Alan McDougall Posted July 30, 2016 #1 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Why I reject karma and reincarnation Karma is a belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind Alternatively, one chooses one's own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment. I list my objections to this belief below. 1) The bible says it is appointed for a person once to live and then the judgment. 2). Karma says that a soul must live many mortal lives to reach perfection. Thus humanity undergoes must undergo countless incarnation from an insect or bad human until one finally becomes an enlightened master. One, nevertheless, must start out as a lowly life form such as a cockroach or garden Lilly and finally, after countless millions of years progress to become human. For the life of me, how does a bad cockroach or garden Lilly become a "good cockroach or garden Lilly"? 3). Karma says that if we have a weakness or fault in this life, we must return reborn, again and again, and overcome our failings in the previous in the next life, or horrors upon horrors maybe revert to been a cockroach again. 4) Therefore, any suffering we have to endure in this life, be it cancer, aids, all other sicknesses poverty, etc, etc is our own fault due to the evil or bad things we did in our past life. This is a cruel belief as many saintly people suffer and die in the most horrific manner. What soul would choose to be a Jew in the Second World War and see their beloved's torn from them in the holocaust and consumed in the ovens of Hitler's death camps? 5). The above paragraphs shows that Karma is nonsense, how can one so often be punished so terribly for something they do not even remember from a sinful forgotten past life. In my case, I have had to endure a lifetime the unimaginable pain, horror, the desolation of a severe mental illness. Is this the punishment for something I did in past life, that I have absolutely no recollection. (Manic Depression) 6.) Another view favored by spiritualists and modern day channelers is that between lives we sit in some other dimensions and decide exactly what kind of life we choose to be it beggar, a rich person or whatever. Therefore, our fate is decided by ourselves, what nonsense. 7). What then about souls like Hitler, Stalin, Nero and the numerous depraved people on earth at the moment, did they deliberately choose a life of depraved evil and what they could learn from their wicked actions? They will degenerate further and further through each life as they are totally depraved without any redeeming good qualities what so ever. Surely, this type of person deserves judgment and eternal punishment, not escape into karma. 8). If we look at the out of control increase in the world population we , which is already a frightening 7.2 billion and growing faster and faster by the day. Where are all these people coming from? If karma is true, surely people should be reaching perfection and escaping the cycle of life and the world's population decreasing. Not so? 9). Again, if karma were true we should be observing just the reverse. With more and more people becoming better and better and finally reaching enlightenment and escaping the relentless birth and rebirth with a subsequent decrease in the world population. 10) Although people are no eviler now than they were in the past (middle age horrors as an example), they are also no better, if we read our daily newspaper or listen to the news on the electronic media. We just have to read up on the mechanized world wars of the past century and see the awful weapons humanity has developed and continue to develop to kill one another, with more and more sophisticated tools of death. Where is Karma in all of this? 11). Where are all the enlightened masters? There seems to me so few in these latter days. Please, could one name just one living master for me? 12). A person I would call an enlightened master in present times would be mother Teresa and she did definitely not believe in the law of Karma but believed and practiced active love caring and charity nearly all the years of her long life. 13). If the law of karma is true, why are we still having more and more conflicts and wars all over the planet, instead of peace? 14). How then are the memories some claim to come from past lives? I believe that locked up in our genes and encoded within the colossal D.N.A. molecule racial memories could be stored. Perhaps these ghosts of memories could perhaps leak into the conscious mind of some people who then believe they are remembering past lives. 15) Another fact that, has been proven, is forgotten childhood memories that are remembered in the case of trauma or under hypnoses. 16). My personal search for an explanation has shown not one indisputable past life memory in anyone. All could be explained rationally. 17.) My own personal view on Karma and past life regression is that I hope this awful concept is not true. Who wants to live earthly mortal repeatedly? Anyway, 99.999999999+++ of people just like me have no memories of past lives. 18) In addition, if I lived in the past and have no recollection of that life, the person I was then is truly dead. 19.) I believe I exist now because years ago my beloved parents decided (Not me) to make love. I am sure I did not choose this life and am positive it is the only life I have ever had. What comes after, if anything remains an enigma to me and to everyone else on Earth as well? 20.) I, therefore, reject the concept of karma as a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person. Alan McDougall ©Copyright Alan Grant McDougall 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted July 31, 2016 #2 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Number ONE on your list settled it for me I ahve no idea if we pre existed these bodies but I don't believe there is biblical warrant for re - inhabiting others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 31, 2016 #3 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) Your objection is based I suppose on the Bible (that really is a silly reason for rejecting the beliefs of billions). I could as easily reject Jesus because he is not mentioned in Buddhist writings and the idea of human sacrifice is denounced. You also exhibit far too much bias and ignorance to be declaiming with such assurance. The truth or falsehood of a teaching is not based on whether or not we like it, but on whether or not there is evidence. Your objections seems based on the fact that the teaching has consequences you don't like. The evidence usually cited in favor of rebirth (not "reincarnation" -- a different thing) are reports of deja vu, reports of hypnotic channeling, reports of very young children having memories of past lives (at about age three our memories seem to get a wipe-out). None of this evidence can be said to be scientific, mainly because it is all so personal and anecdotal, but this does not rule it out per se, but only makes it in the realm of things science doesn't normally deal with. Karma is something else, and while there are beliefs that karma is associated with rebirth, this is not an essential ingredient in the idea. Karma is just the idea that what goes around comes around. Criminals in the long run do not prosper, even though they may superficially seem to in rare cases, and doing good for others is the best way to get people to do good for you. It also involves the idea that what we do changes us in subtle ways -- for example the "first murder" is always harder than the next, and being charitable makes it easier to be charitable in future. I think this is a valid way of looking at reality. Edited July 31, 2016 by Frank Merton 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted July 31, 2016 #4 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Alan McDougall said: Why I reject karma and reincarnation Karma is a belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind *snip* It is sad we don't really know , but I am of the belief of not karma but of memories cells passed down, that every living thing experiences that same life. Edited July 31, 2016 by Daughter of the Nine Moons Redundant quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted July 31, 2016 #5 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Your karma is the situation you are in right now. Karma is always in the present. In this view, what's important is not what you did in the past, but what you do right now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted July 31, 2016 #6 Share Posted July 31, 2016 While the OP rejects karma and reincarnation, could they accept the concept of ethos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted July 31, 2016 #7 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The Bible, last time I checked, was about man and God and the covenant betwixt the two. Now, my theology is flexible (for want of a better word) enough to say "in that case, there exists other stuff for folks who don't have signed that covenant", after all, in the Gospel (John I think) Jesus says the only way to HEAVEN is through him. Which can be interpreted as "and there other stuff for other people, but if you want Mansions in the House of God, it's me (Jesus) and no one else." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 31, 2016 #8 Share Posted July 31, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Alan McDougall said: Why I reject karma and reincarnation Karma is a belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind That's not strictly true. "Karma" is the "weight of your actions" and "karmic reincarnation" is how the "weight" you had when you died determines the "level" you attain when you reincarnate. And even that is far too simplistic and so inaccurate to describe the concept of "karma". While I get that you reject the concept because you already hold to different beliefs vis-a-vis death and "rebirth", it's a pity that you don't properly learn the concept before you proclaim why it is "wrong". Instead of inventing all those "reasons" you list, why not just be honest and state you don't really know what the concept of "karma" is, but you are already invested in the Christian bible's version of death and afterlife, so you'll stick with believing in that? Edited July 31, 2016 by Leonardo 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 31, 2016 #9 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Yet you have no problem with the idea of people burning in hell forever because they reject your imaginary friend. Strangely enough your avatar is of such a person. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2016 #10 Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Rlyeh said: Yet you have no problem with the idea of people burning in hell forever because they reject your imaginary friend. Strangely enough your avatar is of such a person. Come on, you know combustion can't be "forever". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrLzs Posted July 31, 2016 #11 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Look, I'm really, really sorry about this, but OP... my karma just ran over your dogma.. sorry, but someone had to.. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendy Demon Posted July 31, 2016 #12 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Who defines "perfection" anyways? If we are to use the christian book as a guide post then this god would make sure it is impossible to ever be perfect thus taking delight in punishing those who can't reach this unobtainable state of "perfection". Also, by whose standard do we assign the meaning of perfection? To a deer, the idea of perfection is to always eat in peace without ever being assaulted by predators and seeing their young reach maturity without injury or predation. For a wolf, however, perfection is being successful in every hunt, every wolf and its mate and cubs always having plenty to eat without worry of lack of prey. Now onto "karma"...to claim that we are being punished for some action in a previous life seems rather silly considering that no one remembers their past life; the idea of "punishment" or rehabilitation relies on a person being cognizant of what action they have committed that has caused harm. Sadly I have read books where some people try to justify child abuse by claiming the child is simply being punished for a past transgression. Seriously? Rationalizing abuse by claiming a tiny child/baby is simply collecting punishment/karmic stuff for something they know nothing of? Sick beyond words. Also if I was to accept the concept of reincarnation then why must the outcome be "perfection"? What then? Just sit back and sneer at those who are not like the "ascended"? We get plenty of that right here in real life, don't need it from a fictional spirit world. Furthermore, if we are to assume that a spirit is really just a condensed form of some sort of energy then when its vessel or container has outlived its own lifespan then how is this "energy" going to maintain the same form it held when it was contained? It can't, not anymore than water can hold the shape of a carafe once it is shattered. The water leaks out and dissipated; some of it will readily vaporize while some will be absorbed by the ground to be used by plants or animals. Those water molecules will invariably join with other water molecules to, at some point, condense and fall again as precipitation. None of those molecules are going to somehow, on their own, maintain the shape of the carafe that it may have been in once either. It seems that the human energy (whatever that may mean) is the same as anything else, once it is no longer bound by the vessel containing it, it will just dissipate like air from a leaky balloon to go wherever the environment takes it. I will only think about accepting the validity of karma once I see real, concrete proof and not myths, fables, stories and anecdotes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 31, 2016 #13 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Typical ... the OP wrongly defines a term , due to ignorance of the subject , then goes about abusing his own misunderstanding of it ! Then puts that up as some type of copy rite wisdom ... stick to the New Age section thanks . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted July 31, 2016 #14 Share Posted July 31, 2016 doesnt his point 20 cancel out his point 1 anyway ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted July 31, 2016 Author #15 Share Posted July 31, 2016 19 hours ago, StarMountainKid said: Your karma is the situation you are in right now. Karma is always in the present. In this view, what's important is not what you did in the past, but what you do right now. I do believe in a type of karma, in this earthly life, in that if we fail at something we will have to learn how to overcome that shortcoming or repeat it over again. Something like a school if you like, in which you can only progress to a higher class if you have passed the test in a lower class. If I have any say in the matter then I would insist that I never return to this bleak human condition in which I must become a baby again go through all the trials of life get old and have to face the trauma of physical death over and over again. I want to ascend into a higher realm of existence moving ever and ever closer to the infinite light of the divine mind. After all, life is school? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted July 31, 2016 #16 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The Karmic cycle is just that though Alan, each pass through the realms mundane bring you closer to Nervana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 1, 2016 #17 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Karma comes in two flavors. Vedic karma and Buddhist Karma. Vedic karma is your actions in this life affect your next incarnation. If you do good in this life then you will have good Karma in the the next life and vice versa. In Buddhism karma is talking about this life. Karma really means action. I do good things you get good karma back, bad you get bad karma. I think in the Bible you find something to the effect, you reap what you sow. The whole point of Buddhism is to not have a next life and get off the cycle of life and death. When It comes to life after death scenarios neither reincarnation or heaven really have anything to back up them up. So it doesn't matter what you choose to believe in. There is only one way to find out for sure and I think I'll wait be bit longer. I just try to live happy in this life and not worry about what comes after. Live in the now, it is much easier. . 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted August 1, 2016 #18 Share Posted August 1, 2016 6 hours ago, back to earth said: doesnt his point 20 cancel out his point 1 anyway ? Probably. I got distracted by the points in the list not being discrete. It seemed the whole post was begging the question - nice abuse of the word logic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted August 1, 2016 #19 Share Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/31/2016 at 8:38 AM, StarMountainKid said: Your karma is the situation you are in right now. Karma is always in the present. In this view, what's important is not what you did in the past, but what you do right now. I don't understand you. Karma is of course the situation you are in right now but what you did in the past does seem to have an important role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted August 1, 2016 #20 Share Posted August 1, 2016 4 hours ago, GreenmansGod said: Karma comes in two flavors. Vedic karma and Buddhist Karma. Vedic karma is your actions in this life affect your next incarnation. If you do good in this life then you will have good Karma in the the next life and vice versa. In Buddhism karma is talking about this life. Karma really means action. I do good things you get good karma back, bad you get bad karma. I think in the Bible you find something to the effect, you reap what you sow. The whole point of Buddhism is to not have a next life and get off the cycle of life and death. When It comes to life after death scenarios neither reincarnation or heaven really have anything to back up them up. So it doesn't matter what you choose to believe in. There is only one way to find out for sure and I think I'll wait be bit longer. I just try to live happy in this life and not worry about what comes after. Live in the now, it is much easier. . Of course some Buddhists manage to have both Heaven/Hell and rebirth. In fact they have dozens of both heavens and dozens of hells, where you can be reborn if another earthly life is not to your liking (or your karma somehow puts you there). Then again one can be reborn a god and get to live in glorious realms until the karma whatever goodness you did to cause that wears out. One thing about karma -- it is just. You are not punished for eternity or rewarded for eternity for the acts of a short human lifetime. That is the thing to remember about karmic thinking -- it is mechanical. There is no divine judgment -- it is all automatic. It is not punishment and reward but just consequences. Let me also repeat the fallacy of thinking something is true or false because we like it. That is not relevant in anything in life. We may not like the idea that someone was born blind and deformed because they were evil when they were a different person (obviously such an idea is horrible and one of the things I don't like about popular Buddhism), but because I don't like it does not make it false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted August 1, 2016 Author #21 Share Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/31/2016 at 3:24 AM, Frank Merton said: Your objection is based I suppose on the Bible (that really is a silly reason for rejecting the beliefs of billions). I could as easily reject Jesus because he is not mentioned in Buddhist writings and the idea of human sacrifice is denounced. You also exhibit far too much bias and ignorance to be declaiming with such assurance. The truth or falsehood of a teaching is not based on whether or not we like it, but on whether or not there is evidence. Your objections seems based on the fact that the teaching has consequences you don't like. The evidence usually cited in favor of rebirth (not "reincarnation" -- a different thing) are reports of deja vu, reports of hypnotic channeling, reports of very young children having memories of past lives (at about age three our memories seem to get a wipe-out). None of this evidence can be said to be scientific, mainly because it is all so personal and anecdotal, but this does not rule it out per se, but only makes it in the realm of things science doesn't normally deal with. Karma is something else, and while there are beliefs that karma is associated with rebirth, this is not an essential ingredient in the idea. Karma is just the idea that what goes around comes around. Criminals in the long run do not prosper, even though they may superficially seem to in rare cases, and doing good for others is the best way to get people to do good for you. It also involves the idea that what we do changes us in subtle ways -- for example the "first murder" is always harder than the next, and being charitable makes it easier to be charitable in future. I think this is a valid way of looking at reality. Believing something does not make it true even if it is believed by millions! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted August 1, 2016 #22 Share Posted August 1, 2016 58 minutes ago, Alan McDougall said: Believing something does not make it true even if it is believed by millions! I'm glad you realize why I don't believe the Bible. It astonishes me that that is all you have to say; why don't you admit you are ignorant of the subject and not qualified to talk about it, and your rejection is just simply bias. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted August 1, 2016 #23 Share Posted August 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Frank Merton said: I don't understand you. Karma is of course the situation you are in right now but what you did in the past does seem to have an important role. Yes, but what you have done in the past is in the past. What you do now is what is important. Your future karma depends on what you are doing this very moment. Now is the only time we have to conduct our life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmbiguousInsight Posted August 1, 2016 #24 Share Posted August 1, 2016 All I derived from this is "karma and everything stated here is asenine because bible". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted August 1, 2016 #25 Share Posted August 1, 2016 9 hours ago, Frank Merton said: Of course some Buddhists manage to have both Heaven/Hell and rebirth. In fact they have dozens of both heavens and dozens of hells, where you can be reborn if another earthly life is not to your liking (or your karma somehow puts you there). Then again one can be reborn a god and get to live in glorious realms until the karma whatever goodness you did to cause that wears out. One thing about karma -- it is just. You are not punished for eternity or rewarded for eternity for the acts of a short human lifetime. That is the thing to remember about karmic thinking -- it is mechanical. There is no divine judgment -- it is all automatic. It is not punishment and reward but just consequences. Let me also repeat the fallacy of thinking something is true or false because we like it. That is not relevant in anything in life. We may not like the idea that someone was born blind and deformed because they were evil when they were a different person (obviously such an idea is horrible and one of the things I don't like about popular Buddhism), but because I don't like it does not make it false. Most of the Buddhist I know here in the States are either pantheists or atheist and they have kind of guided my understanding of Buddhism in that direction. Yup, I agree karma is mechanical and is really consequences. Like anything else doesn't always work the way we would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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