Podo Posted July 19, 2016 #51 Share Posted July 19, 2016 19 hours ago, Habitat said: I don't consider it an open question at all, on the evidence available to me, but the details I have are sparse, I have no idea if everyone or even a lot "graduates", but I know some do. And how do you know this? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 19, 2016 #52 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Podo said: And how do you know this? By observations of events that occurred following the death of a much-loved relative, including the fulfillment of a pact to signal the existence of the "beyond". I had no expectation at all, that that would be realised. I am not easily convinced at all, but I'd be a fool to ignore the numerous, overt "signs". You can rationalize it away as a deception, or a self-deception on my part, but you would be guessing wrong. Edited July 19, 2016 by Habitat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted July 19, 2016 #53 Share Posted July 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, Habitat said: By observations of events that occurred following the death of a much-loved relative, including the fulfillment of a pact to signal the existence of the "beyond". I am not easily convinced, but I'd be a fool to ignore the numerous, overt "signs". You can rationalize it away as a deception, or a self-deception on my part, but you would be guessing wrong. Your inability to separate belief from proof is astounding. You believe these things, but you don't know them. Like you yourself have said, you're just another guesser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 19, 2016 #54 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Just now, Podo said: Your inability to separate belief from proof is astounding. You believe these things, but you don't know them. Like you yourself have said, you're just another guesser. No, my ability to separate belief from proof is very well developed, and all your post reveals is your determination to be closed-minded. I have seen ample evidence, and there is no other option, for me, but to accept that there is an afterlife for some at least. You have to reckon with the fact that events being not on open display, does not render them invalid or less real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted July 19, 2016 #55 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Just now, Habitat said: No, my ability to separate belief from proof is very well developed, and all your post reveals is your determination to be closed-minded. I have seen ample evidence, and there is no other option, for me, but to accept that there is an afterlife for some at least. You have to reckon with the fact that events being not on open display, does not render them invalid or less real. False. I've never claimed that an afterlife doesn't exist. I've pointed out that there is no measurable or observable to think that consciousness persists after brain death. As I've stated previously, whether consciousness persists or not is irrelevant, because there is still no evidential reason to believe that it does. If you think otherwise, that's fine, but it's not proof, it is belief. Don't confuse the two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 19, 2016 #56 Share Posted July 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Podo said: False. I've never claimed that an afterlife doesn't exist. I've pointed out that there is no measurable or observable to think that consciousness persists after brain death. As I've stated previously, whether consciousness persists or not is irrelevant, because there is still no evidential reason to believe that it does. If you think otherwise, that's fine, but it's not proof, it is belief. Don't confuse the two. I have seem more than enough evidence, you can worry about nit-picking whether it is a manifestation of persisting "consciousness", but who/whatever has orchestrated the demonstrations I have witnessed, has a remarkable knowledge of matters known only to myself and the deceased. I have no interest in technicalities of whether it constitutes "persistent consciousness". A fool might believe they can penetrate this mystery by science and investigation, it is increasingly clear to me that we are the audience, not the actors, in this theatre. As to your statement that it "isn't relevant, because there is still no evidential reason", well, that is just nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted July 19, 2016 #57 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Habitat said: I have seem more than enough evidence, you can worry about nit-picking whether it is a manifestation of persisting "consciousness", but who/whatever has orchestrated the demonstrations I have witnessed, has a remarkable knowledge of matters known only to myself and the deceased. I have no interest in technicalities of whether it constitutes "persistent consciousness". A fool might believe they can penetrate this mystery by science and investigation, it is increasingly clear to me that we are the audience, not the actors, in this theatre. As to your statement that it "isn't relevant, because there is still no evidential reason", well, that is just nonsense. You say it is nonsense, but you can't offer anything but vague anecdotes in response. You think that there is proof that consciousness exists after full brain-death? Prove it, then. If you can't, then you're exactly the same as every other human that has ever lived; you don't know. You may think you know, but you're "just another guesser" (your words, not mine). Belief is fine, but acknowledge the difference between belief and proof. It's not that hard, I promise. Edited July 20, 2016 by Podo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 20, 2016 #58 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Podo said: You say it is nonsense, but you can't offer anything but vague anecdotes in response. You think that there is proof that consciousness exists after full brain-death? Prove it, then. If you can't, then you're exactly the same as every other human that has ever lived, and you don't know. You may think you know, but you're "just another guesser" (your words, not mine). Belief is fine, but acknowledge the difference between belief and proof. It's not that hard, I promise. Anecdotes is all you will ever get, till you become a witness yourself. You are a victim of a dogma that says that which cannot be openly demonstrated, does not exist. I know better, so look upon scoffers as the fools they are. Doubters have my full approval, scoffers are just ignorant ratbags. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted July 20, 2016 #59 Share Posted July 20, 2016 21 hours ago, Habitat said: You don't know that, you are just another guesser. The difference being that there is no evidential reason to think anything other than oblivion. 2 minutes ago, Habitat said: Anecdotes is all you will ever get, till you become a witness yourself. You are a victim of a dogma that says that which cannot be openly demonstrated, does not exist. I know better, so look upon scoffers as the fools they are. Doubters have my full approval, scoffers are just ignorant ratbags. You can sling insults all you want, but your inability to separate belief from proof is clear. Ratbag I may be, but I only believe things that have supporting evidence to back them up. But by all means, enjoy your superstition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 20, 2016 #60 Share Posted July 20, 2016 6 minutes ago, Habitat said: Anecdotes is all you will ever get, till you become a witness yourself. You are a victim of a dogma that says that which cannot be openly demonstrated, does not exist. I know better, so look upon scoffers as the fools they are. Doubters have my full approval, scoffers are just ignorant ratbags. My witnessing (twice) tells me that there is nothing. Sleep is just a little dose of death before the final slumber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 20, 2016 #61 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Podo said: The difference being that there is no evidential reason to think anything other than oblivion. You can sling insults all you want, but your inability to separate belief from proof is clear. Ratbag I may be, but I only believe things that have supporting evidence to back them up. But by all means, enjoy your superstition. You tell me, are you a doubter, or just a scoffer ? If the answer is the latter, your education has been a wretched failure. Because the only "reasonable" attitude, would be to doubt, allowing that it might be a true account, it might be a total fabrication, or something in between with no way of knowing which. But to come down either on the side of blind acceptance, or total dismissal of it, would be wrong-headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 20, 2016 #62 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, XenoFish said: My witnessing (twice) tells me that there is nothing. Sleep is just a little dose of death before the final slumber. I make no claims for what happens to everyone, only for what seemingly happens to some. Maybe we won't be re-cycled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted July 20, 2016 #63 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, Habitat said: You tell me, are you a doubter, or just a scoffer ? If the answer is the latter, your education has been a wretched failure. Because the only "reasonable" attitude, would be to doubt, allowing that it might be a true account, it might be a total fabrication, or something in between with no way of knowing which. But to come down either on the side of blind acceptance, or total dismissal of it, would be wrong-headed. Doubt. Always doubt. I have said many times that I don't dismiss any sort of afterlife. One either exists or does not, our opinions and observations are irrelevant to its reality. However, there is no reason to think one exists due to a lack of evidence. If that changes? I'll change my tune. But there is currently nothing testable or observable saying othwrwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 20, 2016 #64 Share Posted July 20, 2016 We're all recycled. It's called fertilizer. Born from the star to them all will return. Until the death of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 20, 2016 #65 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, Podo said: Doubt. Always doubt. I have said many times that I don't dismiss any sort of afterlife. One either exists or does not, our opinions and observations are irrelevant to its reality. However, there is no reason to think one exists due to a lack of evidence. If that changes? I'll change my tune. But there is currently nothing testable or observable saying othwrwise. Glad to hear you are a doubter, that is the only way to be, but don't kid yourself it will come into the realm of science, and you will get evidence that way. If that were going to happen, it would long ago. So don't assume it must be testable, or void. You are dallying with the idea that this has to jump your hurdles. I suspect the very opposite, you have to jump it's hurdles, or see nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted July 20, 2016 #66 Share Posted July 20, 2016 11 minutes ago, Habitat said: Glad to hear you are a doubter, that is the only way to be, but don't kid yourself it will come into the realm of science, and you will get evidence that way. If that were going to happen, it would long ago. So don't assume it must be testable, or void. You are dallying with the idea that this has to jump your hurdles. I suspect the very opposite, you have to jump it's hurdles, or see nothing. Sorry if you already mentioned it, but I'm curious now what your personal story is about the dead confirming things for you? I don't want to argue. Just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micky 32 Posted July 20, 2016 #67 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) I think it will be one of 2 things. It will either be lights out for eternity, just like being asleep but you never ever wake up or you'll exist as something or someone else in a different time, different place and a different when or possibly in the same universe, babies are born all the time ;-). I don't mean reicarnation just an existance, just like you have today, i mean it happened to you once to be in existance so it's possible at some stage it could happen again, as long as atoms exist . Edited July 20, 2016 by micky 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown_man_1_thousand Posted July 28, 2016 #68 Share Posted July 28, 2016 to hell you wont go, but maybe you can just turn a rotten meat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarbinks Posted July 29, 2016 #69 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Imagine yourself, your brain, as your hardrive in your computer. Unplug your computer. Hardrive stop and there's nothing. It's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSilhouette Posted July 30, 2016 #70 Share Posted July 30, 2016 On 7/16/2016 at 10:35 PM, StarMountainKid said: The objection I have with NDE's is that they're near death experiences, not after death experiences. Except some who have been pronounced dead, floated down the hall and outside while their body lay on a gurney with a sheet over their head. While floating around they see specific events and hear conversations. When they are revived, they repeat events and conversations down to undeniable details. So, those NDEs are worth noting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badeskov Posted August 1, 2016 #71 Share Posted August 1, 2016 On July 29, 2016 at 8:08 PM, SSilhouette said: Except some who have been pronounced dead, floated down the hall and outside while their body lay on a gurney with a sheet over their head. While floating around they see specific events and hear conversations. When they are revived, they repeat events and conversations down to undeniable details. So, those NDEs are worth noting. Why? The reason they can be revived is that their neurons are still firing. Cheers, Badeskov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted August 1, 2016 #72 Share Posted August 1, 2016 A bit late, and I'm sure it's been said: Simply, the end of our bodies biological process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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