IPaulasaurus Posted September 6, 2016 #1 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Hello, my friends! I would like to start this thread for discussions on fallacies regarding the Omni qualities of God, such as his omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. Let's start by asking the age old question- Can God create a boulder he can't move/lift? This question would be in the scenario that a God does exist Thanks for stopping by! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted September 6, 2016 #2 Share Posted September 6, 2016 If we break the question down, I think it reduces to a meaningless or at best incomprehensible question. A boulder that God can't lift is short-hand for God's non-omnipotence, so the question becomes can an omnipotent being do something that makes him not omnipotent; I don't think we can comprehend that any better than A is not equal to A. The question doesn't demonstrate an issue with God's omnipotence, it demonstrates our ability to generate contradictory and literally illogical statements. The omni-quality I think has the issue is omnibenevolence. Actually I usually see omniscience included when talking about the omnis and not omnipresence. Not sure what 'fallacy' would be involved with omnipresence but would be interested to know if there is one. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPaulasaurus Posted September 6, 2016 Author #3 Share Posted September 6, 2016 (edited) I would guess no fallacy with omnipresence, but regarding the omnis as a whole. As in the Omnibenevolence interferes with the omnipotence, because if God can't do something evil, he is not omnipotent; there is something he is unable to do. If he can do something evil, then he is no longer omnibenevolent. EDIT: I just came up with a fallacy regarding omnipresence! God, being omnipotent, can do anything. Also being omnibenevolent, he can do no evil. If he is omnipresent, he is there at all times. But he could not be at a time where he does something evil, or he would no longer be omnibenevolent. If he can't do that, then he would no longer be omnipresent or omnipotent. Edited September 6, 2016 by IPaulasaurus didnt want to make another post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 7, 2016 #4 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Only thing God can't do is prove that he exist. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 7, 2016 #5 Share Posted September 7, 2016 2 hours ago, IPaulasaurus said: Hello, my friends! I would like to start this thread for discussions on fallacies regarding the Omni qualities of God, such as his omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. Let's start by asking the age old question- Can God create a boulder he can't move/lift? This question would be in the scenario that a God does exist Thanks for stopping by! That particular dichotomy is a false one Iit is easily resolved. The boulder would be a part of any omnipotent omnipresent etc ., god, and thus easily lifted, no matter how big it was. However, no physical god (nor any other physical entity) can possess the actual qualities of omnipotence, omniscience,omnipresence. Certainly, benevolence is a quality which COULD be singular in a Person. Even a human can chose to always be benevolent in thought and deed. That simply requires adequate will and discipline. Of course, if you are not all powerful, being benevolent might require killing some people to protect other people, for example. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 7, 2016 #6 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, IPaulasaurus said: I would guess no fallacy with omnipresence, but regarding the omnis as a whole. As in the Omnibenevolence interferes with the omnipotence, because if God can't do something evil, he is not omnipotent; there is something he is unable to do. If he can do something evil, then he is no longer omnibenevolent. EDIT: I just came up with a fallacy regarding omnipresence! God, being omnipotent, can do anything. Also being omnibenevolent, he can do no evil. If he is omnipresent, he is there at all times. But he could not be at a time where he does something evil, or he would no longer be omnibenevolent. If he can't do that, then he would no longer be omnipresent or omnipotent. A god could be capable of evil, but never chose to do it, thus being omnibenevolent. Unless an entity has a choice, it cannot claim the quality granted by that choice eg no one can be good if the y are compelled to only be good. Non self are animals (and very young children) are neither good nor evil in any of their actions, because they do not have the self awareness to make informed choices or sufficient awareness of consequence. An entity compelled by biology, or other forces, to act in ways which are benevolent is NOT a benevolent creature, because it has not chosen benevolence. Edited September 7, 2016 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creatr1x Posted September 7, 2016 #7 Share Posted September 7, 2016 New here. Before we continue about the omnis, are we assuming "God" is the Judeo-Christian entity so many believe in? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted September 7, 2016 #8 Share Posted September 7, 2016 If there is a God they wouldn't care to create the stone nor care to lift it. A God also wouldn't care about me. Me and God understand each other. We don't care about the other. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted September 7, 2016 #9 Share Posted September 7, 2016 An oxymoron, why would it bother? ..... pondering .... and its late ..... lets see .... I can tell you, if this is related or like the history of the first Gordian knot, and an idealize entity named god by humans on earth showed up for the task it would wave a hand and the atoms would disorganize and it would seem to evaporate. Oh its god, hardly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted September 7, 2016 #10 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Someone please get me another drink ... ~ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted September 7, 2016 #11 Share Posted September 7, 2016 The romans can make a cross that Jesus cannot carry. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted September 7, 2016 #12 Share Posted September 7, 2016 2 hours ago, third_eye said: Someone please get me another drink ... ~ Hit the nail on the head. THE WINNER ! These puzzlers are becoming a real annoying puzzle and look who saved the day! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post +ouija ouija Posted September 7, 2016 Popular Post #13 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able but not willing ? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing ? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing ? Then why call Him God?" EPICURUS Edited September 7, 2016 by ouija ouija 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted September 7, 2016 #14 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Good and evil are artificial constructs, they have no objective existence. Was there ever an evil dinosaur, or a "good" one ? How absurd. So it is with humans, and Shakespeare was in agreement ! "for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so " 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplybill Posted September 7, 2016 #15 Share Posted September 7, 2016 A discussion of the attributes of God (Judeo/Christian) should include the realities of 'free will', or the discussion becomes irrelevant theologically. Likewise, a discussion of life in general is meaningless without acknowledging the importance of free will decisions. For example, I inherited a collection of ornamental whiskey bottles that I keep as kitschy decorations in my house. As a reformed alcoholic, I'm sometimes faced with a choice of reverting to self-medication in the dark days of winter, or choosing to pursue the character traits of the Spirit that intercepted my life years ago. The choice between 'good or evil' is very real for me, and stands in stark contrast to the idea that we are merely products of neuro/chemical reactions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma_Acid Posted September 7, 2016 #16 Share Posted September 7, 2016 17 hours ago, IPaulasaurus said: Hello, my friends! I would like to start this thread for discussions on fallacies regarding the Omni qualities of God, such as his omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. Let's start by asking the age old question- Can God create a boulder he can't move/lift? This question would be in the scenario that a God does exist Thanks for stopping by! The "omni" qualities were built in to the construction of the Abrahamic god to force compliance in warring or opposing groups who typically believed in less-than-perfect polytheistic gods, who had more human qualities. Judaism united the disparate tribes of Judah, Christianity united the Roman Empire, and Islam united the Arabic tribes. When you have a god that knows everything you're thinking and doing, and you who you don't have to go to the temple to talk to, you're a lot more likely to fall into line. That's my woefully over-simplistic take on it anyway. Looking for logic in the "omni" thing is a fool's errand. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlonewolf85 Posted September 7, 2016 #17 Share Posted September 7, 2016 16 hours ago, IPaulasaurus said: Hello, my friends! I would like to start this thread for discussions on fallacies regarding the Omni qualities of God, such as his omnipotence, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. Let's start by asking the age old question- Can God create a boulder he can't move/lift? This question would be in the scenario that a God does exist Thanks for stopping by! Great question! I think, if there is a god, then he/she/it would have to be beyond all logic and our comprehension. If there is a god, then that entity would have to be beyond the laws of physics and science and we would probably not be able to even understand its existence or about the things that it is capable of doing. If god is real, then that god would have to be beyond paradoxes too, in my opinion... Also, I think, if god exists then he/she/it would also be kinda indifferent to us... God would neither love us, nor hate us, nor be affected by us in any way... God would certainly not create a boulder he can't move/lift just to make a point, now would he? It's pointless! Haha... PS - Welcome to UM, I hope that you enjoy the forums... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted September 7, 2016 #18 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) Should frame that dLonewolf85. Ooooh just another two bits and I'm stickin to it ! Gods ? Death is real. Haven't seen it lately though. Oh cripes wrong topic area, well there it is. Okay update :::::: that was excellent Habitat. DA____ ! ah I mean shucky darn !!!! good golly wally , gee beaver, logging back in .... too many good ones ouija ouija now that was premiumly GOLDEN ! too. Edited September 7, 2016 by MWoo7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted September 7, 2016 #19 Share Posted September 7, 2016 I think God is both omni-benevolent and omni-malevolent if God created the universe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted September 7, 2016 #20 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, StarMountainKid said: I think God is both omni-benevolent and omni-malevolent if God created the universe. From the Tractates Cryptica Scriptura of Philip K. Dick: 1. One Mind there is; but under it two principles contend. 2. The Mind lets in the light, then the dark, in interaction; so time is generated. At the end Mind awards victory to the light; time ceases and the Mind is complete. That's certainly one way to look at it. Edited September 7, 2016 by TruthSeeker_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes4747 Posted September 7, 2016 #21 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Can god create a place he can't go?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted September 7, 2016 #22 Share Posted September 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Wes4747 said: Can god create a place he can't go?? I haven't seen him around lately, probably wouldn't want to come to this earth anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes4747 Posted September 7, 2016 #23 Share Posted September 7, 2016 3 hours ago, MWoo7 said: Should frame that dLonewolf85. Ooooh just another two bits and I'm stickin to it ! Gods ? Death is real. Haven't seen it lately though. Oh cripes wrong topic area, well there it is. Okay update :::::: that was excellent Habitat. DA____ ! ah I mean shucky darn !!!! good golly wally , gee beaver, logging back in .... too many good ones ouija ouija now that was premiumly GOLDEN ! too. What ya mean MajorWoo? Death is real? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted September 7, 2016 #24 Share Posted September 7, 2016 (edited) God is typically given human qualities which is why I believe that god is our creation. Now if there was a 'god' type entity or force it would have little need or want to be around us. We need a real definition of god one that is universal. Not isolated by tribal/mythological beliefs. Edited September 7, 2016 by XenoFish 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmakazi Posted September 8, 2016 #25 Share Posted September 8, 2016 I think if there was a god that was omni-alloftheabove, it would not be likely to be so interested in us or boulders.... such a being would probably create life and universes frequently and not have walked among us. We'd be like micro-organisms to such a thing....fascinating to study, but who worries about directing the morality a bacterium? (Or impressing bacteria...) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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