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Duality of Islam


RavenHawk

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You can find links on the net that will (for example) say “Dozen reasons why Muslims should follow the Quran and nothing but the Quran”  (http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_(P1153).html) and others that will say “Why Muslims Must Follow the Sunna As Well As the Quran” (http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm), both with compelling Quranic support.  So who is correct?  This is just one example of the duality in Islam.  This creates some very strong opinions and vicious divisions.  But all can agree that the Quran must be followed in its entirety.  Is this correct or can Muslims pick and choose what they wish to follow?  For the Muslims here, how do you discern what the will of Allah is?

 Another area that reveals this duality is the grouping of the Surahs revealed to Mohammed while in Mecca and those revealed in Yathrib.  For the most part, the Meccan code is almost diametrically opposed to the Medinan code.  This brings up the concept of Abrogation (16:101 & 2:106 – one from each code).  But even this concept is hotly contested.  Some will go as far as stating that that is not what it says.  But if we try to ignore the concept of Abrogation for the sake of this argument, how do you Muslims reconcile the Meccan and Medinan without it leading to Jihad against Dar al-Harb?

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Please always respect the beliefs of other members - the bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. Several of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect the views of others; this means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. We must also ask that members do not use the forums to promote or 'preach' their personal spiritual beliefs to others.

The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is primarily aimed at discussing general topics pertaining to religion and spirituality, for skeptic vs believer style discussion and debate on the nature of spirituality themed topics please visit the Spirituality vs Skepticism board.

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First allow me to congratulate you on presenting the clearest point of confusion I have in attempting to understand this religion.  I recently finished a book on the diversity of opinion within Christianity on the most important topic in the modern Church.  It concerns the breadth of understanding of when the Church will be caught away to be with the Lord.  Examples were given where the same verses were quoted, sometimes with diametrically opposite conclusions.  To my dismay I realized that there are some today who call themselves by Christ's name who do not even believe he was resurrected.  Other's believe he would never allow his Church to suffer his Wrath spoken of in the book of Revelation.  Some believe the Church must go through this horrific time of testing designed specifically for the most willful in rejecting God's son.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND!  I am not opening Ravenhawk's thread to a dissection of Christianity's  inconsistencies or perceived shortcomings!  THAT would be unnecessary since nearly every thread here in some way already addresses this.

I mention these inconsistencies as evidence for my belief that in Islam, as in Christianity, men took what they considered to be a message from God and "elaborated" on it.  When two so divergent points of view are found within the same text, what other conclusion can there be?  It seems that one group demands purity and sees the traditions as "extras" that are unnecessary while others see them as crucial to unlocking the meaning of the text in specific life situations.  The duality found in the distance between Mecca and Medina however, seems like an exact opposite of the change in the message between the OT and Christ's new testament for believers.  I simply don't understand it.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 6/7/2016 at 4:49 PM, RavenHawk said:

You can find links on the net that will (for example) say “Dozen reasons why Muslims should follow the Quran and nothing but the Quran”  (http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_(P1153).html) and others that will say “Why Muslims Must Follow the Sunna As Well As the Quran” (http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm), both with compelling Quranic support.  So who is correct?  This is just one example of the duality in Islam.  This creates some very strong opinions and vicious divisions.  But all can agree that the Quran must be followed in its entirety.  Is this correct or can Muslims pick and choose what they wish to follow?  For the Muslims here, how do you discern what the will of Allah is?

 Another area that reveals this duality is the grouping of the Surahs revealed to Mohammed while in Mecca and those revealed in Yathrib.  For the most part, the Meccan code is almost diametrically opposed to the Medinan code.  This brings up the concept of Abrogation (16:101 & 2:106 – one from each code).  But even this concept is hotly contested.  Some will go as far as stating that that is not what it says.  But if we try to ignore the concept of Abrogation for the sake of this argument, how do you Muslims reconcile the Meccan and Medinan without it leading to Jihad against Dar al-Harb?

yeah,but  there's only one interpretation of their Qur'an.  Who was the man that would write for Muhammad? until he realized that Muhammad was a fraud? That man,he was exposing him and also gathering up a following . Muhammad was after him for what this guy knew and eventually the guy ran for safety to the stone in Mecca,tied himself to it hoping that by doing so his life would be spared,like a sanctuary thing.When the soldiers of Muhammad told him that they couldn't kill him because of where he was, Muhammad ordered/instructed them to do it, and they did... 

  I also discovered recently that  Muhammad was poisoned, by  a jewess woman. The Jewess woman's name was Zaynab Bint al-Harith..In the Sa'd,p.252 gives personal details of his death...It looks like  some thought that his wife Aiesha could have had reason to also, a lot of people had reason to do it, but this Jewess woman , she did it..

When Muhammad asked her what made her(the jewess woman) do this to him, she said that if he were a prophet he would not had died,it would not had harmed him, but if he were a king---- she would rid the people of him. How powerful is that ? Muhammad had slaughtered her family, as he did many, he killed her  after questioning her, but he too died from the poison.

In the Holy Bible, a prophet of God would never die from poisoning , especially if he didn't know he was being poisoned .

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What on earth makes you believe that prophets are immortal?

 

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On 07/06/2016 at 9:49 PM, RavenHawk said:

You can find links on the net that will (for example) say “Dozen reasons why Muslims should follow the Quran and nothing but the Quran”  (http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_(P1153).html) and others that will say “Why Muslims Must Follow the Sunna As Well As the Quran” (http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm), both with compelling Quranic support.  So who is correct?  This is just one example of the duality in Islam.  This creates some very strong opinions and vicious divisions.  But all can agree that the Quran must be followed in its entirety.  Is this correct or can Muslims pick and choose what they wish to follow?  For the Muslims here, how do you discern what the will of Allah is?

 Another area that reveals this duality is the grouping of the Surahs revealed to Mohammed while in Mecca and those revealed in Yathrib.  For the most part, the Meccan code is almost diametrically opposed to the Medinan code.  This brings up the concept of Abrogation (16:101 & 2:106 – one from each code).  But even this concept is hotly contested.  Some will go as far as stating that that is not what it says.  But if we try to ignore the concept of Abrogation for the sake of this argument, how do you Muslims reconcile the Meccan and Medinan without it leading to Jihad against Dar al-Harb?

Interesting. To reconcile the verses of the Quran,  surah's which are either meccan or medinian is not difficult. You have to realise the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years, each verse relative to contextual background including location, time and scenario in which a verse was revealed. This is called tafsir of the Quran and it is done by utilising hadith (sunna) of the prophet. So question of abrogation is clearly answered in the Quran itself as revelation starts in mecca and by the time Muslims are in medina the scenario changes. For example, during the period in mecca, the Quran withholds from commanding the Muslims to fight, but later when in medina, the Quran commands the Muslims to fight. The explanation here is that during the time in mecca the Muslims were under the subjugation of the polytheistic meccan. Consistently tortured, harassed, murdered ridiculed etc, Allah did not command the Muslims to fight back but rather be patient and bare the pain in promise that your circumstances will change and one day the tables will turn. Plus it was clearly not within the capacity of the Muslims to fight back, they were outnumbered, weak, mainly those who joined Muhammed were the poor etc, they wanted to fight back but were commanded to remain patient. Many died and many migrated to Ethiopia. For approximately 13 years Muslims patiently stood quiet in front of persecution, torture, ridicule,  boycott and murder, the first of the martyrs being a woman.

Eventually the Muslims were driven out mecca and had to migrate to medina where they were accepted and Muhammed and islam became the first the 1St Islamic state.  Now the verses change, now that the Muslims have a state and have numbers and resources. Legislative verses were revealed, verse of how to conduct warfare and that code of conduct, verses related to economic principles,  scientific phenomena etc, etc. Now Allah is telling his prophet how to shape his state and how to defend it. Now the Muslims are commanded to fight back and even take the fight to the opposition to gain what they lost, their homes,  their city and sanctuary. This context is provided through hadith an historical account of his entire life in detail. Hadith forms the back bone of the Quran because Muhammad was the walking, talking Quran in practice, just like Jesus was the walking talking Gospel in action. When Muhammad received revelation, he had scribes who wrote it down when he recited the verses and others memorised them. Muhammed would then elaborate and explain the verses, that is hadith, his words and they are very easily distinguished from the Quranic Arabic, he had separate scribes who wrote his words down his sunna, and others memorised them too, two separate groups assigned to the Quran and his words. Hadith also encompasses observations of Muhammed and actions, words,  behaviour, practises etc etc. Yes there are fabricated hadith, but hadith is a science if it's own and methodical at separating the truth (sahih hadith) and fabricated lies (zaif hadith). 

 

Hope that helps 

1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

yeah,but  there's only one interpretation of their Qur'an.  Who was the man that would write for Muhammad? until he realized that Muhammad was a fraud? That man,he was exposing him and also gathering up a following . Muhammad was after him for what this guy knew and eventually the guy ran for safety to the stone in Mecca,tied himself to it hoping that by doing so his life would be spared,like a sanctuary thing.When the soldiers of Muhammad told him that they couldn't kill him because of where he was, Muhammad ordered/instructed them to do it, and they did... 

  I also discovered recently that  Muhammad was poisoned, by  a jewess woman. The Jewess woman's name was Zaynab Bint al-Harith..In the Sa'd,p.252 gives personal details of his death...It looks like  some thought that his wife Aiesha could have had reason to also, a lot of people had reason to do it, but this Jewess woman , she did it..

When Muhammad asked her what made her(the jewess woman) do this to him, she said that if he were a prophet he would not had died,it would not had harmed him, but if he were a king---- she would rid the people of him. How powerful is that ? Muhammad had slaughtered her family, as he did many, he killed her  after questioning her, but he too died from the poison.

In the Holy Bible, a prophet of God would never die from poisoning , especially if he didn't know he was being poisoned .

Wow!!  So off the mark. See when you don't have much knowledge about Islam it is easy to base such narrative as above entirely of fabricated lies and some of them maybe sourced in hadith, but known to most academics Muslim or not as weak hadith (zaif hadith). Your whole account in paragraph one is false,  the second and third paragraphs are speculation based on weak hadith. 

However the final paragraph really cuts the mustard. Prophets do die,  Muhammed never claimed to be anything divine but a man and a simple messenger of God. He was born naturally as we all are (besides Jesus) and he died a natural death as we all will (including Jesus). All humans die, when he died his close companions could not accept it especially his friend Umar. He was willing to kill people who said and confirmed his death until he heard the words of Abu Bakr Sidique,  Muhammeds oldest friend and companion say "those who worship Muhammad let them know he is dead!  But Allah is the ever living and eternal" at which point umar drops to his knees full of sorrow and accepts that Muhammad had died and only Allah is worthy of worship. You see we don't worship Muhammed or any man or any man God, demi gods etc,  we only worship Allah (God). 

 

 

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So he is telling one group of his followers to eradicate the others?  If all three Abrahamic faiths worship the same entity then...Why on earth would he do such a thing?  

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Come on guys .... all religions have their ups and downs, their highs and lows, their truth and hypocracies . 

 

One could point out that the first crusades were a total ferocious frenzied hate fulled blood bath - against other Christians

....   not to mention the Catholic / Protestant wars.   

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17 hours ago, Khanivore said:

Interesting. To reconcile the verses of the Quran,  surah's which are either meccan or medinian is not difficult. You have to realise the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years, each verse relative to contextual background including location, time and scenario in which a verse was revealed. This is called tafsir of the Quran and it is done by utilising hadith (sunna) of the prophet. So question of abrogation is clearly answered in the Quran itself as revelation starts in mecca and by the time Muslims are in medina the scenario changes. For example, during the period in mecca, the Quran withholds from commanding the Muslims to fight, but later when in medina, the Quran commands the Muslims to fight. The explanation here is that during the time in mecca the Muslims were under the subjugation of the polytheistic meccan. Consistently tortured, harassed, murdered ridiculed etc, Allah did not command the Muslims to fight back but rather be patient and bare the pain in promise that your circumstances will change and one day the tables will turn. Plus it was clearly not within the capacity of the Muslims to fight back, they were outnumbered, weak, mainly those who joined Muhammed were the poor etc, they wanted to fight back but were commanded to remain patient. Many died and many migrated to Ethiopia. For approximately 13 years Muslims patiently stood quiet in front of persecution, torture, ridicule,  boycott and murder, the first of the martyrs being a woman.

Eventually the Muslims were driven out mecca and had to migrate to medina where they were accepted and Muhammed and islam became the first the 1St Islamic state.  Now the verses change, now that the Muslims have a state and have numbers and resources. Legislative verses were revealed, verse of how to conduct warfare and that code of conduct, verses related to economic principles,  scientific phenomena etc, etc. Now Allah is telling his prophet how to shape his state and how to defend it. Now the Muslims are commanded to fight back and even take the fight to the opposition to gain what they lost, their homes,  their city and sanctuary. This context is provided through hadith an historical account of his entire life in detail. Hadith forms the back bone of the Quran because Muhammad was the walking, talking Quran in practice, just like Jesus was the walking talking Gospel in action. When Muhammad received revelation, he had scribes who wrote it down when he recited the verses and others memorised them. Muhammed would then elaborate and explain the verses, that is hadith, his words and they are very easily distinguished from the Quranic Arabic, he had separate scribes who wrote his words down his sunna, and others memorised them too, two separate groups assigned to the Quran and his words. Hadith also encompasses observations of Muhammed and actions, words,  behaviour, practises etc etc. Yes there are fabricated hadith, but hadith is a science if it's own and methodical at separating the truth (sahih hadith) and fabricated lies (zaif hadith). 

 

Hope that helps 

Wow!!  So off the mark. See when you don't have much knowledge about Islam it is easy to base such narrative as above entirely of fabricated lies and some of them maybe sourced in hadith, but known to most academics Muslim or not as weak hadith (zaif hadith). Your whole account in paragraph one is false,  the second and third paragraphs are speculation based on weak hadith. 

However the final paragraph really cuts the mustard. Prophets do die,  Muhammed never claimed to be anything divine but a man and a simple messenger of God. He was born naturally as we all are (besides Jesus) and he died a natural death as we all will (including Jesus). All humans die, when he died his close companions could not accept it especially his friend Umar. He was willing to kill people who said and confirmed his death until he heard the words of Abu Bakr Sidique,  Muhammeds oldest friend and companion say "those who worship Muhammad let them know he is dead!  But Allah is the ever living and eternal" at which point umar drops to his knees full of sorrow and accepts that Muhammad had died and only Allah is worthy of worship. You see we don't worship Muhammed or any man or any man God, demi gods etc,  we only worship Allah (God). 

 

 

You say the Quran was revealed to suit the place, time and circumstances so it was a book of it's time and not for all time and has no relevance in today,s world. 

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13 hours ago, and then said:

So he is telling one group of his followers to eradicate the others?  If all three Abrahamic faiths worship the same entity then...Why on earth would he do such a thing?  

HE wouldn't... False Prophets would... :(

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On 6/7/2016 at 1:49 PM, RavenHawk said:

But all can agree that the Quran must be followed in its entirety.  Is this correct or can Muslims pick and choose what they wish to follow?  For the Muslims here, how do you discern what the will of Allah is?

I'm not a Muslim, but from those I have communicated with, I believe that all believe the Quran to be the Pure Word of God. It is only when someone decides what specific texts mean, or use the Hadiths to say what specific texts mean, where they can decide whether to be peaceable, or violent. Many "peaceful" Muslims have to put a real "spin" on the wording in some cases to avoid the need for physical violence. They will often say that what is called for is spiritual war, or spiritual punishments, not physical war or punishments. Though what ever those punishments might be, it would seem they mirror the Christian rant of, "You're going to Hell!". But, then at least they aren't violent, right?

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11 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

You say the Quran was revealed to suit the place, time and circumstances so it was a book of it's time and not for all time and has no relevance in today,s world. 

<coff coff >  Bible  ? 

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

<coff coff >  Bible  ? 

'Bible' are you sure you're on the right thread?

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The criticisms here also apply to other religions and scriptures, not just Islam  - That's my point.

Edited by back to earth
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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

The criticisms here also apply to other religions and scriptures, not just Islam  - That's my point.

No it's not the thread is about a specific part of Islam and my post could only relate to Islam if you understood the subject you'd have realized that, you might very well have a good point relating to the bible i might very well agree with it why don't you start a thread.

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14 hours ago, Khanivore said:

Interesting. To reconcile the verses of the Quran,  surah's which are either meccan or medinian is not difficult.  <rest of post #6 clipped for brevity>

It doesn’t answer the main question, although, it is a start.  It doesn’t present anything new that I didn’t already know but it does provide new insight which provides a path to follow.  For that thank you.  But there are two things here that must be historically corrected. 

The first is that Islam does not acknowledge why the early Muslims were harassed and ridiculed.  It has always painted them as the victim.  Mecca at the time was an open and tolerant city to all religions and beliefs.  It initially accepted Mohammed’s teachings until he and his followers started insulting others, disrupting other’s practices, and destroying their idols.  They earned the ire of the people and rightfully so.  You don’t go p***ing in people’s sandbox and not expect a reaction.  Were there not better ways? 

Jesus taught a less arrogant way and for 600 years it spread in the known world without casting insult on the indigenous.  It ultimately defeated (if you will) the greatest nation at the time without the sword.  Now if you want to state that Allah was teaching the Muslims longsuffering and patience, that would be one thing but don’t claim persecution as if they were the victim.

The other was that they were driven out of Mecca.  Ultimately, yes that is what happened but only after Mohammed had received an invitation from the elders of Yathrib to end their civil war.  Yes, that is a minor point but one that needed to be stated.

Now as far as the tafsir of the Quran, I had envisioned it not as a progression as you stated but something more in line with the Old and New Testaments.  Christians really follow only the New.  The Old establishes the back story of the culture Jesus was a part of so that we can understand his message.  Jesus Abrogates the old law and he takes it upon himself and replaces it with a new law.  So I always considered the Meccan Surahs like the Old Testament and the Medinan like the New.

But you are actually saying that it is a planned progression, say from the larvae/cocoon state to the butterfly.  Instead of an unveiling of events over time in the Torah, it’s more like macro-management.  And I see that way quite clearly.  But that raises more questions and establishes old concerns.  The Meccan is the cocoon stage and the Medinan is the butterfly stage.  So you are saying that by the time of Mohammed’s death, Islam as a faith had reached its fullest incarnation.  There would be no more tafsir.  Am I in the neighborhood?

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