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Remember how Melania plagiarised Michelle


OverSword

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There really doesn't seem to be any significance to the issue.  The only people taking it seriously are the ones no one is particularly interested in debating.

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1 hour ago, aquatus1 said:

There really doesn't seem to be any significance to the issue.  The only people taking it seriously are the ones no one is particularly interested in debating.

Really?

I always find it "significant" when people in positions of authority, or who aspire to such positions, exhibit behaviour contrary to the values they publicly espouse. It doesn't matter if that person is Hillary Clinton or Melania Trump, and it doesn't matter whether the behaviour is negligence (to the point of criminality), or lying about writing a speech and then letting someone else take the fall when that speech is criticised.

Any such behaviour is "significant", because not only does it show us that people who aspire to authority often are "do what I say, don't do as I do" people, but also in the numbers of people in the public who are willing to turn a blind eye to that behaviour, perhaps by deriding those pointing it out by suggesting they are "uninteresting", and, in doing so, tacitly allow those who aspire to authority to continue to be hypocrites.

One of the major complaints I read in these political forums is how those in authority are hypocrites and abuse the "little guy". However, that complaint will never be addressed unless people are willing to look at the behaviour of people from all sides of the fence with the same critical eye.

Edited by Leonardo
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Once again, because someone has repeatedly said Melania "lied about writing the speech", I'd like to remind everyone that she said she wrote it "with as little help as possible."

I'm sure no one, particularly those espousing the position that Melania lied, is unable to grasp the subtle nuances of the English language that makes that particular statement rather broad.

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43 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Really?

I always find it "significant" when people in positions of authority, or who aspire to such positions, exhibit behaviour contrary to the values they publicly espouse.

More power to you.  Pretty much everyone else doesn't really care what people of celebrity status do beyond the entertainment value of it.  People in actual positions of authority get checked and rechecked, a la Trump and Hillary, but how much that affects people depends on whether they have invested enough energy in supporting them.  The more you invest in someone, the more you defend them, and vice-versa.  Very few people have invested much energy into Melania, so very few people consider it significant.

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18 minutes ago, aquatus1 said:

More power to you.  Pretty much everyone else doesn't really care what people of celebrity status do beyond the entertainment value of it.  People in actual positions of authority get checked and rechecked, a la Trump and Hillary, but how much that affects people depends on whether they have invested enough energy in supporting them.  The more you invest in someone, the more you defend them, and vice-versa.  Very few people have invested much energy into Melania, so very few people consider it significant.

I would hardly call her just "a celebrity with entertainment value". She aspires to be First Lady. While I acknowledge that post has no official political authority, it does actually have authority - and she will be in a position to influence the President should Trump succeed in his campaign.

I seem to recall when Obama was on his first campaign, the interest in Michelle Obama was considerable. I am not going to consider the suggestion that was simply down to the colour of her skin, so why aren't people wondering just who this "Melania", who may just be influential to the next President of the US, is?

Or is it, as I alluded to earlier, that she gets a free-pass because she "looks good"?

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1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

Really?

 

Yea. I really don't care about it. Didn't care about it when 0bama was accused of it. Bet you wouldn't put up this much, or any fuss at all about 0bama doing it either.  

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7 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Yea. I really don't care about it. Didn't care about it when 0bama was accused of it. Bet you wouldn't put up this much, or any fuss at all about 0bama doing it either.  

As I said earlier, I couldn't care less about the accusation of plagiarism.

What I do care about, is addressing the comments that her actions were "okay, because she spoke well, and looked good". She lied, and then shirked responsibility to cover-up her lie.

I don't care if it was her, Obama, or whoever. If they lied and then acted to allow someone else to take responsibility (and a fall) to cover-up for that lie, I would criticise them - and I don't really understand why so many are so quick to criticise Obama or Clinton when they lie, but apparently have no interest in criticising someone who aspires to be First Lady.

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9 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

I would hardly call her just "a celebrity with entertainment value".

And you are certainly welcome to that opinion.  Personally, I think the notion Melania has any sort of influence over Trump to be as laughable as the notion that she wrote her own speech.  And being that claiming she has authority, or position, or any other form of significance, is really nothing more than a claim, I will go ahead and maintain my position that this is a subject of no significance to, well...anything.  Just like all other celebrity nonsense.

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As its been pointed out several times now Leo, she didn't lie at all.

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4 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

As its been pointed out several times now Leo, she didn't lie at all.

How is that?

She claimed to have written her speech, albeit she said "with as little help as possible". Even giving the benefit of the doubt to that caveat "as little as possible", she still clearly intended the listener to believe the speech was largely her composition, and the help she received was probably only in layout, or grammar, etc.

I can't think of any way to describe what she said, except as a lie.

Aquatus,

If this issue really has "no significance" to you, why are you expending all this effort to reduce my argument?

I said previously, I judge a person's character by their actions, not their words. All you are doing is showing the issue does indeed hold more "significance" than you claim.

Edited by Leonardo
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That's making assumptions in regards to what she meant by as little help as possible. That's not on her, that's on you. Certainly isn't grounds for calling her a liar. An she isn't even running for president. Now Hilary has openly out right lied about several things, over decades.

You cant think of any other way to describe it, cause its what you want to see. Not what's actually there.

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18 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

That's making assumptions in regards to what she meant by as little help as possible. That's not on her, that's on you. Certainly isn't grounds for calling her a liar. An she isn't even running for president. Now Hilary has openly out right lied about several things, over decades.

You cant think of any other way to describe it, cause its what you want to see. Not what's actually there.

Even if it is an assumption, it is well-founded. Why did she even make the claim "I wrote it myself"?

I can't recall other aspiring First Ladies making a similar claim when interviewed, nor other politicians. That is because it is expected that their speech is written for them by professionals.

She made the claim because the Trump campaign wanted to lay it's claim of "ownership" to the values expressed in the speech. If she wrote the speech, those values are "hers" (and, by default, Donald Trump's.)

Of course, all politicians when campaigning also imply (just by campaigning) that what they say reflects their own values - but they don't do so by stating "I wrote this speech".

It was clumsy, and it was a clumsy lie, intended to showcase Melania as a person who holds those values. She showed she doesn't when she didn't come forward in the furore afterwards and take responsibility, but allowed a speechwriter (who's career is now probably finished) to take the fall instead.

Instead of people saying "Well, it was a pretty speech and she looked pretty", or "Well, it was only a little thing, and everyone does it" why not say "So, she is just like all the others then"?

Edited by Leonardo
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49 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Even if it is an assumption, it is well-founded. Why did she even make the claim "I wrote it myself"?

I can't recall other aspiring First Ladies making a similar claim when interviewed, nor other politicians. That is because it is expected that their speech is written for them by professionals.

She made the claim because the Trump campaign wanted to lay it's claim of "ownership" to the values expressed in the speech. If she wrote the speech, those values are "hers" (and, by default, Donald Trump's.)

Of course, all politicians when campaigning also imply (just by campaigning) that what they say reflects their own values - but they don't do so by stating "I wrote this speech".

It was clumsy, and it was a clumsy lie, intended to showcase Melania as a person who holds those values. She showed she doesn't when she didn't come forward in the furore afterwards and take responsibility, but allowed a speechwriter (who's career is now probably finished) to take the fall instead.

Instead of people saying "Well, it was a pretty speech and she looked pretty", or "Well, it was only a little thing, and everyone does it" why not say "So, she is just like all the others then"?

Cause she probably did. We are talking about two sentences

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4 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Cause she probably did. We are talking about two sentences

Here is a transcript of her speech...

Quote

Thank you very much. Thank you. You have all been very kind to Donald and me, to our young son Barron, and to our whole family. It's a very nice welcome and we're excited to be with you at this historic convention. I am so proud of your choice for president of the United States, my husband, Donald J. Trump.

And I can assure you, he is moved by this great honor. The 2016 Republican primaries were fierce and started with many candidates, 17 to be exact, and I know that Donald agrees with me when I mention how talented all of them are. They deserve respect and gratitude from all of us.

However, when it comes to my husband, I will say that I am definitely biased, and for good reason.

I have been with Donald for 18 years and I have been aware of his love for this country since we first met. He never had a hidden agenda when it comes to his patriotism, because, like me, he loves this country so much. I was born in Slovenia, a small, beautiful and then-communist country in Central Europe. My sister Ines, who is an incredible woman and a friend, and I were raised by my wonderful parents. My elegant and hard-working mother Amalia introduced me to fashion and beauty. My father Viktor instilled in me a passion for business and travel. Their integrity, compassion and intelligence reflects to this day on me and for my love of family and America.

From a young age, my parents impressed on me the values that you work hard for what you want in life; that your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise; that you treat people with respect. They taught and showed me values and morals in their daily life. That is a lesson that I continue to pass along to our son, and we need to pass those lessons on to the many generations to follow. Because we want our children in this nation to know that the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.

I am fortunate for my heritage, but also for where it brought me today. I traveled the world while working hard in the incredible arena of fashion. After living and working in Milan and Paris, I arrived in New York City 20 years ago, and I saw both the joys and the hardships of daily life. On July 28, 2006, I was very proud to become a citizen of the United States — the greatest privilege on planet Earth. I cannot, or will not, take the freedoms this country offers for granted. But these freedoms have come with a price so many times. The sacrifices made by our veterans are reminders to us of this. I would like to take this moment to recognize an amazing veteran, the great Sen. Bob Dole. And let us thank all of our veterans in the arena today, and those across our great country. We are all truly blessed to be here. That will never change.

I can tell you with certainty that my husband has been concerned about our country for as long as I have known him. With all of my heart, I know that he will make a great and lasting difference. Donald has a deep and unbounding determination and a never-give-up attitude. I have seen him fight for years to get a project done — or even started — and he does not give up! If you want someone to fight for you and your country, I can assure you, he is the "guy."

He will never, ever, give up. And, most importantly, he will never, ever, let you down. Donald is, and always has been, an amazing leader. Now, he will go to work for you. His achievements speak for themselves, and his performance throughout the primary campaign proved that he knows how to win. He also knows how to remain focused on improving our country — on keeping it safe and secure. He is tough when he has to be but he is also kind and fair and caring. This kindness is not always noted, but it is there for all to see. That is one reason I fell in love with him to begin with.

Donald is intensely loyal. To family, friends, employees, country. He has the utmost respect for his parents, Mary and Fred, to his sisters Maryanne and Elizabeth, to his brother Robert and to the memory of his late brother Fred. His children have been cared for and mentored to the extent that even his adversaries admit they are an amazing testament to who he is as a man and a father. There is a great deal of love in the Trump family. That is our bond, and that is our strength.

Yes, Donald thinks big, which is especially important when considering the presidency of the United States. No room for small thinking. No room for small results. Donald gets things done.

Our country is underperforming and needs new leadership. Leadership is also what the world needs. Donald wants our country to move forward in the most positive of ways. Everyone wants change. Donald is the only one that can deliver it. We should not be satisfied with stagnation. Donald wants prosperity for all Americans. We need new programs to help the poor and opportunities to challenge the young. There has to be a plan for growth — only then will fairness result.

My husband's experience exemplifies growth and successful passage of opportunity to the next generation. His success indicates inclusion rather than division. My husband offers a new direction, welcoming change, prosperity and greater cooperation among peoples and nations. Donald intends to represent all the people, not just some of the people. That includes Christians and Jews and Muslims, it includes Hispanics and African Americans and Asians, and the poor and the middle-class. Throughout his career, Donald has successfully worked with people of many faiths and with many nations.

Like no one else, I have seen the talent, the energy, the tenacity, the resourceful mind, and the simple goodness of heart that God gave to Donald Trump. Now is the time to use those gifts as never before, for purposes far greater than ever before. And he will do this better than anyone else can — and it won't even be close. Everything depends on it, for our cause and for our country.

People are counting on him — all the millions of you who have touched us so much with your kindness and your confidence. You have turned this unlikely campaign into a movement that is still gaining in strength and number. The primary season, and its toughness, is behind us. Let's all come together in a national campaign like no other.

The race will be hard-fought, all the way to November. There will be good times and hard times and unexpected turns — it would not be a Trump contest without excitement and drama. But through it all, my husband will remain focused on only one thing: this beautiful country, that he loves so much.

If I am honored to serve as first lady, I will use that wonderful privilege to try to help people in our country who need it the most. One of the many causes dear to my heart is helping children and women. You judge a society by how it treats its citizens. We must do our best to ensure that every child can live in comfort and security, with the best possible education. As citizens of this great nation, it is kindness, love, and compassion for each other that will bring us together — and keep us together. These are the values Donald and I will bring to the White House. My husband is ready to lead this great nation. He is ready to fight, every day, to give our children the better future they deserve. Ladies and gentlemen, Donald J. Trump is ready to serve and lead this country as the next president of the United States.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless America.

source

2 sentences?

Edited by Leonardo
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She didn't plagiarize the whole speech. They are screaming over two sentences in this speech that were similar.  

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7 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

She didn't plagiarize the whole speech. They are screaming over two sentences in this speech that were similar.  

Not similar, 1:1 the same, the second sentence she committed an error and it seems different though.

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Point is, no one knows how much of it she wrote, so to call her a liar cause she said she had a little help writing it, cause of two sentences, is really reaching. I mean Hilary out right lied to the nation when she said she never had any classified info on her computer. Where is Leo's outrage over that? That actually has real consequences. Hell for all we know she was getting paid to use that email as a drop box to foreign intelligence. That would be right up a Clintons ally. 

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3 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Even if it is an assumption, it is well-founded. Why did she even make the claim "I wrote it myself"?

For all you know she may very well have written a draft (or dictated it) herself. How much of that made up, or was included in, the final speech we don't know.

 

3 hours ago, Leonardo said:

She showed she doesn't when she didn't come forward in the furore afterwards and take responsibility, but allowed a speechwriter (who's career is now probably finished) to take the fall instead.

That's quite an accusation. You've jumped to the conclusion that she (and not the speechwriter) was the one who plagiarized parts of Michelle's speech. And yet on the other hand, you don't believe she wrote any part of that speech. So if she didn't write it, then how could she have plagiarized anything?

 

3 hours ago, Leonardo said:

She made the claim because the Trump campaign wanted to lay it's claim of "ownership" to the values expressed in the speech.

Do you have someone on the inside feeding you this information? Or is it that you have mind-reading abilities? Obviously we can take a guess at what someone's intent might be, but no one here is in any position to state it with any certainty.

As an aside, this discussion reminded me of John F. Kennedy taking credit for a book (Profiles in Courage) that someone else wrote for him, he also accepted the Pulitzer Prize for it. Ironically, it was that book (among other things) that helped make him a credible Presidential candidate.

Edited by Clair
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12 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Cause she probably did. We are talking about two sentences

I have to agree. This has the appearance of coincidence and not plagiarism. If it was plagiarism, you'd think 90% of the speech would be similar to other speeches. That both Mrs Obama and Melania both worded the sentence the same way probably means simply that they both find the same aesthetic in the wording. 

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13 hours ago, Clair said:

For all you know she may very well have written a draft (or dictated it) herself. How much of that made up, or was included in, the final speech we don't know.

So, why did she not then come forward to take responsibility for the speech, rather than let an innocent speechwriter take the fall?

13 hours ago, Clair said:

 

That's quite an accusation. You've jumped to the conclusion that she (and not the speechwriter) was the one who plagiarized parts of Michelle's speech. And yet on the other hand, you don't believe she wrote any part of that speech. So if she didn't write it, then how could she have plagiarized anything?

I base my (well-founded) assumption on the fact she didn't come forward to take responsibility. While it is common knowledge that politicians have speechwriters write their speeches for them, I am also sure that they have some input into the content - i.e. what ideas they want to convey. Melania may have said something along the lines "I admire Michelle Obama and want to convey the same ideals as she did in her speech."

However, that is not Melania "writing the speech with as little help as possible".

13 hours ago, Clair said:

 

Do you have someone on the inside feeding you this information? Or is it that you have mind-reading abilities? Obviously we can take a guess at what someone's intent might be, but no one here is in any position to state it with any certainty.

As an aside, this discussion reminded me of John F. Kennedy taking credit for a book (Profiles in Courage) that someone else wrote for him, he also accepted the Pulitzer Prize for it. Ironically, it was that book (among other things) that helped make him a credible Presidential candidate.

I am not an "insider" and, your snidey suggestion notwithstanding, it doesn't take a genius to read the situation - it only takes a level of objectivity.

I have not excused anyone else by criticising Melania, and the excuse "Oh, but they all do it" simply feeds into the narrative the politicians want you to believe, that it's okay to do wrong as long as everyone is doing it.

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14 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Point is, no one knows how much of it she wrote, so to call her a liar cause she said she had a little help writing it, cause of two sentences, is really reaching. I mean Hilary out right lied to the nation when she said she never had any classified info on her computer. Where is Leo's outrage over that? That actually has real consequences. Hell for all we know she was getting paid to use that email as a drop box to foreign intelligence. That would be right up a Clintons ally. 

I have already made my opinion about Clinton known in threads that are about Clinton.

And did Melania's lie not have 'real' consequences? Did a speechwriter not have to come forward to take responsibilty and so probably wreck their speechwriting career?

If Melania Trump claimed to have written the speech, she should take responsibility for the criticism of it that followed.

And for the 3rd time, preacherman, I am unconcerned about the accusation of plagiarism. Whether "two sentences" were lifted from someone else's speech doesn't matter to me. What I am criticising, is Melania's lie that she wrote the speech and her not taking responsibility after the fact even though she made that claim. It is the latter that compounds her lie, because she has harmed the career of the speechwriter to protect herself from criticism.

Edited by Leonardo
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1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

I have already made my opinion about Clinton known in threads that are about Clinton.

And did Melania's lie not have 'real' consequences? Did a speechwriter not have to come forward to take responsibilty and so probably wreck their speechwriting career?

If Melania Trump claimed to have written the speech, she should take responsibility for the criticism of it that followed.

And for the 3rd time, preacherman, I am unconcerned about the accusation of plagiarism. Whether "two sentences" were lifted from someone else's speech doesn't matter to me. What I am criticising, is Melania's lie that she wrote the speech and her not taking responsibility after the fact even though she made that claim. It is the latter that compounds her lie, because she has harmed the career of the speechwriter to protect herself from criticism.

I have no idea whats in store for the future of this speech writer. An neither do you. Either way it doesn't effect me, you, or the world in anyway what so ever. Aside from stoking the fires of leftists that are praying some of their mud sticks enough to do damage. There are real things going on this election cycle, real outright lies being told. This isn't one of them.

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Goodness gracious. Did she lie about writing the speech or did she let the speechwriter take the fall? Which is it man?! It was likely a collaboration and by saying she wrote it was the exact opposite of letting the little guy fall on the sword. In fact, the speechwriter came out the following day and accepted responsibility for the, apparently in your eyes, blunder of all blunders then handed in her resignation and Trump refused to accept it. In the long run I see nothing underhanded or slimy about the Trumps in all this. Besides, Obama lifted a speech from The West Wing in the op video for Pete's sake.

Maybe Trump will lift Bill Pullman's speech from Independence Day when he takes charge to go and quickly defeat ISIS along with the rest of the world. 

 

 

Quote

 

Good morning. In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest aerial battle in this history of mankind.

Mankind -- that word should have new meaning for all of us today.

We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore.

We will be united in our common interests.

Perhaps its fate that today is the 4th of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom, not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution -- but from annihilation.

We're fighting for our right to live, to exist.

And should we win the day, the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice:

"We will not go quietly into the night!

We will not vanish without a fight!

We're going to live on!

We're going to survive!"

Today, we celebrate our Independence Day!

 

 

 

 

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Apparently thinking that nuances of the English language were grasped was a generous assumption. You have to hate to see it.

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