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Is astral projection a delusion?


Merc14

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I was asked to not hijack a thread and agreed to do so but I legitimately do have some questions regarding Astral Projection.There is zero empirical evidence of this type of phenomenon so we are left with testimonial evidence only and from what I have read it could easily be explained as a hallucination, no?  People can train their minds to go into a hallucinatory state or deep meditation but that is NOT proof of traveling through the universe.  Why is a simple explanation such as a hallucination or deep meditation not a better answer than traveling the universe in a 7th "body"?

What would constitute evidence of legitimate astral projection?  If one was traveling the universe couldn't one present a mathematical formula explaining dark matter or a detailed description of a nearby exoplanet?

So what is the story?   Why do folks have to make up some special power to describe a rather well known human ability that is easily explained by science?

Edited by Merc14
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Another problem with astral projection is that if people can supposedly exit their bodies why can't they use this to locate missing people? 

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15 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

What would constitute evidence of legitimate astral projection?  If one was traveling the universe couldn't one present a mathematical formula explaining dark matter or a detailed description of a nearby exoplanet?

It's hard enough for them to try to prove that they visited the next room, let alone somewhere else in the universe...

As you suggest, if it were a real thing, it would be super easy to prove. The fact that it has not been proven proves that it is not a real thing. Even more so if you think about the concentration of people on these forums alone who swear they can do it. Writing this is frustrating me :lol:

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The experience feels very real, hence one reason why some people find it difficult to believe that the experience did not happen. As for why they continue to believe it in face of a logical explanation for it is beyond me. Perhaps it's a form of spiritual bypassing, which is typical in situations where people prefer the paranormal explanation to the more realistic, logical one.

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Hmm... How much we know.. And he who proclaims wisdoms... Well, anyone here keeping up with alternate dimension theories? How bout a humble speculation? What if your free will existed because all dimensions exist right now? Therefore, all possibilities are indeed happening at this very moment? And maybe we choose which reality to be aware of?? 

Bear with me... Perhaps, ap is in fact a consciousness traversing an unlimited amount of possible dimensions that can not represent this dimension dependably due to lack of user experience? Why should time work the same? Without intense concentration, I doubt it would. 

I had a dream I was a butterfly, and when I woke I pondered whether "I" actually was the butterfly dreaming of "myself". 

Lol in this world, I have learned to be wary of anyone who claims to "know" anything. How could a speck of existence called a human "know" a damn thing about the splendor of the universe?! We can adapt. We can observe and predict. But our knowledge is often only written to be rewritten. 

Keep your "knowledge", allow for speculation. Allow for curiousity. Why make up your mind? Take your time on your ride-i been thinking too much-damn I love that song! Taking my time on my ride lol

Edited by Wes4747
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40 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Another problem with astral projection is that if people can supposedly exit their bodies why can't they use this to locate missing people? 

I know for a fact that the human mind is capable of some amazing things like time dilation.   (Sea story coming) I was on a  training mission one time when a pair of Tomcats led by a s-head from the wing cam through a mountain pass, belly up, through clouds, right into my flight, me in particular as I was highest on the ridge that side of the valley.  My young, newb-pilot never saw what happened but reacted instantly to my voice and dived that aircraft right into the mountainside.

I watched that big old aircraft pass within a few feet of my head, I could count the panel fittings and what took a couple of seconds, literally, plays out in my mind as minutes.  I got my pilot to pull up, locked an aircraft up downrange and fired an "electric" missile (we were on a tracked range in the desert).  My mind.literally. slowed things down till seconds were minutes.  That is a proven ability we humans have and it is amazing. 

The range we were on has towers all over re place that missiles on our rails transmit to so everything we did, every move, every shot was tracked, extrapolated and shown  but I can tell you everything that happened in those seconds while the other 7 people in my division (4 aircraft in a division ) only remember pieces, my pilot remember nothing but me yelling to dive and then shooting. 

The human brain is a truly incredible thing but it doesn't travel the universe on a spirit's wings.   My point is that we do ourselves an injustice when we ascribe supernatural abilities to purely natural, yet incredibly interesting, abilities we all possess. 

Edited by Merc14
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Being able to read a message on the wall of a locked room would be pretty good proof of astral projection, but failing to do so wouldn't disprove it, only that that particular individual couldn't do it.

So, establish a website to collect responses, print up a sign, hang it on the wall of a room, leave the light on, lock the door and invite all astral travelers to have a go at reading it. It only takes one success and you have proof of either astral projection, clairvoyance, or telepathy. Pretty much a win-win-win if anything happens.

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3 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

I had a dream I was a butterfly, and when I woke I pondered whether "I" actually was the butterfly dreaming of "myself".

If you were really a butterfly, your butterfly buddies probably think you're super lazy or in a coma right now, sleeping for so long. Hope they have you on a nectar drip! :lol: Impressive intellect for a butterfly too.

3 minutes ago, PersonFromPorlock said:

Being able to read a message on the wall of a locked room would be pretty good proof of astral projection, but failing to do so wouldn't disprove it, only that that particular individual couldn't do it.

So, establish a website to collect responses, print up a sign, hang it on the wall of a room, leave the light on, lock the door and invite all astral travelers to have a go at reading it. It only takes one success and you have proof of either astral projection, clairvoyance, or telepathy. Pretty much a win-win-win if anything happens.

Yes it's such a simple, repeatable and measurable experiment. It should have been proven by now. As should your other examples.

And it doesn't take one success, because that's just chance/probability working as it should (which is proven). There's never been anything statistically significant from anything like this.

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1 minute ago, Merc14 said:

The human brain is a truly incredible thing but it doesn't travel the universe on a spirit's wings.

I agree. If you think about yawning long enough you'll yawn, especially if you make the mental imagery as vivid as possible. One of the techniques used for astral projection is the 3am method. It's where you wake up at 3am then go back to sleep. This is supposed to allow you to astral project, however this is also a technique for lucid dreaming. I may have dreamed that I was walking on Mars, but I did not 'astral project' there. I created a very lucid dream of the event, all subconscious. 

The most commonly mention event when people talk about astral projection is the vibratory state, this is basically just a hypic jerk, and/or muscle spasms. Since you are basically conscious (to a degree) while you sleep. I really think that the vibratory state is where your muscle are trying to fulfill a conscious desire while you're unconscious, sense the mental imagery is that of you moving around. 

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15 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

Hmm... How much we know.. And he who proclaims wisdoms... Well, anyone here keeping up with alternate dimension theories? How bout a humble speculation? What if your free will existed because all dimensions exist right now? Therefore, all possibilities are indeed happening at this very moment? And maybe we choose which reality to be aware of?? 

Bear with me... Perhaps, ap is in fact a consciousness traversing an unlimited amount of possible dimensions that can not represent this dimension dependably due to lack of user experience? Why should time work the same? Without intense concentration, I doubt it would. 

I had a dream I was a butterfly, and when I woke I pondered whether "I" actually was the butterfly dreaming of "myself". 

Lol in this world, I have learned to be wary of anyone who claims to "know" anything. How could a speck of existence called a human "know" a damn thing about the splendor of the universe?! We can adapt. We can observe and predict. But our knowledge is often only written to be rewritten. 

Keep your "knowledge", allow for speculation. Allow for curiousity. Why make up your mind? Take your time on your ride-i been thinking too much-damn I love that song! Taking my time on my ride lol

Dreaming is a human condition, nothing mysterious there and your imaginings are healthy.  As far as knowing what is real, that is important and kind of the point of this thread.  To determine what is real we use the scientific method detailed here http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html

My time dilation detailed above wasn't me leaving my body and witnessing things from afar, or seeing it from a 7th body experience, it was the human brain doing its thing when faced with a fatal situation.  It is well documented, analyzed and totally proven.I can't say the same for AP.

 

14 minutes ago, PersonFromPorlock said:

Being able to read a message on the wall of a locked room would be pretty good proof of astral projection, but failing to do so wouldn't disprove it, only that that particular individual couldn't do it.

So, establish a website to collect responses, print up a sign, hang it on the wall of a room, leave the light on, lock the door and invite all astral travelers to have a go at reading it. It only takes one success and you have proof of either astral projection, clairvoyance, or telepathy. Pretty much a win-win-win if anything happens.

It has been done, countless times and always nothing.  Look up ESP testing

Edited by Merc14
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10 minutes ago, SSilhouette said:

The name of this website is "Unexplained Mysteries".

So we shouldn't seek explanations?  How about the name of the site is Unexplained mysteries explored What I find most amusing is the ones who call people close-minded for trying to find rational explanations for seemingly irrational things.  Why does it upset you so much if something you assume is real is tested as such?  Doubt?  If you doubt, why run from exploration,what is your fear?

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50 minutes ago, SSilhouette said:

The name of this website is "Unexplained Mysteries".

It is.  Good catch.  It is not "Believe Everything Posted Without Questioning Anything"  It's about actual Unexplained Mysteries.  Astral Projection is not one of them.

Unless....you have proof that is it an unexplained mystery, or that it is actually real....in which case it wouldn't be unexplained or mysterious anymore, would it be?

Edited by Thorvir Hrothgaard
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8 hours ago, SSilhouette said:

The name of this website is "Unexplained Mysteries".

Ironically, the biggest unexplained mystery here is why people continue to believe in astral travel (and other supposedly paranormal phenomenon) in spite of scientific and other evidence disproving it. Well perhaps not so much a mystery as scientists have an explanation for that too.

Edited by Clair
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8 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Dreaming is a human condition, nothing mysterious there and your imaginings are healthy.  As far as knowing what is real, that is important and kind of the point of this thread.  To determine what is real we use the scientific method detailed here http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/scientific_method.html

My time dilation detailed above wasn't me leaving my body and witnessing things from afar, or seeing it from a 7th body experience, it was the human brain doing its thing when faced with a fatal situation.  It is well documented, analyzed and totally proven.I can't say the same for AP.

 

It has been done, countless times and always nothing.  Look up ESP testing

I get that, and I have limited experience. One lucid dream where I had purchased a new home for my family and me and the kids were running around exploring and playing hide and go seek, then I climbed over a couch and when I did I actually felt the couch cushion! Very cool, but I knew it was just a dream.

My best friend, 35 years old. Ex special forces. Down to earth and very genuine person. Tells me one morning he lived an entire life as a rice farming monk the previous night. From early childhood to death. I asked him what new language did he learn?! And he says "I don't know, there were no schools. I really didn't think about talking, I just did it. I never remembered being anyone else while I was there."  

Easy for me to believe him because I know him. Where are our thoughts located? Where is the seat of our awareness? And does that seat have wheels? One poster here believes thoughts do not exist! Lol

We can not conclusively say, can we? Where does your conviction come from that ap is a delusion? That's just another guess, based on some chemical reaction in a brain. If we absolutely understood the reactions compared to thought, you would have a leg to stand on. But you dont.

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1 hour ago, Clair said:

Ironically, the biggest unexplained mystery here is why people continue to believe in astral travel (and other supposedly paranormal phenomenon) in spite of scientific and other evidence disproving it. Well perhaps not so much a mystery as scientists have an explanation for that too.

Because people either want to feel special or want to break the monotony of life up. I know. Magick did that for me. It gave me a sense of empowerment in a chaotic world, where I had no control. AP is like that, it give the sense of freedom when there really isn't one. Do you think that a prisoner wouldn't AP at night? It wouldn't be much of a prison if AP was legit. He or She could just hop out of body for a few hours, stroll around and then return back. You'd also have to think about security, a skilled AP'er could go into a secured government building. Even if the AP'er could hypothetically get to a level where they could geist the location there at, they'd be a real psychic weapon. I've come across enough astral warrior to know that they are all crap. Go onto any psionics forum you can find and read some of the stuff posted. 

To go off topic, a energy construct is a figment of the imagination and any results you obtain for such a thing is confirmation bias.

Here's something worth a read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder

Lucid dreaming has more backing it that astral projection.

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Well you guys seem to have all the answers already. What's the point of this thread?

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22 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Well you guys seem to have all the answers already. What's the point of this thread?

You have anything to back up a subjective claim? Anything to show us where we are wrong?

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Nothing I haven't already said in several threads over a long time. The people who want to believe will, and vice vs. 

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9 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Well you guys seem to have all the answers already. What's the point of this thread?

No one is professing to having all the answers. What we're trying to examine and understand is why some people resort to paranormal explanations for strange or anomalous phenomena even though science has totally rejected it. Scientists and psychologists, among others, have studied this behavior extensively, and the reasons for it vary depending on the individual. Some use their belief in the paranormal as a protective shield against harsh realities. It's much easier, for example, to blame the voices one hears on evil entities, than to admit to the possibility of having a mental illness. Believers have also been found to have weaker cognitive inhibition compared to skeptics. Others just want to believe because they find comfort in it. For others, it could simply be their brain's attempt to find cause and effect. Everyone is different.

As far as OBEs are concerned, scientists have studied and provided explanations for them. Indeed, OBEs have also been studied whilst in progress during lucid dreaming. They're a head trip, nothing more. The same goes for OBEs during near death experiences. Even stories of people claiming to have seen and heard things during an OBE have a rational explanation.

Anyway, the following article from Scientific American provides an interesting overall explanation for why people believe in the paranormal:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-come-some-people-believe-in-the-paranormal/

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19 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Nothing I haven't already said in several threads over a long time. The people who want to believe will, and vice vs. 

What would constitute evidence that AP is real?

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16 minutes ago, Clair said:

No one is professing to having all the answers. What we're trying to examine and understand is why some people resort to paranormal explanations for strange or anomalous phenomena even though science has totally rejected it. Scientists and psychologists, among others, have studied this behavior extensively, and the reasons for it vary depending on the individual. Some use their belief in the paranormal as a protective shield against harsh realities. It's much easier, for example, to blame the voices one hears on evil entities, than to admit to the possibility of having a mental illness. Believers have also been found to have weaker cognitive inhibition compared to skeptics. Others just want to believe because they find comfort in it. For others, it could simply be their brain's attempt to find cause and effect. Everyone is different.

As far as OBEs are concerned, scientists have studied and provided explanations for them. Indeed, OBEs have also been studied whilst in progress during lucid dreaming. They're a head trip, nothing more. The same goes for OBEs during near death experiences. Even stories of people claiming to have seen and heard things during an OBE have a rational explanation.

Anyway, the following article from Scientific American provides an interesting overall explanation for why people believe in the paranormal:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-come-some-people-believe-in-the-paranormal/

You mean some in the science field reject it. Just yesterday I was listening to that brain surgeon that had a NDE. A man who no one in this thread could even come close matching intelligence. Especially when it comes to what we know about the brain. He seemed to think it was very possible for consciousness to exist separate from the body. I noticed he used the phrase "if we are being honest" a lot. In regards to that he was saying science knows a lot less about all this then they would lead you to believe.

As for myself, Im perfectly fine with the fact that there are people who don't believe. I just find it a little funny when those same people speak as if this has all been figured out long ago. Then stand on that as if to claim intellectual superiority over people who believe.

Most of what I believe in regards to this comes from scientists and doctors.  I spend hours on end listening to all kinds of info regarding this from a wide range of scientific and other backgrounds.

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1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

Well you guys seem to have all the answers already. What's the point of this thread?

You seem to forget that you asked Merc not to derail the other thread, so he started this one...why are you questioning the existence of it now?  Can't you be tolerant of other's opinions just once?

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13 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

What would constitute evidence that AP is real?

As far as perception goes, AP is definitely real.

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2 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

As far as perception goes, AP is definitely real.

Yet where is the evidence of it? 

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