eight bits Posted September 27, 2016 #51 Share Posted September 27, 2016 Doug Quote Maybe the original research articles provided some evidence, but if so, that has not been presented in the text. So here we are - back at square one. A good summary of the body of evidence generally recognized among scholars: http://peterkirby.com/the-best-case-for-jesus.html (and, no, the family tomb doesn't make the cut, nor would a dicey bone box coming from the same place help much). psyche (pointing back to the OP) Quote but how did he become interpreted as a divine being? That seems fairly straightforward. Others had seen Jesus' spectre after he was killed, then so did Paul. That ghosts generally had quasi-divine attributes was in the pagan culture, too. Pliny the Younger wrote to Sura Quote I am extremely desirous therefore to know whether you believe in the existence of phantasms, and that they have a real form, and are a sort of divinities, or only the visionary impressions of a terrified imagination. http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html The linked source translates as "ghost" what I translate as "phantasm." In the letter, three examples of phantasm are discussed, a minor goddess, a human revenant and a sort of poltergeist. We make distinctions that Pliny seems not to make. Pliny's human ghost shares a category with a bona fide divinity. A Hellenized Jew, like Paul, would have little difficulty merging a ghost with an angel, say. Only a need to maintain a monotheistic framework prevents angels from being counted as gods. They're the same kind of critter. Take that idea to an audience who has no real problem with keeping as many gods as they like, and they will come up with the Godman Jesus in full. Throw in a bird and a new arithmetic (1+1+1 = 1, but also 3), and bingo, you've got a monotheism with more than one divine person. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted September 27, 2016 #52 Share Posted September 27, 2016 I picked up Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World again this morning (out of absolute boredom) and flash backed to Chapter 7 ... pdf link ~ Quote ... may profess to carry messages between God and man , disguising themselves as angels of the Lord , but this pose is a snare to lure us to our destruction . They can assume any form, and know many things - 'demon ' means 'knowledge' in Greek* - especially about the material world . *** ... Despite successive waves of rationalist , Persian , Jewish, Christian and Muslim world views, despite revolutionary social, political and philosophical ferment , the existence , much of the character , and even the name of demons remained unchanged from Hesiod to the Crusades . (* 'Science ' means 'knowledge ' in Latin. A jurisdictional dispute is exposed, even if we look no further. ) The Demon-Haunted World Science as a Candle in the Dark Carl Sagan ~ ~ running time 02.47.01 I don't know what I'll ever do without this little gem of a publication ... Thanks Carl ... for being the beacon in my darkness ... ~ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted September 27, 2016 #53 Share Posted September 27, 2016 3ye The business where the aliens are the new demons, Carl Jung pretty much agrees. Probably Jung and Sagan didn't agree on much, but this is an exception. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted September 27, 2016 #54 Share Posted September 27, 2016 12 hours ago, eight bits said: psyche (pointing back to the OP) That seems fairly straightforward. Others had seen Jesus' spectre after he was killed, then so did Paul. That ghosts generally had quasi-divine attributes was in the pagan culture, too. Pliny the Younger wrote to Sura http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html The linked source translates as "ghost" what I translate as "phantasm." In the letter, three examples of phantasm are discussed, a minor goddess, a human revenant and a sort of poltergeist. We make distinctions that Pliny seems not to make. Pliny's human ghost shares a category with a bona fide divinity. A Hellenized Jew, like Paul, would have little difficulty merging a ghost with an angel, say. Only a need to maintain a monotheistic framework prevents angels from being counted as gods. They're the same kind of critter. Take that idea to an audience who has no real problem with keeping as many gods as they like, and they will come up with the Godman Jesus in full. Throw in a bird and a new arithmetic (1+1+1 = 1, but also 3), and bingo, you've got a monotheism with more than one divine person. Thank you for that perspective, very interesting thought. However, would that not make any and every Ghost divine? What would set Jesus apart and make him the Son of God over other spectres? That would only ring true if Jesus considered "The First Spectre" would it not? And, if the Magi are genuine, then they made the distinction at birth? Or Herod with the massacre of the innocents? There seems to be much of the tale of Gilgamesh attributed to miracles and Jesus, I cannot help but be suspicious that it had quite some influence in creating what we know as Jesus, Son of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted September 27, 2016 #55 Share Posted September 27, 2016 @eight bits I wasn't aware of that ... come to think of it I'm not much about Jungian either ... more of a Freud of his early years ... he kinda lost me along the way ~ ~ 8 minutes ago, eight bits said: 3ye The business where the aliens are the new demons, Carl Jung pretty much agrees. Probably Jung and Sagan didn't agree on much, but this is an exception. ~ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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