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Guilt


Wes4747

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Hi all, thanks for stopping in!

Suppose years ago someone did something horrible. Criminally wrong, action even went against personal morals, and got away with it. Perhaps not everyone would feel the haunt of guilt, but for the purpose of this question let's assume guilt is strong.

Victims are involved, but to attempt ammends, or seek counsel, could land one facing charges.

Can't change the past, how would one go about overcoming debilitive guilt?

All responses appreciated!

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Are we talking about the brutal murder of a jam doughnut here? :huh:

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Lol can't say for sure, a good friend hit me with this last night.

Known him for years, solid guy. He ask me this question and I immediately asked 'what did you do?' Wouldn't tell me, said I would no longer see him as a friend. Instead of prying, figured I might try and help him. Hands were shaky, eyes teary.

Says its hard to look people in the eye, but the guy does great in social settings. Says its a mask.

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1 hour ago, Wes4747 said:

how would one go about overcoming debilitive guilt?

jack-daniels-whiskey-and-glass-170x300.j

Either drown it or many anonymous amends by sending cards to the victims. One way are another you'll do something about guilt.

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He either will have to do some sort of restitution or look for inner peace. As in an external or internal action. Either way he will have to do an action.

 

An external action would be like talking to the victims, giving anonymous money or letters, confession etc. Or even to do charity work or something related to his guilt but still close enough.

A internal thing would be to take like a long wilderness backpacking trip solo, with journaling every night order to come to peace with the mistakes he has made.

One way or another he has to come to peace and accept what he did, accept it was wrong, but also accept that he cant change it and that he is no longer the same person so it is unfair to himself to continue to carry that guilt with him. A lot of times forgiving ourselves is much harder then forgiving others. He needs to find forgiveness.

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Oh yeah and also I'm pretty sure if he talks to a therapist he will be protected under confidentiality 

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28 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Oh yeah and also I'm pretty sure if he talks to a therapist he will be protected under confidentiality 

In the U.K., if he admitted to a therapist that he'd murdered someone he would definitely be reported to the police. Not sure about lesser crimes.

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17 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

In the U.K., if he admitted to a therapist that he'd murdered someone he would definitely be reported to the police. Not sure about lesser crimes.

I can only speak for the U.S. And keep in mind 50 states can have slightly different juristicion. 

But generally things are suppose to be reported if you appear to be a threat to yourself or others. Like if you're planning out or appear to be going to do or abuse someone in the future.

If it is something that happeed years ago then it is not a future threat.

Minor crimes will definitely be ignored.

The therapist is also required to legally tell you at start of session what will and will not be reported

 

Edit: as a social work major ethics and license requiernents get drilled into us since most therapist are clinical social workers so I like to think I know something about it lol

Edited by spartan max2
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I like your ideas Spartan, I'll throw them at him and then tell him to look up confidentiality laws to consider counseling if first strategies don't work.

Never knew he was carrying a rock like that, not sure I want to know what it is.

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It's unlikely that he's going to be able to reconcile himself with what he's done without someone else's help, and unless he explains the episode that's bothering him they're not going to be able to help, so it's a bit of a vicious circle.

You know, some things in life we just have to live with. Perhaps he could accept that the anguish he's feeling is the punishment he thought he'd avoided?

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11 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

It's unlikely that he's going to be able to reconcile himself with what he's done without someone else's help, and unless he explains the episode that's bothering him they're not going to be able to help, so it's a bit of a vicious circle.

You know, some things in life we just have to live with. Perhaps he could accept that the anguish he's feeling is the punishment he thought he'd avoided?

How long ya reckon a person could hold that without snapping? I remember studying the catholic confession system in a secular manner, and in one particular study it portrayed the confession as purging or clearing of the conscious and very beneficial. 

No doubt, when troubled times come it always makes me feel a little better by talking to someone about the issue.

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53 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

It's unlikely that he's going to be able to reconcile himself with what he's done without someone else's help, and unless he explains the episode that's bothering him they're not going to be able to help, so it's a bit of a vicious circle.

You know, some things in life we just have to live with. Perhaps he could accept that the anguish he's feeling is the punishment he thought he'd avoided?

Even if the confidentiality laws don't protect him (which I'm pretty sure they do) all he needs is someone close to him to listen without casting judgement. 

 

I don't believe people should feel guilt for the rest of their lives for an act. We are all only a few steps away from making horrible mistakes ourselves 

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If he's going to loose friends by telling them, maybe be prosecuted (therapists make their own decisions), he may just have to live with it.

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I would say dedicating your life or a majority of your free-time to a cause that supports similar victims of that crime. 

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Be a better person. Try to help others. 

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What about the victim(s) of the crime? If he himself is still suffering, what hell is the victim going through? Perhaps he should think of them and hand himself in ....... although even this is fraught with problems: would the victim prefer to not have everything dragged publicly through court?  

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7 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

What about the victim(s) of the crime? If he himself is still suffering, what hell is the victim going through? Perhaps he should think of them and hand himself in ....... although even this is fraught with problems: would the victim prefer to not have everything dragged publicly through court?  

Good question. I'll ask him tonight.

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I a friend in the same sort of spot. He became a devout Christian. Moved overseas to the UK, and changed from being a criminal, to being a carer. He was one of the most moral, kind and intelligent people I've met. 

But, all the while he was undergoing this transformation, he knew that there were two men who'd been fitted up, and were serving life sentences for his crime. It was organised crime, and the local police were involved in the frame up.

Anyway, after a few years the tone of his home country changed, corruption was cleaned up a bit. Then, someone got arrested, and only for a stupid little crime, but decided to use information they had about his case to bargain with. 

He was arrested, extradited and tried. Initially the trial collapsed, at which point he started to work for a charity dealing with the victims of miscarriages of justice. But, was then re-tried, convicted and is now serving his sentence. 

His was the most serious crime, and hopefully your friend's crime was lesser. And I don't think for one minute my friend's change of life was primarily driven by a sense of regret for what he'd done, as much as by a desire to cleanse himself. 

I suppose what I'm saying is you can change, become a safe place for others in life, and genuinely do good. And that seems like a good way to make amends. But, you have to do it for the right reasons, otherwise it's unlikely to assuage much guilt.  

Although, in my friend's case he was knackered either way.

 

 

 

Edited by oldrover
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On 09/09/2016 at 4:14 PM, Wes4747 said:

Hi all, thanks for stopping in!

Suppose years ago someone did something horrible. Criminally wrong, action even went against personal morals, and got away with it. Perhaps not everyone would feel the haunt of guilt, but for the purpose of this question let's assume guilt is strong.

Victims are involved, but to attempt ammends, or seek counsel, could land one facing charges.

Can't change the past, how would one go about overcoming debilitive guilt?

All responses appreciated!

I would be very careful about any advice you give this person, Wes.

If he is truly suffering from "debilitating guilt", then his course of action should be clear to him - so he would hardly need advice. That he is seeking advice suggests his moral character is still somewhat lacking and there is the chance if you advise him to "come clean" that he will put the (or some of the) responsibility for this action on you, rather than fully accept it for himself. Even if you are not the, or one of the, victim(s) of his past deed you may have to be prepared to lose him as a friend and perhaps suffer his accusations for whatever price he has to pay to ease his guilt.

 

Edited by Leonardo
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I guses I can understand where a lot of people are coming from with the "turn yourself in and accept the consequences". It's a sense of justice, normal human nature.

But I see prison more as a place you put people who are still dangerous to society. 

If someone completely changed. They are basically a different person. Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Would you make the same decisions about things you did 20 years ago?

So if he really did change then all putting him in prison would do is waste another humans life and potential .

Edited by spartan max2
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On 9/12/2016 at 5:40 PM, oldrover said:

I a friend in the same sort of spot. He became a devout Christian. Moved overseas to the UK, and changed from being a criminal, to being a carer. He was one of the most moral, kind and intelligent people I've met. 

But, all the while he was undergoing this transformation, he knew that there were two men who'd been fitted up, and were serving life sentences for his crime. It was organised crime, and the local police were involved in the frame up.

Anyway, after a few years the tone of his home country changed, corruption was cleaned up a bit. Then, someone got arrested, and only for a stupid little crime, but decided to use information they had about his case to bargain with. 

He was arrested, extradited and tried. Initially the trial collapsed, at which point he started to work for a charity dealing with the victims of miscarriages of justice. But, was then re-tried, convicted and is now serving his sentence. 

His was the most serious crime, and hopefully your friend's crime was lesser. And I don't think for one minute my friend's change of life was primarily driven by a sense of regret for what he'd done, as much as by a desire to cleanse himself. 

I suppose what I'm saying is you can change, become a safe place for others in life, and genuinely do good. And that seems like a good way to make amends. But, you have to do it for the right reasons, otherwise it's unlikely to assuage much guilt.  

Although, in my friend's case he was knackered either way.

 

 

 

People can change, I think we have all witnessed the ability. The way you relayed the story made the outcome seem just, as there were two people paying for his crimes.

If his presumed innocence is causing no one else anymore suffering, would it still be justice to face what seems to be harsh consequences. I don't know, and I've been pitting the talk off as he didn't bring it up, I didn't either.

Kinda creepy, not knowing who you're sharing a smoke with when you've been fishing together and shared all kinds of things. I patiently wait for the right words.

Edited by Wes4747
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16 hours ago, Leonardo said:

I would be very careful about any advice you give this person, Wes.

If he is truly suffering from "debilitating guilt", then his course of action should be clear to him - so he would hardly need advice. That he is seeking advice suggests his moral character is still somewhat lacking and there is the chance if you advise him to "come clean" that he will put the (or some of the) responsibility for this action on you, rather than fully accept it for himself. Even if you are not the, or one of the, victim(s) of his past deed you may have to be prepared to lose him as a friend and perhaps suffer his accusations for whatever price he has to pay to ease his guilt.

 

I agree with this, and this appears to be his struggle. If the left hand offends, cut it off situation . I think he wants too, but how hard would it be to literally cut off your own hand?

For him, I suspect it would change every aspect of his life and freedom. And  not sure the guilt would subside if he were to fess up..

As far as his moral character, absolutely it shows something. Perhaps weakness.. But could it not be perceived as a willingness to do right and a desire to get it out? I see it being just as likely that his morals are flawed..

Edited by Wes4747
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1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

I guses I can understand where a lot of people are coming from with the "turn yourself in and accept the consequences". It's a sense of justice, normal human nature.

But I see prison more as a place you put people who are still dangerous to society. 

If someone completely changed. They are basically a different person. Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Would you make the same decisions about things you did 20 years ago?

So if he really did change then all putting him in prison would do is waste another humans life and potential .

Here is my struggle, has he completely changed? I don't know how to be sure. But I just can't imagine this guy doing something that bad??! 

I hate prison, and I think it throws society off.  However, for rapist, murderers, etc., for society to feel safe we lock them up. It doesn't change the person nor do we extensively investigate the causes of the pathologies. And when we can label them, when do we go out and eliminate the environment that opens the door for these expressions?

Consider Charles Manson. Paraphrased quote-I took societies rejects, misfits and gave them a sense of belonging and importance in a world that turned its back on them.- strong words that speak to our society.. We cast out what doesn't fit, and the ones out there struggling- how do they get help in a world of judgements? 

 

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