against Israel and destroy the IDF and take Jerusalem then don't imagine that that is the end.  It's just the beginning of a really horrific time for Israel's enemies.  

I also appreciate you being respectful of my beliefs whether you believe them to be in error or not.  It really is appreciated.  I'm fully aware that Christian's believe things that sound absolutely ridiculous.  

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On 6/20/2016 at 4:07 PM, Podo said:

Why are you against the world stopping Israel from treating Palestinians like people? If a UN sanction stops the Israeli government from stealing more land from farmers, that's a good thing. The Israeli government is not inherently related to biblical stories, it's a modern government.

The Palestinians treat the Israeli's like scum.  You've got it a bit backwards.  The poor state of affairs with the Palestinians is all brought on themselves.  What this is doing is an attempt to prevent Israel from defending itself anymore.

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2 hours ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

The Palestinians treat the Israeli's like scum.  You've got it a bit backwards.  The poor state of affairs with the Palestinians is all brought on themselves.  What this is doing is an attempt to prevent Israel from defending itself anymore.

When Israel is forced through sanction and boycott to acquiesce to most if not all Palestinian demands then the Palestinians, either PA, Hamas or some splinter group begins shelling from the high ground or blowing up buses, etc...  If I'm still alive and present here at UM I'm going to take careful note of which individuals admit they were wrong about the motives of the Palestinians and which simply continue to make excuses for them.  At that point there will be no fig leaf left to hide the haters from among those genuinely concerned with a perceived one sided injustice.

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