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A Higher Power


mindpurge

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Hi there,

I'm going to make this really short to start off the opening post.

I want to know, from those that are extremely skeptical about spirituality, why it is uncomfortable or simply wrong to believe in a higher power, a divine intelligence.

I'm not Christian, nor am I religious, however I do strongly believe in god. I don't read the bible, because the bible was written by man, imperfect people. I do however believe in a man that was referred to as Christ, I believe in the 10 Commandments, I believe in divinity and I believe in the fight between Good vs Evil - and I do believe Evil is winning at this time. The reason Evil is winning is because I believe god gave man free will, and it is our chain of choices we've allowed to happen over time that has led up to our immoral world.

I also believe that in the end, nothing matters, as our souls recycle into new life, however the limit of our biological brain does not allow us to remember previous lives, we are handicapped by our mortal biological limit. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

I do not intend to influence anyone, that's not what I want to do here, and I do not mean to degrade or talk down at anyone, that's not my intentions at all.

I simply feel that a lot (not all) people that refuse to believe in a Divine Higher Power, are simply making those choices because of religion, and not looking at the biggest picture. Not all of you, but many.

Thank you for your time :)

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Christ was the first Christian. if you follow him and the 10 commandments, you are a Christian too. But probably a better one than most, since the rest can get sidetracked with all the additional mess and dogma within the Bible. There's nothing wrong with that, or a conviction of the existence of a Higher Power. Some people feel uncomfortable with that as it is unprovable or unverifiable, so they dismiss it, and that's fine too. Religion, and spirituality in general, is a personal path. Preaching and conversion are not Christian attitudes in my opinion, as they assume the role of Christ, and I think that teacher came and went. The legacy is here, and should be practiced individually, and privately for that matter.

 

I don't believe in God, but I do believe in the human soul. Or let's say Consciousness. I'm more comfortable with that label. Which is why it was hard for me to define myself when asked about these things. I'm not religious, I'm not exactly agnostic as well, but I'm not atheist either. So is that Higher Power? I don't know. I like the idea of karma and reincarnation, it kind of jives with some personal experiences of mine, so I guess that would be some kind of mechanism of "Higher Power" for me.

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The human mind is capable of believing anything.

From a child believing in Santa, to a full on schizophrenic believing in people with laser eyes out to get them.

I see nothing noble, or praise worthy in not respecting the mind. Especially in times when we need the modern part of the brain the most.

It's in people's minds unless proven otherwise.

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Belief is at its core to me, laziness.  And it is comforting.  My original beliefs were founded on the basis of "this is how it was presented to me and I'm not inclined to disbelieve the adults around me who wouldn't lie to me" 

However, as my mind began to question some of the more ridiculous and patently insane ideas, to not then go head long into the questioning of why I believed what I did and how those beliefs were constructed to begin with, would be settling into an existence created for me, by people no longer alive, who lacked the capacity, or the desire to explore the unknown or accept that they just don't know so instead let's just adopt this notion from yet someone else and believe it.  Then whenever we will come up with rejection answers whenever confronted by either a lack of evidence, or outright evidence that is contrary and points out the cognitive dissonance in our adopted view of reality.

Reality tunnels are formed by age 7 roughly and are created by the reward/punishment system of our family and culture.  They are usually then in place and are nigh on impossible to deconstruct without a driving need to discover and a strong resolve to dive head long into every instance of cognitive dissonance one encounters in their view of life, to see if it is a result of experience, or merely an adoption of what was forcibly reinforced into us by the culture of our birth and our family.

 

Researchers place eleven monkeys in a room.  In this room is a ladder and on the ladder sits a banana.  As soon as a monkey climbs the ladder and touches the banana, sprinklers dowse the entire room with ice cold water.  Very soon, when any monkey goes to touch the banana, the other monkeys gang up and prevent any attempt to get the banana.

Now, the researchers observing the monkeys take one monkey out and replace it with another, who, having no reason not to, goes up the ladder to grab the banana.  Before she can however, the others all grab her and beat her until she stops.  She has no idea why, yet she soon stops going for the banana also, not wanting to raise the anger of her group.

Now, a second of the original eleven monkeys is taken out and replaced by a second new monkey.  And this fella, goes right for the banana.  Now the nine original monkeys are having none of it and attack outright before he even gets up the ladder... and our first transplant even joins in, with no real reason for why she is preventing the fellow from grabbing the banana that she too desired naturally, but she is reassured of her place and acceptance in the group because she is no longer the target of punishment.  Her reward is a lack of punishment and here you can even train someone without a reward, but by mere withholding of punishment instead.

Eventually, all eleven monkeys are replaced, one at at time.  And in the end, none of the monkeys will allow any of the other monkeys to touch the banana, nor even climb the ladder and none even knows why.  None of them have experienced the water, nor the association with the banana, nor that climbing the ladder has no punishment.  Yet they will not allow anyone to do such a thing, because that is the way it has always been for them.

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For me, I wanted to believe in something greater than myself. Thus, I began on a spiritual quest which became a road to nowhere. No matter what occult, paranormal books I researched and utilized, I never had any experience even remotely mystical. I was a skeptic going into the field, so I was left in no doubt that God, aliens, ghosts etc... don't exist in reality. I tried provoking 'demons' and 'malevolent spirits' at supposedly haunted locations with ouija boards, digital recorders and trigger objects, but nothing ever happened that couldn't be explained by natural means. Drop in the temperature? A draft. EMF spikes? Overhead cables and/or faulty wiring. Scratching on the walls? Vermin inside the structure. EVPs? Nothing but static interference which remains inaudible when amplified. Spirit box hits? Clearly radio frequency crossover.

My experience may mean nothing objectively if others have experiences that are beyond what they can comprehend, but my disbelief in parapsychology and paranormal nonsense has solidified. My spirituality nowadys comes from a physical mind-brain tranquility via meditating and mindfulness which don't require new agey woo-woo.

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Believers think that nonbelief is like gayness. Just like you can't just wake up one morning and "decide" to be straight or gay, you can't wake up and "decide" to believe. 

If you don't understand this, then try to wake up tomorrow morning believing in unicorns. Let me know how that goes for you. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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3 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Belief is at its core to me, laziness.  And it is comforting.  My original beliefs were founded on the basis of "this is how it was presented to me and I'm not inclined to disbelieve the adults around me who wouldn't lie to me" 

However, as my mind began to question some of the more ridiculous and patently insane ideas, to not then go head long into the questioning of why I believed what I did and how those beliefs were constructed to begin with, would be settling into an existence created for me, by people no longer alive, who lacked the capacity, or the desire to explore the unknown or accept that they just don't know so instead let's just adopt this notion from yet someone else and believe it.  Then whenever we will come up with rejection answers whenever confronted by either a lack of evidence, or outright evidence that is contrary and points out the cognitive dissonance in our adopted view of reality.

Reality tunnels are formed by age 7 roughly and are created by the reward/punishment system of our family and culture.  They are usually then in place and are nigh on impossible to deconstruct without a driving need to discover and a strong resolve to dive head long into every instance of cognitive dissonance one encounters in their view of life, to see if it is a result of experience, or merely an adoption of what was forcibly reinforced into us by the culture of our birth and our family.

 

Researchers place eleven monkeys in a room.  In this room is a ladder and on the ladder sits a banana.  As soon as a monkey climbs the ladder and touches the banana, sprinklers dowse the entire room with ice cold water.  Very soon, when any monkey goes to touch the banana, the other monkeys gang up and prevent any attempt to get the banana.

Now, the researchers observing the monkeys take one monkey out and replace it with another, who, having no reason not to, goes up the ladder to grab the banana.  Before she can however, the others all grab her and beat her until she stops.  She has no idea why, yet she soon stops going for the banana also, not wanting to raise the anger of her group.

Now, a second of the original eleven monkeys is taken out and replaced by a second new monkey.  And this fella, goes right for the banana.  Now the nine original monkeys are having none of it and attack outright before he even gets up the ladder... and our first transplant even joins in, with no real reason for why she is preventing the fellow from grabbing the banana that she too desired naturally, but she is reassured of her place and acceptance in the group because she is no longer the target of punishment.  Her reward is a lack of punishment and here you can even train someone without a reward, but by mere withholding of punishment instead.

Eventually, all eleven monkeys are replaced, one at at time.  And in the end, none of the monkeys will allow any of the other monkeys to touch the banana, nor even climb the ladder and none even knows why.  None of them have experienced the water, nor the association with the banana, nor that climbing the ladder has no punishment.  Yet they will not allow anyone to do such a thing, because that is the way it has always been for them.

I have never seen this before but it is a great and salutary lesson in why humanity behaves like sheep, both in action and thought.  Crowd mentality to be sure.  For me, I just can't believe in any deity or higher authority.  Too pragmatic, and whether that is because of nature or nurture I wouldn't know.  Brought up to believe in God and the bible but by early teens it was not making any sense to me at all.  The whole concept of spirituality has interested me for years but for it comes down to this:

reliance on a God or higher power seems to me to be opting out of responsibility for yourself.  Things go wrong, it is what God wants.  If things go right, God is rewarding you.  Simplistic, but you get the idea.

i also agree that on an individual level we are of no consequence whatsoever.  None of it matters to the universe what we do on this small ball of water and some land. We delude ourselves if we think otherwise.  In our arrogance mankind believed initially that the sun and the planets orbited the Earth, that we were the centre of the universe.  Our arrogance also led to the creation story in the bible - that we were special, important, and that some higher being was interested in our lives  makes no sense whatsoever to me.  Can't explain why I can't make it compute but I can't.  In the grand scheme of things the only thing that marks our individual existence is the DNA we pass on if we have offspring. It is all we leave behind and we sure as hell can take nothing with us.  As a species I fear our legacy will be the destruction of the earth either by weapons of mass destruction, including biological ones, or by over population and over use of earth's resources, for both food and power.  Our destiny is to strip it bare one way or another, and when we are gone and the earth recovers, some other creature will rise from the ashes and repeat the cycle until the sun expands and ends it all.  Am I being pessimistic?  Hope I am proved wrong but I have no expectations to the contrary

 

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monkeys being monkeys do serve up a surprise now and then ... depends on the observers really ...

~

 

~

 

Quote

 

“ALTRUISTIC” BEHAVIOR IN RHESUS MONKEYS1
Jules H. Masserman, M.D.; Stanley Wechkin, PH.D.,
ANDWilliam Terris, M.S.2
Originally published in: The American Journal of Psychiatry Vol 121. Dec. 1964. 584-585.

pdf link


 

~

Quote


Too Good to Be True: Rhesus Monkeys React Negatively to Better-than-Expected Offers

  • PLOS
 
  • Published: October 9, 2013

 

  • journal PLOS org link
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20 hours ago, mindpurge said:

I want to know, from those that are extremely skeptical about spirituality, why it is uncomfortable or simply wrong to believe in a higher power, a divine intelligence.

Some people prefer something of substance.

20 hours ago, mindpurge said:

I'm not Christian, nor am I religious, however I do strongly believe in god. I don't read the bible, because the bible was written by man, imperfect people. I do however believe in a man that was referred to as Christ, I believe in the 10 Commandments, I believe in divinity and I believe in the fight between Good vs Evil - and I do believe Evil is winning at this time. The reason Evil is winning is because I believe god gave man free will, and it is our chain of choices we've allowed to happen over time that has led up to our immoral world.

You believe in the Ten Commandments but not the Bible that defines them? To me that doesn't make a bit of sense. That's kind of like rejecting Buddha but accepting his teachings.

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1 hour ago, Susanc241 said:

I have never seen this before but it is a great and salutary lesson in why humanity behaves like sheep, both in action and thought.  Crowd mentality to be sure.  

It was made up, and is often used in motivational lectures.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction

It does demonstrate how untruth can spread as truth.

tell-a-lie-long-enough-goebbels.jpg

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1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

You believe in the Ten Commandments but not the Bible that defines them? To me that doesn't make a bit of sense. That's kind of like rejecting Buddha but accepting his teachings.

Other than the first commandment, the bible is the antonym of the commandments.

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1 minute ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Other than the first commandment, the bible is the antonym of the commandments.

However the Bible sets up the origin and purpose of the commandments, also the punishments for breaking them.

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22 hours ago, mindpurge said:

are simply making those choices because of religion, and not looking at the biggest picture. Not all of you, but many.

For me it's the whole 'made in god's image'. Then I look at humanity and say to myself, that is no god I want to be a part of. Religion being a man-made construct. For social control and bad psychology to boot. If there is a god it is apatheistic towards us. Not caring at all. 

As for a higher power, I see no point in one existing. 

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28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

For me it's the whole 'made in god's image'. Then I look at humanity and say to myself, that is no god I want to be a part of. Religion being a man-made construct. For social control and bad psychology to boot. If there is a god it is apatheistic towards us. Not caring at all. 

As for a higher power, I see no point in one existing. 

He kinda sounds like a drug pusher?

Let me reword his quote:

"I simply feel that a lot (not all) people that refuse to be opioid dependent, are simply making those choices because of some of the criminal activity,  or overdoses involved, and not looking at the biggest picture."

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LIke the vid clip there imaginaeieaeriououses , much easier THIRD EYE ! YEY ! )       )    ________    ) yes altruism info, nice word, some old couples are like that and stop to help people on the sides of roads, so sweet, and back to your video YOUTUBE clip ! as I was going to say ::::::::

Obviously no kids in there, sometimes they
jump in and point out obvious things and the young (or old)
lecturers smile and play it off but they hate eating crow.

That's so enduring acting towards each other
like you and I  ON OUR BEST DAYS !  but
nobody jumped up and said I wouldn't
eat your face off or devour a smaller monkey either and
thanks prof for emphasizing loudly ON OUR BEST DAYS because
we might have missed it.

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I have never been able to work out how to quote parts of posts, but the comment that the monkey story was made up seems to have been based on real work with rhesus monkeys, which while not producing quite the same strong reactions seemed to indicate a leaning towards that sort of behaviour.

 So even if the quoted monkey story is fabricated, or an exaggeration of an experiment, it is still a great way to illustrate the way we humans do behave.  You could definitely see it happening like that with a group of humans, even current day ones. Sometimes such reactions/behaviours are to our detriment and sometimes to our advantage.  Where religion comes in, in my mind, it is definitely to our detriment, whether to individuals or groups.  The whole idea of God or a higher power/being has caused the human race far more grief than any other set of ideas so far thought up.

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13 minutes ago, Susanc241 said:

I have never been able to work out how to quote parts of posts, but the comment that the monkey story was made up seems to have been based on real work with rhesus monkeys, which while not producing quite the same strong reactions seemed to indicate a leaning towards that sort of behaviour.

I separate paragraphs, or sentences with the return key. Then if separated right it quotes it's self.

13 minutes ago, Susanc241 said:

 So even if the quoted monkey story is fabricated, or an exaggeration of an experiment, it is still a great way to illustrate the way we humans do behave.  You could definitely see it happening like that with a group of humans, even current day ones. Sometimes such reactions/behaviours are to our detriment and sometimes to our advantage.  Where religion comes in, in my mind, it is definitely to our detriment, whether to individuals or groups.  The whole idea of God or a higher power/being has caused the human race far more grief than any other set of ideas so far thought up.

I agree. There's some vids/info in this thread you might be interested in?

The Science Behind Irrational Beliefs

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=272571

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Susan

Quote

So even if the quoted monkey story is fabricated, or an exaggeration of an experiment, it is still a great way to illustrate the way we humans do behave.

My understanding, possibly faulty, is that the story began as a "thought experiment," and got retold as a real experiment. Something like that happened (I think) with Galileo supposedly dropping different sized cannon balls from the Tower of Pisa, when all he had actually done was a thought experiment about a specific arrangement of cannon balls.

Anyway, you are correct that the point of the story is not to explain how monkeys behave, but to tell about how humans sometimes behave. Or more rigorously, it points to the limits of all contingent reasoning - mistakes will be made.

The parable plainly fails to describe human religious behavior. Innovation in religious thought and practice occurs all the time. Somewhere, right now even as we speak, somebody is cooking up a new religious movement. That it will encounter resistance is a feature, not a bug. If it attracts any attention at all, then it will likely eventually portray its early adopters as "martyrs."

My guess is that the real outcome with monkeys would be similar. Many monkeys will be intimidated, but other monkeys will not. One of the monkeys may see the advantage of manipulating another monkey to risk being beaten up and then sprayed, while being ready to get a share of the bananas if the manipulated monkey succeeds.

Regardless, the monkey who does succeed will forever after be known as the savior of his kind, who ascended so that others may eat of his bananas. Rhesus Jesus.

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god-cartoon.jpg

that+Awkward+Moment.png

kids-without-god-campaign.jpg

2 Kings 2:23-24Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"23 And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, `Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!'

24 And he looketh behind him, and seeth them, and declareth them vile in the name of Jehovah, and two bears come out of the forest, and rend of them forty and two lads."

elijah.jpg

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I've started to think spiritual is just another dressed up word for emotional needs. Seeing that most spiritual needs are emotion based. 

Edited by XenoFish
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Spiritual is a word that doesn't register with me. I understand spirited, lack of spirit,  but "spiritual" seems to be anything you want it to be !

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20 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Spiritual is a word that doesn't register with me. I understand spirited, lack of spirit,  but "spiritual" seems to be anything you want it to be !

WOW! 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

unnamed.jpg

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The old one-song repertoire getting another run ? 

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