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SETI Eavesdrops on Nearby Star


Anomalocaris

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On 6/24/2016 at 0:16 AM, Nnicolette said:

Why are they still wrapped up in the idea that aliens would transmit radio signals? Absurd and pointless way to search! Whos to assume they would even have ears?

What does SETI's searching for radio signals from extraterrestrials have to do with whether or not extraterrestrials have ears or not?  I'm totally confused as to how one relates to the other.  

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4 minutes ago, JesseCuster said:

What does SETI's searching for radio signals from extraterrestrials have to do with whether or not extraterrestrials have ears or not?  I'm totally confused as to how one relates to the other.  

I think she was thinking of radio signals as the radio we listen to via AM/FM.  

I'd give her a break, honest mistake.  

 

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35 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think she was thinking of radio signals as the radio we listen to via AM/FM.  

I'd give her a break, honest mistake.  

 

Criticising SETI because they are listening out for potential ET radio signals because that assumes that aliens have ears that they use to listen to radio broadcasts isn't an honest mistake.  It's wilful ignorance of the subject not an honest mistake.

It makes as much sense as me criticising her idea of looking out for anomalous heat signals instead as assuming that she assumes that aliens can see infrared radiation.  It just makes no sense in context.

Edited by JesseCuster
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5 minutes ago, JesseCuster said:

Criticising SETI because they are listening out for potential ET radio signals because that assumes that aliens have ears that they use to listen to radio broadcasts isn't an honest mistake.  It's wilful ignorance of the subject not an honest mistake.

It makes as much sense as me criticising her idea of looking out for anomalous heat signals instead as assuming that she assumes that aliens can see infrared radiation.  It just makes no sense in context.

I disagree.   I can see where someone would see "radio signal" and think it was AM/FM.   Just like if someone heard "heat signal" and thought the feeling of heat.

Not saying it is the most intuitive train of thought, but understandable.   Unless she has a history of twisting stuff around.

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

I disagree.   I can see where someone would see "radio signal" and think it was AM/FM.   Just like if someone heard "heat signal" and thought the feeling of heat.

Not saying it is the most intuitive train of thought, but understandable.   Unless she has a history of twisting stuff around.

She criticized SETI in her first post with this garbage

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Why are they still wrapped up in the idea that aliens would transmit radio signals? Absurd and pointless way to search! Whos to assume they would even have ears

then went on to say she knew all about them because she lived near the facility yet it is obvious she never bothered to even look at their site and read their mission statement, hence, willful ignorance.

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What are Radio Waves?

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Hertzian Waves: Radio Wavelength Light

 

In 1886, when Heinrich Hertz proved that he could generate and receive a kind of invisible light in wavelengths longer (well below) infrared wavelengths, these became known as Hertzian Waves. Hertzian Waves were so long that they could be modified to carry smaller, man-made signals along them -- a application of his discovery that Hertz never considered, but many others, like Nikola Tesla, did.

 

A signal, in the form of squiggles of smaller peaks and troughs, can be fit into the distance between a peak to another peak in a Hertzian wave. The longest waves are like cargo trains: an encyclopedia of details about the source can be packed between their distant peaks.

 

Quickly, Hertzian Waves were used alongside wires in new communications technologies called the “radiophone,” “radiotelegraphy,” and “radiograms.” For the increasing number of everyday users of these technologies, the prefix “radio” fell into casual speech until eventually it came to describe the waves themselves. Anything that was radiating wireless transmissions was described as using “radio waves.”

 

Antenna broadcasting stations still use the incredible length of long radio waves to carry their complex music and spoken word signals. The waves make no sound, however; they only carry a sound signal on them. Your radio receiver extracts the signal and sends it to a speaker where the signal’s alternating peaks and troughs vibrate magnets that pulse the air and create sound waves in it.

 

In truth, all light waves act like cosmic couriers, carrying bundles of information away from every radiating source.  Telescopes and their sophisticated receiving equipment, be they spectroscopic cameras or supercooled receivers, extract the data bundles from waves of every length and frequency.

https://public.nrao.edu/radioastronomy/hidden-universe

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9 hours ago, Mangoze said:

It's also worth pointing out that we use radio waves for all sorts of applications and communications that don't originate or end up as sound signals and therefore have nothing to do with the existence of ears.  Radio waves whether it's via satellites, broadcast towers, cellphone networks, etc. are used to send all sorts of weird and wonderful non-audio information.  Text messages, emails, photographs, webpages, etc. are sent and received via cellphone and WiFi networks that use modulated radio signals.  Terrestrial and satellite TV broadcast video signals using radio waves.  GPS uses radio signals.  All of the photographs and scientific data sent back from space probes and rovers like Rosetta, Dawn, New Horizons, LRO, MRO, Opportunity, Curiosity, etc. is sent via radio waves.  Commands sent to them to tell them what to do are sent via radio signals.  Voyager is still sending back radio signals with information on conditions like the solar wind, interstellar wind, etc. on the edge of the solar system and beyond. 

These aren't what SETI is looking for but it's to show that radio communications in absolutely no way implies that it's used for modulating a signal that originated as sound waves and needs to be converted back into sound waves and listened to via ears.  

Nnicolette's objections are like seeing a person walking through a field with a metal detector and criticising them because the person must assume that artificial items must exist in the field and that if it exists it must all be made of metal.  Nope.  The treasure hunter knows there might be nothing in the field and he knows that there might be buried treasure that his metal detector can't detect.  And he might well be wasting his time and find nothing apart from the inevitable pieces of worthless junk.   But would it make sense to criticise him because his metal detector can't ancient pottery or diamonds or stone statues or other non-metallic potential buried treasures?  As if he doesn't know that those things might exist and the technology he's using won't find them?  Of course it wouldn't.  He's well aware of the pros and cons of his methodology.  

Edited by JesseCuster
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13 hours ago, Myles said:

Unless she has a history of twisting stuff around.

Not twisting stuff around.  Just butting into threads like a lot of other regulars on these forums with objections and criticisms of various scientific topics that generally are borne out of a complete lack of understanding of what they're criticising.  Like I said, wilful ignorance.  Don't bothered reading up on the subject, just imagine up an objection or criticism based upon a lack of understanding and information about the subject at hand, that they think scientists haven't thought of and blurt it out.

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On 6/27/2016 at 9:46 AM, PersonFromPorlock said:

Very true, but there are still radar systems that fit my description; the low-powered and frequency-agile systems won't be seen, but what is seen, if it's radar, will be easy enough to identify as a product of technology.

True. But the only RADAR systems that really fit this description would be the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) and they also employ frequency hopping as part of their anti-jamming efforts. And even those guys would only be detectable out to a range of ~200 light years. Those are some of the most powerful emitters we have on Earth that emit directed energy out into space.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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On 6/30/2016 at 0:53 PM, Hammerclaw said:

All SETI is capable of detecting are intelligent communicating species at approximately our level of technological development.

I would disagree, but I naturally could be wrong. If radio communication turns out to the best way of communicating/radar/ect. across the vacuum of space then their technological level wouldn't really matter. They would most assuredly still use it in my honest opinion.

On 6/30/2016 at 0:53 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Of course, that's based on the assumption such species exist. At this point in time there is absolutely no evidence they do. Intellectual rationalizations are not themselves evidence, however logical and reasonable they may seem.

Totally agree.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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On 6/27/2016 at 8:34 PM, Nnicolette said:

Well personally i am not sure what types of technologies are available in the search but i would look for a similar climate and magnetosphere to earth and look for signatures we are familar with like oxygen, methane, water... Perhaps a high powered heat sensitive telescope that can catch any heat anomalies. I dont know though what i would do isnt really relevant to the fact that its a far reaching assumption expecting radio signals. They definitely are going for evolved expecting radio waves though and a distinguishable contact. It makes me wonder if nikola's contact rumor had creedence. keep looking :)

I agree with you, I would look for that too. Unfortunately we do not have the technological means yet to engage on a search on exoplanets exhibiting the same traits as Earth has. All we can so far do is to detect whether a planet is within the goldilocks zone  and a rough estimate of size. Climate and other planetary characteristics are still out of our reach, unfortunately. So the best we can currently do is to direct "the big ears" out into space and see if we hear anything. The good thing is that now that we get more and more exoplanets we can more efficient points said "ears".

Cheers,
Badeskov

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1 hour ago, badeskov said:

I would disagree, but I naturally could be wrong. If radio communication turns out to the best way of communicating/radar/ect. across the vacuum of space then their technological level wouldn't really matter. They would most assuredly still use it in my honest opinion.

Totally agree.

Cheers,
Badeskov

There are more efficient means of communicating with the electromagnetic spectrum, lasers, for instance, and perhaps other sophistications we've yet to achieve. There may be only a small window of opportunity to detect nascent technological species, spilling their guts to the stars, as we do, presently. Who knows? There may be a very good reason not to. Perhaps only naïve species build transmitters for all to hear. Maybe what we're doing is analogous to primitive savages, oblivious to radio, listening for the sound of drums in the starry night.

Edited by Hammerclaw
clarity
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I have "Face Book " I talk to Aliens every day, And They all say the same ,old Same Old ! It`s too Hot, I dont get paid enough, My Butt itches, Well Get up out of that  chair and Go out side for a walk  Guys ! E.T`s are just Like Us Lost in time, Lost in Space. Looking For Love in all the Wrong Places !:)

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On 30.6.2016 at 9:53 PM, Hammerclaw said:

All SETI is capable of detecting are intelligent communicating species at approximately our level of technological development.

Ahem, no (bolded).  Alien species with options of much higher advanced communication technologies than humans might use to us unknown technologies but that would not exclude the option that they also use old school technologies for the reason of contact. As they are (hypothetical) at a higher stage of development, it is likely that they would use old school technologies in addition as it is likely they used old school technology at an earlyer stage of their development, so they know that radio waves can do the job well and maximize the chance for success.

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26 minutes ago, toast said:

Ahem, no (bolded).  Alien species with options of much higher advanced communication technologies than humans might use to us unknown technologies but that would not exclude the option that they also use old school technologies for the reason of contact. As they are (hypothetical) at a higher stage of development, it is likely that they would use old school technologies in addition as it is likely they used old school technology at an earlyer stage of their development, so they know that radio waves can do the job well and maximize the chance for success.

Can they do the job, well? Will signals travelling hundreds or tens of thousands of light-years remain coherent and detectable? Or, will attenuation and cosmic background radiation shred such signals into nothing? I'd submit the latter is most likely or we'd be overwhelmed by a smorgasbord of exotic transmissions to choose from. All predicated, of course, on the hypothesis that such species even exist and--for some reason--wish to talk to other species about what, I wonder? 

Edited by Hammerclaw
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10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Can they do the job, well? Will signals travelling hundreds or tens of thousands of light-years remain coherent and detectable?

Yes, simple on/off is doing the trick here.

Quote

All predicated, of course, on the hypothesis that such species even exist and--for some reason--wish to talk to other species about what, I wonder? 

We dont know yet.

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6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

There are more efficient means of communicating with the electromagnetic spectrum, lasers, for instance, and perhaps other sophistications we've yet to achieve. 

Why would lasers be more efficient than radio waves for communication?  Radio waves are low energy EM radiation and readily pass through solid matter compared with higher frequencies.  Voyager I can still communicate with earth from 11 billion miles away despite only being able to generate 300W of power.  Would it be possible to communicate over that distance using a laser with the same amount of power?

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1 hour ago, JesseCuster said:

Why would lasers be more efficient than radio waves for communication?  Radio waves are low energy EM radiation and readily pass through solid matter compared with higher frequencies.  Voyager I can still communicate with earth from 11 billion miles away despite only being able to generate 300W of power.  Would it be possible to communicate over that distance using a laser with the same amount of power?

It's the future of space based communications, a future other communicating species may already live in.  http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/llcd-integrated.html#.V3hpB86cEdU

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9 hours ago, badeskov said:

True. But the only RADAR systems that really fit this description would be the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) and they also employ frequency hopping as part of their anti-jamming efforts. And even those guys would only be detectable out to a range of ~200 light years. Those are some of the most powerful emitters we have on Earth that emit directed energy out into space.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Fair enough. But how about an asteroid watch radar, like I hope we'll eventually be running? Lots of power, and no frequency agility because why make it complicated?

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11 hours ago, JesseCuster said:

Why would lasers be more efficient than radio waves for communication?  Radio waves are low energy EM radiation and readily pass through solid matter compared with higher frequencies.  Voyager I can still communicate with earth from 11 billion miles away despite only being able to generate 300W of power.  Would it be possible to communicate over that distance using a laser with the same amount of power?

Lasers have some advantages over radiowaves when used for interstellar communication.

- Lasers have a much higher frequency than radio waves and are thus able to carry more information.

- Lasers are easier to focus, so less energy is wasted.

The disadvantages are:

- Laserlight is more easily blocked by even small amounts of interstellar dust and gas

- Because lasers are so focused they need to be pointed very precisely at the intended reciever. If they are off by even a small amount the information is lost. This is potentially a very big problem for interstellar travel, because when you are light years away from home you wont know that you have lost the connection until years later !

The best solution for anyone doing interstellar travel is probably to use both systems. 

The chances of us intercepting a laser communication signal is very small, because we have to be in the line of sight of the laser in order to see it. That is very unlikely to happen by chance. 

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