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saucy

Did Jesus Die on the cross?

26 posts in this topic

There's a lot of speculation on whether or not Jesus actually survived His crucifixion, went on to have kids or maybe He went to India to live the rest of His days. I say He died so I need someone who is willing to debate me on this subject.

This debate will consist of one introduction, three body posts and one conclusion. Anyone up for it?

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I think you need to have Burnside set it up for you, that way you can have debate judges judge you and your opposition.

*content removed* Please do not post your opinions in the debates unless you're giving your interest in debating on the subject formally. - BurnSide

PM Burnside to arrange a debate, or suggest it in 'Debate Suggestions'.

Edited by BurnSide

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Hailo_hellFIRE, tis nice of you to point out, but saucy is actually a debate organisor too and as such he has debate-creating privaledges too. original.gif

I have edited your post, please don't post opinions in formal debates unless you're going to debate the subject formally.

Fatal Fury, i have also deleted your post. Same reason, tehse are formal debates, post your interest in debating or don't post at all.

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Thanks for pointing that out Burnside. I am a debate organizer, not a judge. Just so people know, I will NOT be judging this debate. With that said, is there anyone who's interested?

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Hiya, i don't know if it is still possible but i would ike to join this debate. If that isn't possible then could i judge this if possible?

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Finally, someone wants to debate. It's cool. You can start. Re-read the rules above and get going! Good luck!

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Can i first ask wich side i am on. Because i think he didn't die on the cross

424932[/snapback]

Sorry, i didn't read your first post that well. Well, here's my introduction then.

Did Jesus survive the Cross? In my humble opionon, yes. I know i'm still rather young and so i watch a lot of tv. I saw a documentary in wich they summed up reasons why Jesus could still live. If i may, i will tell them.

First of all there is the fact that the bible says that Jesus returned from beyond. This can be explained. He might not have died on the cross but maybe just fainted or something like that. You know that his loved ones got him of the cross and maybe they knew that he wasn't dead. And then they got an idea. They could have thought "What if we fool them all? Let's make them think that Jesus died but in secret we'll make him better and then we shall spread the word that he returned from Heaven". As some of you might have heared even the emperor (i forgot his name) said that he was surprised that Jesus died that quickly. I think that they just brought them to the tomb where Maria Magdalena and others started to treat his wounds. Then they rolled the stone before the tomb so that nobody would know that Jesus actually lived and by night they could have visited him and send him away. A little bit of acting and it would have worked perfectly. In the documentary that i saw they also told about a priest that was one day working in his chapel when he suddenly uncovered a hidden area with scrolls inside of them. Wittnesses saw him leaving with the scrolls. He went straith to the bisshop. Late in the night he returned to his chapel without the scrolls. He never said a word again untill the day he died. The words he said where that Jesus had survived the cross and that he had started a familly with Maria Magdalena (i think that it was Maria Magdalena but i forgot it). Then he died... The scrolls where never wound again. According to some people they were burned by the bisshop. These arguements convinced me that Jesus did indeed survive the cross and that he later raised a familly with Maria Magdalena. I hope i have convinced y'all to. Now i would like to give the word to Saucy.

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Here is my introduction:

For the last 2000 or so years, those who do not follow Jesus and His teachings have been trying to, in one way or another, prove that either Jesus never existed or that He lived, but survived the crucifixion and went off to India or with Mary Magdaline to have a family. That last perspective would prove once and for all that Jesus did live, but had no deity. In this debate, I'm going to show that Jesus indeed died on that cross.

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And how will you prove this? There has been no real evidence found that Jesus indeed died at the cross expect for the texts in the bible. There's a lot of evidence that Jesus indeed survive it. How else could one explain him returning from Heaven for example. By doing this they could make the people think that Jesus really was the Son of God and that God sent him back to Earth. This would make Christianity a big religion.Tell me, how will you prove that Jesus indeed die at the cross?

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Okay, let's look at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Those who are squeemish, there are graphic details described.

In Isaiah 52:14, the prophet described how Jesus would look after His ordeal. "Many were amazed when they saw Him--beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person" (New Living Translation)

If you want to read Isaiah 52 and 53, it describes Jesus' whole ordeal some thousand years before it actually happened!

Let's begin:

The physical passion of Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, I shall discuss only the one of psychological interest: the bloody sweat. As recorded by Luke 22:44 "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" Though very rare, the phenomenon of hematidrosis, bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process alone could have marked weakness and possible shock. Jesus knew it was getting close to His time and great amounts of pain were about to be inflicted on Him. That's why I mentioned Isaiah before because the messiah was destined to undergo this sort of torture. Let's move on.

Flogging was a legal preliminary to every Roman execution, and only women and Roman senators or soldiers (except in cases of desertion) were exempt. The ususal instrument was a short whip (flagrum or flagellus; anyone who's interested in seeing what these instruments look like and can look them up online) with several single or braided leather thongs of variable length, in which small iron balls or sharp pieces of sheep bones were tied at intervals. Occasionally, staves were used. For scourging, the man was stripped of his clothing and his hands were tied to an upright post. The back, buttocks and legs were flogged either by two solders (lickors) or by one who alternated positions. The severity of the scourging depended on the disposition of the lictors and was intended to weaken the victim to a state just short of collapse or death. As the Roman soldiers repeatedly struck the victim's back with full force, the iron balls would cause deep contusions and the leather thongs and sheep bones would cut into the skin subcutaneous tissues. As the flogging continued, the lacerations would tear into the underlying skeletel muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh. Pain and blood loss generally set the stage for circulatory shock. The extent of blood loss may well have determined how long the victim would survive on the cross. That's the second possible time Jesus would undergo shock. At the Praetorium, Jesus was severely whipped. Although the severity of the scourging is not dicussed in the four gospel accounts, it is implied in one of the epistles (1 Peter 2:24). A detailed word study of the ancient Greek text for this verse indicates that the scourging of Jesus was particularly harsh. It is not known whether the number of lashes was limited to 39, in accordance with Jewish law. When it was determined by the Centurion in charge that the prisoner was near deeath, the beating was finally stopped. The half-fainting Jesus was then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement wet with His own blood.

This is only part of the punishment Jesus endured. This part of the punishment wrecked his body and his mind. Often, many people died from this kind of flogging before making it to the cross and sometimes people didn't endure the flogging and still died on the cross, but there's more details coming up in my next post. Jesus wouldn't probably even be able to survive this part of the beating let's say a week later when His body became infected or He just kept bleeding uncontrollably.

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You said that many didn't even survive the whips, lets stand carrying the cross. Yet Jesus survived all of those. We don't know that much about Jesus but we can tell that he wasn't weak, in mind AND body. If he survived the intense torturing he might have had more strenght left then they thought. He thought of the people that where in need of him and thats why he wouldn't have given up. He just couldn't have let them all down. I think that he only just fainted or fell in a deep sleep. The people that got him of the cross where his apostels who faked it like Jesus was really dead. Then they brought him to a tomb. Don't you think it was a little bit strange that they wanted a tomb that fast. And isn't it weird that they stayed in the tomb that long. I think that they treated his injuries and when he woke up they told him all about it. They aranged an escape plan and all by night. And the next morning they acted like he was gone while they actually knew that he was gone.

Your turn now.

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See, the story continues.

The Roman soldiers saw a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be a king. They threw a robe across His shoulders and placed a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still needed a crown to make their travesty complete. A small bundle of flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used for firewood) was plaited into the shape of a crown and was pressed into his scalp. Again, there was copious bleeding (the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body). After mocking him and striking him across the face, the soldiers took the stick from his hand and struck him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into his head. Finally, they had tired from their sadistic game and the robe was torn from his back. This had already become adherent to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds and its removal, just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, caused excruciating pain and almost as if he was again being whipped, the wounds again began to bleed. After that was done, the agony continued. Jesus then had the horizonal beam of the cross tied across his shoulders and had to walk some 650 yards to the site of the crucifixion, falling many times. Finally, Jesus was once again ripped from his clothes except for a loin-cloth and was pushed backwards against the cross. The legionnaire felt for a depression at the front of his wrist and then drove a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through his wrist and deep into the wood. He then repeated this action and the cross was then lifted up. His feet was then nailed to the stripes that were attached to the cross. Jesus Christ was now crucified. As He slowly sagged down with more weight on the nails in the wrist, excrutiating, fiery pain shot along his fingers and arms to explode in his brain. The nails in his wrists were putting pressure on the median nerves. As he pushed himself upward to avoid this torment, he places his full weight on the nail through his feet. Again, searing pain created more agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of his feet. Then, another phenomenon occurred. As his arms fatigued, great waves of cramps swept over the muscles, knotting them in deep. With these cramps came the inability to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in oxygen. Jesus fought to raise himself in order to get one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide built up in the lungs and in the bloodstream. He suffered hours of this limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rendering cramps, intermittant partial asphyxiation, searing pain as tissue was torn from his lacerated back as he moved up and down against the rough timber. Another agony began. A deep, crushing pain deep in his chestas his pericardium slowly filled with serum and began to compress his heart. It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached critical level. The compressed heart was struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissues--the tortured lungs were making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to His brain.

This was what happened during a Roman crucifixion. Nobody survived this ordeal. People died from suffocation or heart attacks or lack of blood. He was in deep pain that would've put his body into shock. The crown of thorns pierced into his brain, adding more pain and the likely death of Jesus. After he hung from the cross for hours and was declared dead, the Romans took on final step to ensure his death. They thrust a spear into his side and up into his heart. We know it was his heart because the bible describes that both blood and water came from this wound. Around the heart is a sack of clear liquid to help protect it. The spear alone is enough to kill a man.

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(I don't know if it's 3 post each or just 3 posts. I'm gonna send one more. You can remove it if i'm wrong)

Yet, how can you explain the story about Jesus coming back to life then? It has been said in the bible that Jesus came back to life. And what happened to the corpse. It was gone, ya know and they haven't found it. He must have survived because i don't think they are grave robbers that are that polite to fold up the blankets he was wrapped in. And if he was taken away by grave robbers, why didn't they just take the blankets with them. And you have to think about it that something, like lets say a miracle, would surely make a small religion into a world spread religion, even the greatest in the world.

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See, that's the thing about Christianity. It is one of the greatest religions in the world. Most people are like you and don't understand the miracle of Jesus' death and ressurrection. As a man, there was no way that Jesus could've survived the horrible crucifixion. Nobody ever survived crucifixion. The Romans were masters of this torture and kill method.

After Jesus was taken down from the cross, John, a rich man, offered Jesus his tomb, fulfilling the prophecy that Jesus would be buried among the rich. Nicodemus and John took Jesus to the grave and the Roman governor, Pontus Pilate, ordered that the grave be sealed by a two-ton rock and there be fifteen Roman guards there to guard it. The guards put their life on the line for it they failed, they would be killed. Nobody could've possibly stolen the body.

More proof that Jesus was killed comes in the way all the disciples reacted. They all went and hid! They didn't stick around. Not only were they scared that they would be next to die, but they were depressed. Their savior was dead, the man whom they've followed for the last three years, whom they expected to change the world, their God was dead. Then, three days after the crucifixion, two Marys and a few other women, possibly the wives of the disciples, went to go and visit Jesus' tomb. All the guards were passed out on the ground and the women became freightened as an angel appeared before them and rolled back the 2-ton stone for the first time. Inside the tomb was a second angel. The angels told Mary that He wasn't here. The tomb was empty.

There were people who just did not believe Jesus was Messiah. One man was named Saul. He hated the new religion of Chrisitanity and set out to kill Christians. Well, one day Saul was walking along the road and Jesus appeared next to him and proved He was the messiah. How else could one go from killing Christians to be one! Saul changed his name to Paul and ended up writing most of the New Testament. We know these disciples lived because there is record of them outside of the bible, even how they died. After seeing the ressurrected Jesus, most of the disciples went out and started preaching. They were no longer afraid.

You say there are sightings of Jesus after his crucifixion and the only explanation is that he survived? Well, if Jesus was just a man, and he survived the crucifixion, then nobody's life would've changed. The disciples would've rolled back that stone on their own, that is to say they could or get past the Roman guards and seen Jesus lying there, and seen a miserable sight. Jesus would've been all torn up, still bloody, nor would he be able to walk, have use of his hands because of the nailing and his body would easily become infected.

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You can't forget that the Christian Believe was starting to become a big religion allready. Jesus didn't only have his apostels but also a big group of people that followed him. Couldn't it have been that even some Romans believed in Jesus. And a big group of people could easely overpower 15 guards and push away a rock. The Angel thing is hard to believe. I think they just made that up. And the Angel in the tomb was probably one of Jesus followers that was waithing for them because they knew that they would come eventually. The group could have threated his wounds. How else could one explain the ressurection of Jesus. I'm a person that believes in God but i do not that he would bring back his son just for a while. Why would God have let Jesus die in the first place then. If he would have let Jesus survive the cross and break free from it then they would have even had a bigger religion. And then there would have been actual prove that God is real and that Jesus is his son. It just doesn't make sense then. I don't think Jesus was the son of God but that he was just a messenger sent by him. And as a reward God for his deeds he might have even helped him a little bit with the wounds and made sure that he could get away and have a calm life till the end of his days. There are many things in this world that can't be explained of course but this is only my opinion

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Well, like I said before, there's no way just a man could've survived the cross. Even in the 1800's people with deep wounds would die even though they had much better treatment than those in Jesus' time. They didn't know about how to keep infections in check or penicillen or anything. That spear into his chest was enough to kill any man, even today. If the disciples stole Jesus' body from the tomb, there's no way he would be able to appear before anyone. He would've still been totally beaten and weak. How long do you think, even with treatment, Jesus would lie in bed, waiting for all those lashes, contusions, holes in his head, hands and feet and everything to heal back up? He also lost a ton of blood. I know you keep going back to it BUT THERE IS NO WAY JESUS COULD'VE SURVIVED. He appeared before a group of 4,000 men and preached to them after the crucifixion. He appeared to Saul. Saul would've taken on look at the defeated Jesus and would not have turned Christian. Those who saw Jesus would not follow him. They were smart enough to say, "That's not the messiah!"

Jesus came to earth, died and rose again. That's the Christian faith. Jesus was more than a prophet. He healed people, he feed people, loved people and showed us true grace by dying for us on the cross.

That's the final of all posts, so it's time to be judged.

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Great debate guys!

I'll edit the title so the judges know it's time for this one to be judged.

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I'm just sending this mail to tell Saucy he did great. I'm sure that i'm gonna lose grin2.gif

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I don't know if it's alright for me to post now, but that was a good debate. I never knew that much about the crucifixion!

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I don't know if it's alright for me to post now, but that was a good debate. I never knew that much about the crucifixion!

428098[/snapback]

And what do i have to say then. The only thing that i know about the crucifixion is what i saw on a documentary grin2.gif

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Gentlemen; your scores..

Debator 1:The Drake

Relevancy:10

Countering:6

Style: 5

Persausiveness: 5

Total: 26

Debator 2: Saucy

Relevancy:10

Countering:8

Style: 8

Persausiveness:8

Total: 34

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Debator 1:The Drake

Relevancy:9

Countering:6

Style: 4

Persausiveness: 6

Total: 25

Debator 2: Saucy

Relevancy:9

Countering:9

Style: 7

Persausiveness:7

Total: 32

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Debator 1:The Drake

Relevancy:9

Countering:7

Style: 5

Persausiveness: 6

Total: 27

Debator 2: Saucy

Relevancy:9

Countering:8

Style: 7

Persausiveness:8

Total: 32

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Well, i knew it. Congratulations Saucy

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Thanks Drake, you did a good job also. Now that the judging is over, this debate is locked!

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