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Ukrainian EuroMaidan 'Revolution'


Phaeton80

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Found this to be extremely insightful commentary on the Ukrainian situation. The following content is not for those that like / need to cling to the mainstream narrative in an effort to passionately maintain their (comforting) world view.

 

 

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.

very good - thanks

America's sneaky and aggressive attitude towards Russia is the biggest threat to world peace at the moment IMO -

It's hard to fathom what the hell they are up to in the long term - when they are close allies with the likes of Saudi Arabia -
and give military backing to so called ''''moderate''' rebels in Syria to get them to help remove the secular Assad government -
when everyone knows the rebels are more or less all Islamists and Al Qaeda / IS affiliates now - 

can it all be about the American economy ?

nothing else makes any sense

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28 minutes ago, bee said:

America's sneaky and aggressive attitude towards Russia is the biggest threat to world peace at the moment IMO -

It's a two way street unfortunately.

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3 minutes ago, Clair said:

It's a two way street unfortunately.

.

I see no evidence of Russian aggression towards America at the moment - 

like the man in the video said (did you watch the video) - Putin / Russia has shown great restraint under severe provocation -
regarding the Ukraine Coup and the military posturing around it's border - (words to that effect)

.
 

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1 hour ago, bee said:

.

very good - thanks

America's sneaky and aggressive attitude towards Russia is the biggest threat to world peace at the moment IMO -

It's hard to fathom what the hell they are up to in the long term - when they are close allies with the likes of Saudi Arabia -
and give military backing to so called ''''moderate''' rebels in Syria to get them to help remove the secular Assad government -
when everyone knows the rebels are more or less all Islamists and Al Qaeda / IS affiliates now - 

can it all be about the American economy ?

nothing else makes any sense

 

The ME is essential for the desired 'full spectrum dominance'. See Wolfowitz doctrine.

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46 minutes ago, bee said:

.I see no evidence of Russian aggression towards America at the moment - 

like the man in the video said (did you watch the video) - Putin / Russia has shown great restraint under severe provocation -
regarding the Ukraine Coup and the military posturing around it's border - (words to that effect)

Yes I did watch the video in spite of the fact that McGovern puts me to sleep. I also understand the issue and that is that Russia is reacting to supposedly sneaky moves to expand NATO to their border. Oh boo hoo hoo. The Ukraine is an independent country; one that does not fall under Russia's sphere of influence. It's obvious that Russia has it's own interests there, and no one should for a moment think that they are not doing everything possible to see those interests through. As for behaving with restraint, if dismembering the Ukraine is restraint, then yeah okay.

It's a two-way game, it always has been. It always will be.

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8 minutes ago, Clair said:

Yes I did watch the video in spite of the fact that McGovern puts me to sleep. I also understand the issue and that is that Russia is reacting to supposedly sneaky moves to expand NATO to their border. Oh boo hoo hoo. The Ukraine is an independent country; one that does not fall under Russia's sphere of influence. It's obvious that Russia has it's own interests there, and no one should for a moment think that they are not doing everything possible to see those interests through. As for behaving with restraint, if dismembering the Ukraine is restraint, then yeah okay.

It's a two-way game, it always has been. It always will be.

.

yes --- boo hoo hoo - it's an aggressive and disrespectful move - if Russia positioned it's weapons along
the Mexico / USA border  I don't think it would be tolerated - not for a minute - 

We should be grateful that Putin and Russia are exercising mature restraint while America behaves like a reckless teenager -

Putting us all at risk -

no wonder they are worried about Trump getting to be President - he wants to co exist peacefully with Russia -

It's ok for the US playing war games and power games from a distance - from another continent - but it is just plain wrong
what they are doing - IMO

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26 minutes ago, Clair said:

 As for behaving with restraint, if dismembering the Ukraine is restraint, then yeah okay.

.

if that's what you are claiming then you didn't watch the video or if you did you must think the information is incorrect - 

.

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2 hours ago, bee said:

.yes --- boo hoo hoo - it's an aggressive and disrespectful move - if Russia positioned it's weapons along
the Mexico / USA border  I don't think it would be tolerated - not for a minute - 

We should be grateful that Putin and Russia are exercising mature restraint while America behaves like a reckless teenager -

Putting us all at risk -

no wonder they are worried about Trump getting to be President - he wants to co exist peacefully with Russia -

It's ok for the US playing war games and power games from a distance - from another continent - but it is just plain wrong
what they are doing - IMO

First of all, I did watch that video, although I admit I might have dozed off a couple of times. I'm not easily persuaded by McGovern and do not always agree with his perspective. His is just one opinion. As for the US, exactly how far away should we play our war games? Nine of Russia's neighboring countries are members of NATO. One guess as to why they joined. Since then they have been under constant political, military, and economic pressure. They are fearful and have every reason to be. As for reckless teen behavior, I would suggest that Russia's so-called 'snap military exercises' designed to impress and intimidate neighboring countries (and the US) are a prime example of it.

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16 hours ago, Clair said:

First of all, I did watch that video, although I admit I might have dozed off a couple of times. I'm not easily persuaded by McGovern and do not always agree with his perspective. His is just one opinion. As for the US, exactly how far away should we play our war games? Nine of Russia's neighboring countries are members of NATO. One guess as to why they joined. Since then they have been under constant political, military, and economic pressure. They are fearful and have every reason to be. As for reckless teen behavior, I would suggest that Russia's so-called 'snap military exercises' designed to impress and intimidate neighboring countries (and the US) are a prime example of it.

 

The main point here is the true nature of the socalled Maidan revolution, with a rich plethora of clear indications this socalled revolution was planned, financed and backed by US players. The subsequent demonisation of Putin in an effort to sway public opinion against him, so as to continue the strategical move towards his borders without any significant public outcry. Which starkly reminds of.. well.. the lionpart of the well known sequential ME military interventions in the last decade or so, but thats beside the (OP) point.

What exactly your position is in this context remains unclear, besides your quasi derogatory 'boo hoo' remarks. Im very interested to hear what you do not agree with specifically, and why (something more than 'his is just one opinion'). He is basing his opinion on rather explicit facts. Now he could be misinterpreting these facts, Id like to hear it. If the facts arent facts, in your opinion, Id like to hear it.

Edited by Phaeton80
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My position was made clear from the start. It is a two-way game. It always has been and always will be. But sure, I will be happy to be the first here to offer an opinion on Maidan specifically. That "rich plethora of indications" you mention is nowhere near that, by the way. Indeed, McGovern himself has little to go with, aside from a few facts and a whole lot of speculation. If I am incorrect, then I would like to see that plethora of evidence, because I cannot find it. Anyway..

It's public knowledge that the US State Department gave the Ukraine (through USAID) more than $5 billion between 1991 and 2014. Whilst there's no question the motive behind the money is a political one, there is no evidence that any part of it was used to finance the Maidan protests. Putin obviously disagrees. At the same time Russia has spent $130 million (in the last five years) funding various organizations in that region, particularly in the Ukraine. The money has been spent on the usual. You know like fear-mongering and attempts to influence public opinion against the West.

And then there's that infamous audiotape that was leaked (one guess as to who leaked it). The conversation between Nuland and Pyatt focused on an exchange of views on the crisis and their opinions of various opposition leaders (obviously favoring Yatsenyuk over the other one). The Russians then used the tape in an attempt to convince the Ukraine that the US was funding and arming the protestors. So the Russians weren't idly standing by. They were doing everything possible to inflame the situation and to find a way to justify a possible intervention. Ah yes, and then there was that Ukrainian protest leader that was kidnapped and tortured by the Russians and forced to admit to being a CIA spy (even though it was not true). Anyway, the conversation proved we were in deeper than we indicated, but it's still not proof that we funded Maidan.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it and we can continue the discussion from there. As for my supposedly quasi-derogatory boo hoo comment, it still stands. The Russians can cry me a river all they want. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Oh and as an aside, it seemed to me that McGovern was more annoyed by our use of the expression 'God Bless America' than he was of our involvement in the Ukraine. No surprise there.

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On 8 August 2016 at 5:31 AM, bee said:

.

I see no evidence of Russian aggression towards America at the moment - 

like the man in the video said (did you watch the video) - Putin / Russia has shown great restraint under severe provocation -
regarding the Ukraine Coup and the military posturing around it's border - (words to that effect)

.
 

I think that if the roles were reversed and Russia was the dominate superpower then it would also be meddling in the affairs and spheres of influence of its once rival. But that doesn't excuse America's role in destabilising Ukraine.   

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2 hours ago, Leto_loves_melange said:

I think that if the roles were reversed and Russia was the dominate superpower then it would also be meddling in the affairs and spheres of influence of its once rival. But that doesn't excuse America's role in destabilising Ukraine.   

But Russia is indeed meddling in the Ukraine. Indeed, they've been trying to meddle all over the Baltic and who knows where else for years. They're even meddling in our presidential elections. As for the US meddling in Russia's former so-called sphere of influence, most of the countries there are NATO members, so um yeah, we will meddle because we are obligated to. Also, don't forget the Baltic states were forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, so Russia's so called sphere of influence consisted mostly of ill-gotten gains.

As for the Ukraine, the US, Russia and GB all signed the Budapest Memorandum. This agreement alone gave the US the legal right to support the Ukraine after Russia invaded Crimea (an act that was illegal under international law by the way). The Ukraine also borders four NATO countries. Any military conflict in the Ukraine would have potential consequences for those NATO countries, so the US is obligated to ensure that a destabilized Ukraine does not happen.

And as for Maidan, I don't care what the Russians and truthers like McGovern say, there is no evidence to suggest that the roots of those protests were not domestic. Russia's claims that the US funneled money to the anti-Yanukovych protesters are totally without merit.

If there's anyone to blame for having caused the Maidan protests it's Yanukovych and the secret deal he struck with Putin. He should have signed the EU Association Agreement as he promised. It was that act, and that act alone that was the catalyst for the Maidan protests.

Edited by Clair
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1 hour ago, Clair said:

But Russia is indeed meddling in the Ukraine. Indeed, they've been trying to meddle all over the Baltic and who knows where else for years. They're even meddling in our presidential elections. As for the US meddling in Russia's former so-called sphere of influence, most of the countries there are NATO members, so um yeah, we will meddle because we are obligated to. Also, don't forget the Baltic states were forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, so Russia's so called sphere of influence consisted mostly of ill-gotten gains.

As for the Ukraine, the US, Russia and GB all signed the Budapest Memorandum. This agreement alone gave the US the legal right to support the Ukraine after Russia invaded Crimea (an act that was illegal under international law by the way). The Ukraine also borders four NATO countries. Any military conflict in the Ukraine would have potential consequences for those NATO countries, so the US is obligated to ensure that a destabilized Ukraine does not happen.

And as for Maidan, I don't care what the Russians and truthers like McGovern say, there is no evidence to suggest that the roots of those protests were not domestic. Russia's claims that the US funneled money to the anti-Yanukovych protesters are totally without merit.

If there's anyone to blame for having caused the Maidan protests it's Yanukovych and the secret deal he struck with Putin. He should have signed the EU Association Agreement as he promised. It was that act, and that act alone that was the catalyst for the Maidan protests.

I'm well aware that Russia is meddling in the affairs of other country's. They all do including America. Just look at what is happening in Turkey, a NATO member and American ally. It's no different than what is happening in Ukraine and Russia. If the Russians intervened and enacted regime change in Turkey, the West would be up in arms. If Russia had overthrown the government in Mexico and signed a trade agreement America would have cut Mexico in two. So how is the current situation in Ukraine any different? The point Im trying to make is that just like the cold war, where there were area's of demarcation, where red lines were drawn and protected so are the current ones in Russia's sphere of influence. America moving into Russia's sphere is provocative. Not saying that its wrong... just that America and the EU seriously should have expected some reaction and shouldn't be surprised that Putin isn't going down without a fight. 

Those new NATO members you speak of at one stage were Soviet client states. NATO has encroached into Russia's near abroad and i don't believe that the payoff is worthy all the effort of antagonising a nuclear power and obviously one with a lot of political and military clout. Concerning the Baltic's, they contain large amounts of indigenous Russians, just like Ukraine. Looking at where America and the West have intervened, places like Yugoslavia and the dismantling of the Soviet Union one can draw parallel's with what is happening in Ukraine and the Baltic's where half the country identifies with Russia and the other half is ethnically Russia.

Maidan removed a democratically elected government. This is a undeniable fact. The Russian friendly government was overthrown and a Western friendly one installed. For a country split evenly between the two camps... its hard to say that Maidan was a good thing or fair. Russia responded to this. (equally wrong). Now we can say that the West had nothing to do with it (which i don't believe), but the fact that the West supported the result was undemocratic to say the least. Maidan was a coup de tat in ever sense of the word. 

Yanukovych should have signed the agreement if thats what his people wanted BUT Porochenko shouldn't have risked the unity of his country and played into Putins hands. either. Ukraine will never be a whole country again. Smart heads should have prevailed and Russia should have also be offered the same deal therefore negating and diffusing any tension. 

Generally Maidan was a U.S. foreign policy custer*****. Not Obama's finest moment and one that legitimised and provided the impetus for Russia's new found assertiveness. Like in the recent Turkish coup the one in Ukraine should have been better handled. There is no right or wrong...Russia played a better hand thats all. Even prominent Americans like Trump and Mcgovern agree.          

Edited by Leto_loves_melange
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21 hours ago, Clair said:

My position was made clear from the start. It is a two-way game. It always has been and always will be. But sure, I will be happy to be the first here to offer an opinion on Maidan specifically. That "rich plethora of indications" you mention is nowhere near that, by the way. Indeed, McGovern himself has little to go with, aside from a few facts and a whole lot of speculation. If I am incorrect, then I would like to see that plethora of evidence, because I cannot find it. Anyway..

It's public knowledge that the US State Department gave the Ukraine (through USAID) more than $5 billion between 1991 and 2014. Whilst there's no question the motive behind the money is a political one, there is no evidence that any part of it was used to finance the Maidan protests. Putin obviously disagrees. At the same time Russia has spent $130 million (in the last five years) funding various organizations in that region, particularly in the Ukraine. The money has been spent on the usual. You know like fear-mongering and attempts to influence public opinion against the West.

And then there's that infamous audiotape that was leaked (one guess as to who leaked it). The conversation between Nuland and Pyatt focused on an exchange of views on the crisis and their opinions of various opposition leaders (obviously favoring Yatsenyuk over the other one). The Russians then used the tape in an attempt to convince the Ukraine that the US was funding and arming the protestors. So the Russians weren't idly standing by. They were doing everything possible to inflame the situation and to find a way to justify a possible intervention. Ah yes, and then there was that Ukrainian protest leader that was kidnapped and tortured by the Russians and forced to admit to being a CIA spy (even though it was not true). Anyway, the conversation proved we were in deeper than we indicated, but it's still not proof that we funded Maidan.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it and we can continue the discussion from there. As for my supposedly quasi-derogatory boo hoo comment, it still stands. The Russians can cry me a river all they want. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Oh and as an aside, it seemed to me that McGovern was more annoyed by our use of the expression 'God Bless America' than he was of our involvement in the Ukraine. No surprise there.

 

I appreciate that, remember I said indications (although very convincing ones imo), not proof. So I'm to understand you do not subscribe to the notion were dealing with a US manufactured coup here?

Completely agree this is a two way game, always was and always will be. Thats not the issue I think. I also think youre trying pretty hard to avoid the most plausible scenario. But I have no proof, only indications. ;-)

Edited by Phaeton80
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5 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

I appreciate that, remember I said indications (although very convincing ones imo), not proof. So I'm to understand you do not subscribe to the notion were dealing with a US manufactured coup here?

Completely agree this is a two way game, always was and always will be. Thats not the issue I think. I also think youre trying pretty hard to avoid the most plausible scenario. But I have no proof, only indications. ;-)

My answer to your question is a definitive yes. The coup in my opinion was not manufactured by the US. All indications are that it was a grassroots protest comprising people from all professions and walks of life. There is no evidence (apart from unproven theories spouted by leftists, conspiracy theorists and others with an agenda or axe to grind) to suggest otherwise.

As for "trying pretty hard to avoid the most plausible scenario", you have yet to present it to me. At least from any credible sources. Ray McGovern is a known conspiracy theorist and truther (someone who believes that the US government, not terrorists, orchestrated 9/11). His theories are often inane, such as the time he suggested Israel was going to attack Texas or some place like that. CounterPunch are anti-Semitic muckrakers and extreme leftists. Alexander Cockburn, for example, is a known Marxist and socialist. So is his brother. Their father was a member of the Communist party and worked closely with the Soviet agents who orchestrated acts of violence against the anti-Stalinist left. As for CounterPunch's extreme anti-Semitism, they've gone so far as to suggest the Holocaust never happened. So yeah, their bias and credibility issues are rather obvious.

However, if during your research you were able to come up with other, more neutral, sources, I would be more than willing to read them.

Edited by Clair
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13 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

I appreciate that, remember I said indications (although very convincing ones imo), not proof. So I'm to understand you do not subscribe to the notion were dealing with a US manufactured coup here?

Completely agree this is a two way game, always was and always will be. Thats not the issue I think. I also think youre trying pretty hard to avoid the most plausible scenario. But I have no proof, only indications. ;-)

.

This from the link above must be the heart of the matter - military strategy - and the importance of Ukraine -
 

Let’s be clear about what is at stake here:     NATO missiles on the adjacent Ukraine border aimed directly at Russia would make that country extremely vulnerable to Western goals and destabilization efforts while threatening Russia’s only water access to its naval fleet in Crimean peninsula, the Balkans, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East – and not the least of which would allow world economicdominance by the US, the European Union, the IMF, World Bank and international financiers all of whom had already brought staggering suffering to millions around the globe.

.

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1 hour ago, bee said:

.

I stumbled on this video - 

 

 

 

Right... He forgot to mention that Obama personally was setting fires in Siberia for years, and had a plan to spread anthrax over Russia... OMG, it's true, it did happened...

Kremlin's sockpuppet, nothing more.

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1 hour ago, bmk1245 said:

Right... He forgot to mention that Obama personally was setting fires in Siberia for years, and had a plan to spread anthrax over Russia... OMG, it's true, it did happened...

Kremlin's sockpuppet, nothing more.

.

oh hello - I wondered how long it would be before you turned up - 

my video hit a nerve then - :) - 

.

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49 minutes ago, bee said:

.

oh hello - I wondered how long it would be before you turned up - 

my video hit a nerve then - :) - 

.

After seeing how Russkies are pushing outright lies on their main channels, video that can hit my nerves doesn't exist yet.

But hey, here is a video (allegedly proving what sockpuppet is saying) from that event:

Can you point out timeframes (min:sec), proving what have been said in your video.

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27 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

After seeing how Russkies are pushing outright lies on their main channels, video that can hit my nerves doesn't exist yet.

But hey, here is a video (allegedly proving what sockpuppet is saying) from that event:

Can you point out timeframes (min:sec), proving what have been said in your video.

.

:D

I think people are perfectly capable of looking at my vid and your vid and drawing their own conclusions  -

if they are interested enough and want to  - I've just started watching it and will let you know if there's anything
I want to comment on - 

 

edit to add --- just had a thought - have you been on one of the American led Social Media courses...? 
I expect your country, Lithuania, would be one of the demographic targets.... .. :innocent:
 

.

 

Edited by bee
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On 08/08/2016 at 5:03 PM, Phaeton80 said:

 

The main point here is the true nature of the socalled Maidan revolution, with a rich plethora of clear indications this socalled revolution was planned, financed and backed by US players.

And the previous Ukrainian Administration was heavily underwritten by Russian interests. Are you, and McGovern, going to suggest that administration was representative of a "free and independent Ukraine"?

Both Russia and the US are guilty of treating other sovereign nations like pieces on a chess-board. Demonising one does not make the other the "angel" here. If America is seen to be more aggressive than Russia, consider that may only be because the Russian aggression may be more cleverly concealed.

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1 hour ago, Leonardo said:

And the previous Ukrainian Administration was heavily underwritten by Russian interests. Are you, and McGovern, going to suggest that administration was representative of a "free and independent Ukraine"?

Both Russia and the US are guilty of treating other sovereign nations like pieces on a chess-board. Demonising one does not make the other the "angel" here. If America is seen to be more aggressive than Russia, consider that may only be because the Russian aggression may be more cleverly concealed.

 

The two way street was already establsihed. Question is besides the point, Leo. No one is claiming the former admin was ideal, or that Putin is 'an angel'. Can we not discuss the true nature of the Maidan event without making this another 'but the other is just as bad' cul de sac?

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16 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

The two way street was already establsihed. Question is besides the point, Leo. No one is claiming the former admin was ideal, or that Putin is 'an angel'. Can we not discuss the true nature of the Maidan event without making this another 'but the other is just as bad' cul de sac?

Not without establishing the players involved; their actions and motivations - no, we can't. Sure, you can speculate on the incident and cast blame where and upon whomever you want - but that won't be the "true nature of the Maidan event".

The US is no more or less "the Great Satan" than Russia, China, the UK or any number of other countries who feel it is their right to interfere in the affairs of other sovereign nations, are. Discussing what happened in the Ukraine by casting it as the actions of one of these international "players" only promotes bias, when it is all of them who hold some degree of culpability/responsibility because of their interventionist attitudes.

What happened in the Ukraine wasn't an isolated incident that occurred in a void, but one domino in a long chain of cause-and-effect as nations struggle against one another to inflict their own version of "right" upon each other. In doing this none of them are "right".

Edited by Leonardo
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