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Wanting


8th_wall

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I'm wondering how the process of wanting something, or wanting to do something, actually works.  This doesn't seem to be in our control since when we don't want to do anything flipping the trigger to wanting to do it seems impossible.

Considering this I figured that I want to want when I want.  The thing with this is you must also know how to want.  So, I want to want when I want as well as to know how.  Knowing how does not necessarily evoke the act of carrying out the want itself though since you'd need to want to do it to begin with, recursion.  This makes me wonder about what precisely it is that drives up wanting to or not wanting to do anything from its origin.  It seems to exist independently of our capacity to 'will' it but doesn't always feel as such I'd say.

What is it that wants, how does it do it and what is it?

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It reminds me of how people always speak of, e.g., having a passion for expensive shoes, when in reality it is the particular passion  that has them, not the other way round. I suppose it is a form of possession. Such impulses form prior to our being conscious of them.

Edited by Habitat
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Ego to me is a verb, not a noun and describes the process you are speaking of... the compulsory desire for something, or the abject avoidance of something we don't want.

It's the gravitational nature of compulsive actions that are not made of conscious choice, but rather reflect what is in our core nature.  Only in hindsight, do we assign what we analyze to be a choice when we settle down and think about it out of the context of the present moment it occurred within...

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Hmm..nevertheless, it is a powerful experience-to want. Taps energy reservoirs, increases focus and drive. I believe the op asked how to control want, as well as what it is..

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I think we are controlled by our subconscious mind, and that is really who we are and our consciousness is over rated.  For instance, where do thoughts originate? Thoughts seem to come from nowhere. It seems to me a thought must be thought of before we consciously think it. The mechanism of thought lies beyond our conscious mind.

In conversation, if we had to consciously think of each word before we spoke it, constructed logical sentences consciously, a conversation would be a long process! Our subconscious minds work much faster than our conscious minds, and is the origin of our actions.

Wanting, etc. is due to the same subconscious processes.

 

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Wanting can come from necessity or the will to survive

Wanting can come from seeing qualities in others that the observer feels are desirable and lacking in themselves,..... 

Wanting is also capitalised on by advertising to the effect that we are told what to want...For example the admiration of another individuals successes can be easily emulated by wearing or using the products he/she endoreses...

 

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On 8/23/2016 at 4:23 PM, Habitat said:

It reminds me of how people always speak of, e.g., having a passion for expensive shoes, when in reality it is the particular passion  that has them, not the other way round. I suppose it is a form of possession. Such impulses form prior to our being conscious of them.

I like this and I agree.  What we want is not necessarily the object.  It is just the feeling one gets when one has the object.  I think those impulses do drive up from some strange unknown.

On 8/23/2016 at 11:41 PM, quiXilver said:

Ego to me is a verb, not a noun and describes the process you are speaking of... the compulsory desire for something, or the abject avoidance of something we don't want.

It's the gravitational nature of compulsive actions that are not made of conscious choice, but rather reflect what is in our core nature.  Only in hindsight, do we assign what we analyze to be a choice when we settle down and think about it out of the context of the present moment it occurred within...

Interesting.  I haven't thought of Ego like that before.  So you're saying it's more like a constant state of drive that fluctuates between positive and negative direction?

I'm trying to figure out the nature of the layers that exist beneath conscious choice.  How does the core nature work?  I agree on the hindsight observation.  I think a lot of mistakes are made when analyzing our perceptions in that we fail to realize that perception is a real time occurrence.  In hindsight we tend to see the entire perceptive structure in its entirety where as in real time the perceptive structure is in a constant state of flux. 

On 8/24/2016 at 0:48 AM, Wes4747 said:

Hmm..nevertheless, it is a powerful experience-to want. Taps energy reservoirs, increases focus and drive. I believe the op asked how to control want, as well as what it is..

I want to know how to...  Activate this "want".  Like what sort of training would be involved?  I'm currently doing a lot of self observation through meditation and recording my perceptive states throughout the day to see how change occurs.  Most want seems to be driven from habitual pattern.  Motivating the self, becoming psyched, seems to have a method to it that I'm trying to uncover.  My thinking is that the development of want is eventually going to lead to understanding the nature of what governs the process of habit.  Tapping energy reservoirs with the goal of focus drive, love, anything is incredibly fascinating to me.  For what do we truly want in life other than the experience of the truth and knowing of the nature of a particular state one desires to reach?  Having the ability to... Meditate, influence, shift gears at will this aspect of self should allow one to direct, far more easily, the self.

On 8/24/2016 at 3:51 AM, StarMountainKid said:

I think we are controlled by our subconscious mind, and that is really who we are and our consciousness is over rated.  For instance, where do thoughts originate? Thoughts seem to come from nowhere. It seems to me a thought must be thought of before we consciously think it. The mechanism of thought lies beyond our conscious mind.

In conversation, if we had to consciously think of each word before we spoke it, constructed logical sentences consciously, a conversation would be a long process! Our subconscious minds work much faster than our conscious minds, and is the origin of our actions.

Wanting, etc. is due to the same subconscious processes.

 

I agree with you regarding the subconscious mind however I disagree  that consciousness is over rated due to the ability for us to direct the subconscious through observation of truth and knowing in conjunction to our ability to focus on what we want when we choose.  I'm on the same confusing path as you regarding the origins of thought but the problem I'm hitting is that it would seem they can not originate from anywhere.  There is...  No motion... Eventually,, when you follow the recursive part.  At some point something must have come from nothing, unless everything is constantly in motion.  In which case thoughts might come from, through a very roundabout way, strings in the subatomic world.  This would suggest that what is "self" goes beyond just the brain, the brain then existing as some sort of focus lens for energy flowing around reality.

I agree regarding the complexities involved.  Being conscious of all is most likely only possible as a global view.  Observing the forest rather than the trees of the forest.  I think there's more interesting things going on regarding the subconscious but I do think that we are more our consciousness than our subconsciousness.  Consciousness directs the path of perspective shifts I would say.  Through this process of perspective manipulation the subconscious can be completely accessed I would think

My thinking is that wanting is something that can be controlled through understanding how to control shifts of perspective, which includes things like mood and awareness.  The subconscious mind mine is more like potential that converts to kinetic, which is the conscious experience.  What is kinetic has its origins in potential, sure, but it can still 'direct' somehow I would think.

22 hours ago, jules99 said:

Wanting can come from necessity or the will to survive

Wanting can come from seeing qualities in others that the observer feels are desirable and lacking in themselves,..... 

Wanting is also capitalised on by advertising to the effect that we are told what to want...For example the admiration of another individuals successes can be easily emulated by wearing or using the products he/she endoreses...

 

Wanting seems to only exist, from this frame of looking at it, as something that comes from the external world.  We must be able to control it.  I see what you're saying here and it makes me wonder how one would go about 'advertising' to oneself to want a particular thing or in a particular direction.

Someone wants you to do something so that they can get something else that they want because they want to go in a particular direction for another particular want....  It seems that there are "chains" that connect wants creating a network of mutual interest.  It must be possible to create "links" of chains that exist purely internally and not driven from external influence.

I feel yanked about the world due to this external influence all the time.  I want simply because I want, not because it has its origins in some external process.  I think authenticity lies here.  Feeling like an image of existence instead of a being that emanates self :P.

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"I feel yanked about the world due to this external influence all the time.  I want simply because I want, not because it has its origins in some external process.  I think authenticity lies here.  Feeling like an image of existence instead of a being that emanates self :P."

Im not sure here; but how would you want something if you didnt have an external point of reference for comparison? Surely without an external comparison you would be just as you are and content because you could see no better or worse.....why would you need to want if you had no idea that there was anything better?

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1 hour ago, jules99 said:

"I feel yanked about the world due to this external influence all the time.  I want simply because I want, not because it has its origins in some external process.  I think authenticity lies here.  Feeling like an image of existence instead of a being that emanates self :P."

Im not sure here; but how would you want something if you didnt have an external point of reference for comparison? Surely without an external comparison you would be just as you are and content because you could see no better or worse.....why would you need to want if you had no idea that there was anything better?

I have little want left, and I do not understand why, to be honest. My wants are seemingly driven only by need. Sure, I would like more freedom with my life or perhaps nicer things-but actually wanting anything? 

Like I wanted my first car when I was 15, or that first kiss. I carry on quiet well in this sluggish rat race of capitalism, but gone is the passion.. Desire.. And want.

Maybe because I don't care what kind of car my neighbor drives or how big your TV is, no external reference by lack of interest? But shouldn't I want something? I have an awesome girlfriend.. And I'm moderately happy with life.

About the only thing I can really say I want is to come upon some psycho active fungus lol

 

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Research "neurochemical motivators". Here's an article to get started with.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar05/dopamine.aspx

Also your own psychological makeup shapes your subconscious processes. 

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There is a difference between wants and obsession, for me wants are guided by ethic,reward/consequence, and for those in relationships there are other criteria to consider. I tend to like rather than need or want,my income is sufficient to provide a decent life that I can share with my children and grand-child. It's kind of like life, seen more than I needed to and yet still to need to know more. :)

jmccr8

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9 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Research "neurochemical motivators". Here's an article to get started with.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar05/dopamine.aspx

Also your own psychological makeup shapes your subconscious processes. 

That our brains do things that don't raise to consciousness is obvious, but I have always had problems with the idea of the "subconscious"(just as I -- and, it seems, modern Psychology -- have problems with most of Freud.  I don't think it is accurate, or at best is misleading, to speak of the subconscious as a thing.  It is brain activity that we have evolved to not be aware of, probably to permit us to function reasonably well.

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3 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

That our brains do things that don't raise to consciousness is obvious, but I have always had problems with the idea of the "subconscious"(just as I -- and, it seems, modern Psychology -- have problems with most of Freud.  I don't think it is accurate, or at best is misleading, to speak of the subconscious as a thing.  It is brain activity that we have evolved to not be aware of, probably to permit us to function reasonably well.

It's like looking at the binary 0's & 1's that gets crunched through your computer's cpu before you get the end result on your monitor. You would be like what the hell does this mean. Psychology is like knowing a small part of the binary code.

That's a simple way to explain it from my understanding.

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Hi Frank,

 When I'm walking, I don't have to think about lifting my foot six inches to clear the curb,my body/mind has incorporated a unity that frees the rest of my mind to mindlessly babble here. :D

jmccr8

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21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

There is a difference between wants and obsession, for me wants are guided by ethic,reward/consequence, and for those in relationships there are other criteria to consider. I tend to like rather than need or want,my income is sufficient to provide a decent life that I can share with my children and grand-child. It's kind of like life, seen more than I needed to and yet still to need to know more. :)

jmccr8

Yes, just as phobias are irrational and fears are rational, obsessions are irrational.  We have a basic desire set -- those things necessary for survival plus comfort plus a desire for life and a desire for honor (or love or appreciation or reputation or face or fame or power or -- it all depends on the person and the situation but they are all basically the same thing.

A way to be happy is to realize nothing lasts forever, neither our lives nor our discomforts nor our fame.  It all perishes, sooner or later.

We can learn to "zen" out on things like itches and pains and boredom and even nausea (although I haven't learned that one yet) and we can learn not to be bothered about what other's think (although taking that too far leads to rudeness and bad karma -- moderation).

 

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6 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

It's like looking at the binary 0's & 1's that gets crunched through your computer's cpu before you get the end result on your monitor. You would be like what the hell does this mean. Psychology is like knowing a small part of the binary code.

That's a simple way to explain it from my understanding.

Ah, but is it binary?  I suspect we have several thousand neurochemicals available to exchange in varying analog amounts across the synapses to do brain stuff with.  

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8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Frank,

 When I'm walking, I don't have to think about lifting my foot six inches to clear the curb,my body/mind has incorporated a unity that frees the rest of my mind to mindlessly babble here. :D

jmccr8

You may not remember it but you had to learn to walk -- set the patterns deep in your brain to function automatically -- as when one rides a bicycle or plays a musical instrument or reads a book.

There also are I think things the brain does that we did not need to learn how to do, such as interpret colors, but I am not so sure.  I do know we had to learn how to interpret depth, as seen by people who have gotten vision later in life through surgery or something of that sort and never were able to see before.  The period of time when how to interpret what we see can be learned is past for them.

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18 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Ah, but is it binary?  I suspect we have several thousand neurochemicals available to exchange in varying analog amounts across the synapses to do brain stuff with.  

No. I was talking in metaphor for understanding.

It's very complex. That idea in your head has already been processed in the background via the subconscious. Even the signal for hunger is a bioelectrochemical mechanism.

Of course I believe you know this?

60s-spiderman-meme-babies.jpg

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Yes Frank, I was referring to development of memory function,experience teaches our body/minds to work in wondrous ways and multiple skill sets evolve, for some more than others. :rolleyes:

Much of the work I do I do while thinking about other things(work related) without actually having to focus on one thing at a time. I do all my layouts to follow sequence  and incorporate the use of jigs to facilitate a consistent size cut on multiple pieces and reduce production time. I apply the same in all areas of my life. :)

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I also think all this wanting and behavior in general is more complex than we consider it to be. The conscious mind is mainly interested in the five senses and our emotional state. How we feel right now. We feel consciousness is us, is everything we are, but this may be an illusion. Consciousness my be just a veneer over brain activity at a deeper level that is really us. If I may quote from one of my blog entries here:

I sometimes wonder what my subconscious mind is thinking that it won't tell me about. I mean, my subconscious must be working all the time, right? Thinking thinking, thinking. But it only lets me know what it's thinking when it decides it wants me (the conscious me) to know what it’s thinking about.

It could be thinking all sorts of interesting stuff, but it keeps all these fun ideas to itself. I'm not sure why it does this. Out of spite perhaps or maybe it’s just not very interested in my conscious mind

One subconscious mind talking to another subconscious mind:

"Hey, I've been making my guy think he's the real person! He's so gullible I could almost puke. Or make him puke. How 'bout you?"

"Yeah man, I'm doing the same thing with my guy! It's a joke, isn't it? What a jerk my guy is! I've got him actually believing it's him who's doing all this stuff that I'm making him do. He's such an un-insightful dope! These consciousnesses are really pathetic."

And so on...

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On 8/25/2016 at 9:19 PM, jules99 said:

"I feel yanked about the world due to this external influence all the time.  I want simply because I want, not because it has its origins in some external process.  I think authenticity lies here.  Feeling like an image of existence instead of a being that emanates self :P."

Im not sure here; but how would you want something if you didnt have an external point of reference for comparison? Surely without an external comparison you would be just as you are and content because you could see no better or worse.....why would you need to want if you had no idea that there was anything better?

I believe that it is possible to have with you just the feeling of wanting.  There doesn't necessarily need to be anything better or worse.  I could theoretically want something that's worse.  The feeling of just "wanting" or perhaps "being willing" is a better way to look at it from this perspective.  This "willingness" aspect of want is what I'm after I think.

On 8/25/2016 at 10:57 PM, Wes4747 said:

I have little want left, and I do not understand why, to be honest. My wants are seemingly driven only by need. Sure, I would like more freedom with my life or perhaps nicer things-but actually wanting anything? 

Like I wanted my first car when I was 15, or that first kiss. I carry on quiet well in this sluggish rat race of capitalism, but gone is the passion.. Desire.. And want.

Maybe because I don't care what kind of car my neighbor drives or how big your TV is, no external reference by lack of interest? But shouldn't I want something? I have an awesome girlfriend.. And I'm moderately happy with life.

About the only thing I can really say I want is to come upon some psycho active fungus lol

 

You want what you currently have in a sense don't you?  For if you lost it, you'd notice the hole keenly.  You want your awesome girlfriend.  Even while your with her.  For instance I want to want to do the dishes when I do the dishes.  I don't want to not want to do the dishes.  There's a weird layering thing going on with this wanting business that separates the core emotion of it from the actual word.  I don't understand how to activate the core emotion of want when I want all sorts of things all of the time.

On 8/27/2016 at 1:18 AM, StarMountainKid said:

I also think all this wanting and behavior in general is more complex than we consider it to be. The conscious mind is mainly interested in the five senses and our emotional state. How we feel right now. We feel consciousness is us, is everything we are, but this may be an illusion. Consciousness my be just a veneer over brain activity at a deeper level that is really us. If I may quote from one of my blog entries here:

I sometimes wonder what my subconscious mind is thinking that it won't tell me about. I mean, my subconscious must be working all the time, right? Thinking thinking, thinking. But it only lets me know what it's thinking when it decides it wants me (the conscious me) to know what it’s thinking about.

 

It could be thinking all sorts of interesting stuff, but it keeps all these fun ideas to itself. I'm not sure why it does this. Out of spite perhaps or maybe it’s just not very interested in my conscious mind

One subconscious mind talking to another subconscious mind:

"Hey, I've been making my guy think he's the real person! He's so gullible I could almost puke. Or make him puke. How 'bout you?"

 

"Yeah man, I'm doing the same thing with my guy! It's a joke, isn't it? What a jerk my guy is! I've got him actually believing it's him who's doing all this stuff that I'm making him do. He's such an un-insightful dope! These consciousnesses are really pathetic."

And so on...

 

I still think that the subconscious can be accessed through conscious drive.  It just takes the right kinds of perspective shifts to bring what is subconscious to the conscious.  There are monks who, through training, learned how to regulate their body temperatures by meditating.  There are people who can regulate their own metabolisms.  I think the subconscious mind is far closer to grasp than you're giving the conscious mind credit.

The complexity of thinking about want like this is something that confuses me.  I believe that it is important to want to do the things in your life that brings you benefit.  But one does not always feel like or want to do those things.  Being able to get yourself to want to do the stuff that you know is beneficial for you is something that I'm interested in since self discipline, and to an extend, self control is something that I am somewhat lacking in.  The want I'm talking about isn't the simple "talking about" want.  For instance, "I want to quit smoking."  What I'm talking about is actually wanting to quit smoking.  There's a difference in how it's layered.  When you truly want to do something then there tends to be far fewer barriers to make it a reality compared to when you don't.

When you work your job because you want to rather than working your job because you need the money.

Some people seem capable of breaking all sorts of physical addictions at the flip of a coin.  They couldn't have done it without a strong will.  I think that "will" and "want" cross paths from my way of thinking about it.  I do not want to talk about the noun will, or the verb.  I'm interested in the adverb, willing.  But not in the sense of being willing to do something.  In the sense of actually willing on an emotional level.  There seems to be a higher cognitive level that one talks about in passing and then the actual experience of the thing as an emotion.  I.e "I love you." is easy to say but to mean the "love" as the feeling at the same time is something else.

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On 8/26/2016 at 6:48 AM, davros of skaro said:

Research "neurochemical motivators". Here's an article to get started with.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar05/dopamine.aspx

Also your own psychological makeup shapes your subconscious processes. 

This is all very interesting but I'm really only interested in it from an internal perspective sort of thing.  I.e observation as told by the mice, not by observation of the mice.  Observing behavioral change due to chemical changes is all fine and good but I want to know what happens inside of the minds of these creatures.  The ones that are highly self analytical and observant to begin with to adequately describe something that the rest of us can draw understanding to.  In so doing this objectifies the entire thing.  I believe that it's possible to learn from this objectification and apply the understandings to self without necessarily needing the use of any system of chemicals.

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Well said, somewhere along the hills and valleys I have learned to approach life with a sense of contentment and never ending curiosity.

And to any true psychonaut, the objective experience is imperative.

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psychonaut ! Interesting terminology.

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21 minutes ago, Habitat said:

psychonaut ! Interesting terminology.

From  various meditations, to spinning around really fast in circles like kids do, exploring the nature of consciousness from personal and group perspective was true north in relation to that term.

How present are you in every moment?

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