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Is Earth vulnerable to mini black holes ?


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Its all very much beyond my level of comprehension,

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Possible explanation for dark matter.

Harte

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52 minutes ago, Harte said:

Possible explanation for dark matter.

Harte

These mini black holes each have about the mass of the moon according to the article.

Mass of the moon is 3.69 x 10-8 solar masses, so you would need more than 27.1 million of them to account for just one solar mass.

The mass of dark matter in the Milky Way is believed to be between 6 x 1011 to 3 x 1012 solar masses

So to account for the dark matter in the Milky Way you would need between 1.6 x 1019 and 8.1 x 1019 of these mini black holes in just our galaxy. That is a huge amount of black holes.

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I didnt know black holes have a size, i thought it was in their nature to not conform to our physical laws. I think we should probably understand this phenomenon before we fear monger it.

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1 minute ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

These mini black holes each have about the mass of the moon according to the article.

Mass of the moon is 3.69 x 10-8 solar masses, so you would need more than 27.1 million of them to account for just one solar mass.

The mass of dark matter in the Milky Way is believed to be between 6 x 1011 to 3 x 1012 solar masses

So to account for the dark matter in the Milky Way you would need between 1.6 x 1019 and 8.1 x 1019 of these mini black holes in just our galaxy. That is a huge amount of black holes.

Dark matter is one of those hijacked scientific terms. Dark matter technically shouldnt be matter at all, and many people confuse it for anti-matter. We dont really know what dark matter is, just that it is the theory of matter consisting of unknown particles.

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29 minutes ago, grimsituation6 said:

Dark matter technically shouldnt be matter at all

Not so. From wikipedia:

Quote

Before the 20th century, the term matter included ordinary matter composed of atoms and excluded other energy phenomena such as light or sound. This concept of matter may be generalized from atoms to include any objects having mass even when at rest, but this is ill-defined because an object's mass can arise from its (possibly massless) constituents' motion and interaction energies. Thus, matter does not have a universal definition, nor is it a fundamental concept in physics today. Matter is also used loosely as a general term for the substance that makes up all observable physical objects.

Since dark matter is observable, albeit indirectly by it's gravitational effect on normal matter, most definitely has mass and is a physical object it is matter. What it is not is baryonic matter

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41 minutes ago, grimsituation6 said:

I didnt know black holes have a size,

It's not about size, it's about mass.

41 minutes ago, grimsituation6 said:

I think we should probably understand this phenomenon before we fear monger it.

Who exactly is fear-mongering? Would you rather that scientists keep quiet if their theories might scare you?

Me personally, I find ignorance to be a more frightening prospect.

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2 hours ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

These mini black holes each have about the mass of the moon according to the article.

Mass of the moon is 3.69 x 10-8 solar masses, so you would need more than 27.1 million of them to account for just one solar mass.

The mass of dark matter in the Milky Way is believed to be between 6 x 1011 to 3 x 1012 solar masses

So to account for the dark matter in the Milky Way you would need between 1.6 x 1019 and 8.1 x 1019 of these mini black holes in just our galaxy. That is a huge amount of black holes.

True, but assuming they are more-or-less evenly distributed throughout the Milky Way, that is only <10-11 mini BHs within our solar system, so the odds of us detecting one are pretty small - even if they were common enough to account for dark matter.

(I treated the galaxy as a cylinder, using Wikipedia's data for the radius and height to find the volume, and I treated the solar system as a sphere - which is a huge over-estimate of the volume, I know - with a radius of 50 AU.)

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2 hours ago, grimsituation6 said:

Dark matter is one of those hijacked scientific terms. Dark matter technically shouldnt be matter at all, and many people confuse it for anti-matter. We dont really know what dark matter is, just that it is the theory of matter consisting of unknown particles.

Of course it is matter, it has mass (that was how we detected it was there in the first place). Neutrinos have mass and are thus matter, although they interact extremely weakly with other matter. But feel free to explain why you believe that dark matter isn't matter.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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i think bad astronomy and hypothesis will kill us before a black hole with diameter of a human hair

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I thought regular black holes evaporated? Wouldn't a black hole the mass of Earth's Moon have evaporated (by way of Hawking Radiation) long before now? Or are we supposing that a Dark Matter black hole would work differently?

And what does it mean that these black holes might have formed before the universe? Does that mean before regular matter started to clump up?

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Well, I've seen articles/discussions about mini black holes several times before during a number of years, including on this site, so it is not a new idea. I guess they could exist but bringing it up again and again probably doesn't lead anywhere. It just causes the same kinds of discussions/speculations every time.

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We were already hit by one of these Mini Black Holes. Look up the Tunguska Event. 

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8 minutes ago, stevemagegod said:

We were already hit by one of these Mini Black Holes. Look up the Tunguska Event. 

That was a joke, right?

Cheers,

Badeskov

 

 

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4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I thought regular black holes evaporated? Wouldn't a black hole the mass of Earth's Moon have evaporated (by way of Hawking Radiation) long before now? Or are we supposing that a Dark Matter black hole would work differently?

And what does it mean that these black holes might have formed before the universe? Does that mean before regular matter started to clump up?

According to Wikipedia a mini BH with a mass close to that of Earth's Moon would be in thermal equilibrium with the cosmic microwave background, and therefore would be stable; perhaps that is one reason why the article reference mini BHs in that mass range.

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I have two problems with this theory. Gravity and diameters of human hairs. While these moon mass mini black holes are going through the earth the gravity wells will merge causing the pull on everything including people will go up by a sixth. That's a lot. Same increase in weight would cause buildings to creak, ships to sink, planes would be affected. The other thing is hairs don't sink through bedrock. They lay on top. So if a bit of dust or a fleck of paint can make a mark on a space shuttle window, I would have thought a fragment of human hair travelling faster than earth escape velocity and with the same mass as the moon would make a corispondantly larger dent when it hit the Earth. It's either that or my barber's floor is made of a very suspicious extraterrestrial material and he has an anti gravity machine hidden under it to neutralise the gravity pull of his black hole body dense white tiling. Is that a heel mark I can see or what's left of the previous customer after a power cut?.

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11 hours ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

These mini black holes each have about the mass of the moon according to the article.

Actually, that's not what it says:

"Some could weigh nearly as much as Earth's moon, others an asteroid, and still more somewhere in between. "

11 hours ago, Waspie_Dwarf said:

Mass of the moon is 3.69 x 10-8 solar masses, so you would need more than 27.1 million of them to account for just one solar mass.

The mass of dark matter in the Milky Way is believed to be between 6 x 1011 to 3 x 1012 solar masses

So to account for the dark matter in the Milky Way you would need between 1.6 x 1019 and 8.1 x 1019 of these mini black holes in just our galaxy. That is a huge amount of black holes.

The article itself states exactly what I said:

"Devices in space and underground have sought out particles of dark matter for years, but have so far turned up empty.

Which is why researchers are turning to the (somewhat frightening) notion that we're surrounded by countless black holes that formed 13.8 billion years ago."

The hypothesis is that the universe is filled with these black holes. That would be more than enough.

Harte

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10 minutes ago, Harte said:

Actually, that's not what it says:

"Some could weigh nearly as much as Earth's moon, others an asteroid, and still more somewhere in between. "

Which would make my figures an underestimation.

 

10 minutes ago, Harte said:

The hypothesis is that the universe is filled with these black holes. That would be more than enough.

I was not disputing the hypothesis, merely trying to understand the number of these objects that would be involved. Do you have any problems with my calculations?

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Quote

But assuming that black holes do evaporate, the trick is to figure out how fast, and that rate depends upon mass, with more massive black holes producing fewer evaporated particles. What Bambi’s team argues that a mass of about 1016 grams, roughly that of a fairly common asteroid, will produce the right amount of antimatter to explain the detections. Theoretically, the signature radiation from black holes of this particular size should be observable given the right equipment, Paul Gilster opines that his team have considered evaporating primordial BHs [black holes], as a possible source of positrons to generate the observed photon 511 keV line from the Galactic ulge. The analysis of the accompanying continuous photon background produced, in particular, by the same evaporating BHs, allows to fix the mass of the evaporating BHs near 1016 g.

It is interesting that the necessary amount of BHs could be of the same order of magnitude as the amount of dark matter in the Galactic Bulge. This opens a possibility that such primordial BHs may form all cosmological dark matter.

 My emphasis.

This is from a paper on the topic - see page 29. Source

And no, there's nothing wrong with your calculations. The hypothesis is that these BH's were formed by the Big Bang, I believe, and are ubiquitous.

Possibly, these scientists are grasping at straws. I'm not saying I agree with them, but I'm not qualified to either agree or disagree.

Harte

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10 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

According to Wikipedia a mini BH with a mass close to that of Earth's Moon would be in thermal equilibrium with the cosmic microwave background, and therefore would be stable; perhaps that is one reason why the article reference mini BHs in that mass range.

Taking in as much as it expels huh? I'll read up on it. :tu:

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6 hours ago, Harte said:

 My emphasis.

This is from a paper on the topic - see page 29. Source

And no, there's nothing wrong with your calculations. The hypothesis is that these BH's were formed by the Big Bang, I believe, and are ubiquitous.

Possibly, these scientists are grasping at straws. I'm not saying I agree with them, but I'm not qualified to either agree or disagree.

Harte

If true, I imagine the galactic center would be a hell hole. With tiny black holes buzzing around through stars and planets constantly. We'd be relatively safe out here in the galactic wings, I suppose. 

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Since I read a while ago, the some scientists think black holes are gateways to other universes, provided you can withstand the gravity, I wonder IF someone in another universe has found a way to beat this, the mini black holes may account for shadow creatures and other paranormal activities that currently don't have accepted explanations.  Just thouwing this out there for some discussion.

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15 hours ago, cyclopes500 said:

I have two problems with this theory. Gravity and diameters of human hairs. While these moon mass mini black holes are going through the earth the gravity wells will merge causing the pull on everything including people will go up by a sixth. That's a lot. Same increase in weight would cause buildings to creak, ships to sink, planes would be affected. The other thing is hairs don't sink through bedrock. They lay on top. So if a bit of dust or a fleck of paint can make a mark on a space shuttle window, I would have thought a fragment of human hair travelling faster than earth escape velocity and with the same mass as the moon would make a corispondantly larger dent when it hit the Earth. It's either that or my barber's floor is made of a very suspicious extraterrestrial material and he has an anti gravity machine hidden under it to neutralise the gravity pull of his black hole body dense white tiling. Is that a heel mark I can see or what's left of the previous customer after a power cut?.

If a mini BH the mass of Earth's moon passed through the Earth I think we (and possibly the whole planet) would get swallowed up. You are right about the kinetic energy of the mini BH hitting the Earth: Regardless of the speed of the mini BH, I think the effect of the collision would be much worse than those from a collision with the actual Moon travelling at the same speed.

Of course if the math I posted previously is correct, since we expect only 10-12 of these mini BHs within 50 AU of the solar system, the odds are quite small that one will actually hit the Earth. I think the argument made by the original article is that IF these mini BHs exist, and IF one skimmed through the solar system without hitting any planets, our current equipment should be able to detect it. Of course if one actually did hit a planet we would definitely see very clear and dramatic effects.

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