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Understanding our world


DebDandelion

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Think this is the right thread to ask this?

The world as we know it...

If our understanding is influenced by our perception, at what point is reality real since we all perceive differently? 

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I think the physical world may be perceived differently by every individual but the consequences of imagining it and it's rules to be as varied, can be lethal.  Interesting topic.

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Stating perhaps the obvious... If we all have our own little realities yet we are sharing a space (planet)....whose reality are we sharing.in? Our own?  Or are we merely functioning in someone else reality?

And then turning my own thought pattern against myself...if we all perceive differently how are the rules for society applicable to my perception (compared to someone else) 

The first statement for me is vast. These are only two thoughts...(yours being three)

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I think what you're heading towards here is the understanding, and the difference, of the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity.

To my mind what is objective must be taken to exist as a leap of faith.  That is the realness of something being external, another reality, the reality, must be taken to exist on faith.  Everything is subjective as we perceive.  There is nothing objective that can be confirmed as absolute from perception to my mind. (Perhaps this is what enlightenment is about in Buddhism, confirming the objective, I don't know)  This is what solipsism is about.  The view that the self is all that can be known to exist.  That is, the reality you perceive is the only one you can know to exist.  I think the only true realness or confirmation of the existence of reality lies in your own perception of it.

I ask you this question.  How do you know that I perceive at all?  You can not know that I perceive differently from you because you can not know that I perceive at all I believe.  I could just be a machine.  You could be the only entity that truly perceives.

Reality therefore is real only as your own perceptions of it exists I think.

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I get what you say.i will do it point wise..

Elaborate please why u say objective as a leap of faith and not subjectivity. Isn't objective being rational and subjective having your views influenced by your own experiences? Hence in my head being subjective would be acceptance based on my leap of faith. 

.to answer your question. There is no definite proof that another human perceives, since psychopathic tendencies allow people to mimic responses from others to convince society of their 'normality' if that is a word. Thus no true way of knowing you perceive, but for this discussion, could be entertain the notion that all perceive? 

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5 hours ago, Debstermania said:

I get what you say.i will do it point wise..

Elaborate please why u say objective as a leap of faith and not subjectivity. Isn't objective being rational and subjective having your views influenced by your own experiences? Hence in my head being subjective would be acceptance based on my leap of faith. 

.to answer your question. There is no definite proof that another human perceives, since psychopathic tendencies allow people to mimic responses from others to convince society of their 'normality' if that is a word. Thus no true way of knowing you perceive, but for this discussion, could be entertain the notion that all perceive? 

What I mean is based from your capacity to experience, your capacity to know.  Everything that we know, everything that we experience is something that is processed by the brain.  The view of an external world is actually just your brain processing away.  From this what is external can not necessarily be confirmed.

When I speak of subjectivity and objectivity I'm meaning it in terms of existence.  Subjective and objective existence of reality.  Our intuitions tell us that there exists something "external" or objective to us but this is something that can only by inducted and inductions only lead to probable conclusion, not necessarily true conclusion.

Being rational, or I think what you mean as experience from the external world is actually subjective as your brain generates reality.  One can not truly confirm that you aren't a brain in a jar being fed bogus stimulus by some entity but I'm only speaking of the knowledge of absolute truth here and, I guess, being a bit of a skeptic.

Entertaining that notion, with the premise that we all perceive and that we all perceive differently, I think the "realness" of reality is something that then only exists abstractly as consensus of the majority of those perceiving.  The "sameness" of it, the "realness" of it can not be known as perception from someone else's view point obviously.  We c an only say, in abstract terms, that it is the same thing.  Like scientific theory, and then consensus that what that it is saying is real in terms of our agreement on models, which is abstract.

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Thank u! I do believe I found some answers 

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This is similar to the question. 

Does the red I see look the same as the red you see?

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That for me is a complex question. Reasons:

A) the eye itself might not register the colour as mine does

B.  I might have been taught that red is called tomato but in your upbringing it is fire truck red. So the way our thoughts were sculpted by our parents/peers are influencing our 'ideas'

C. Would emotional influences change how I perceive my visual stimuli. Example: I am angry so I perceive the shade different than you who are relaxed

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1 minute ago, LostSouls7 said:

 

As a magician I create my own reality

Do you create your.own reality that you perceive or do you create a different reality for.people watching you to perceive?

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I always used to have a vision for what kind of life I wanted. and I made it so.

People often hold themselves back. The focus on the negative things, complain, think they will always be

in the same place and they often manifest what they think and feel.

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So your perception of what you wanted guided your actions in life that brought you to the reality of your.life today?

 

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4 minutes ago, LostSouls7 said:

 

I always used to have a vision for what kind of life I wanted. and I made it so.

People often hold themselves back. The focus on the negative things, complain, think they will always be

in the same place and they often manifest what they think and feel.

Who created the vision you speak of having when growing.up? Or better put, what I fluenced your vision of what u want ur life to be like. 

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On 9/24/2016 at 4:33 PM, Debstermania said:

Think this is the right thread to ask this?

The world as we know it...

If our understanding is influenced by our perception, at what point is reality real since we all perceive differently? 

Well , there is 'consensus reality' , it may not be real  reality  ( ;) )  but at least we can get on and do stuff together . 

 

Speaking of real reality .... here anthropologists have come up with some terms to describe levels of reality in the very different minds of many indigenous ; the real  .... the really real ... and the really really real .    technical huh ?   :) 

 

But what about 'other realities '    ...... how about a different 'reality model '  ?   ;  (interesting one for UMers )  .... sort of like the 'overall human consensus reality '  , taking Man's experience with 'reality' over a broad spectrum of history and locations , instead of one culture or time period .  That   ' reality'   is very interesting ; 

 

"    Harpur pursues a different, and more challenging line.  What is at stake, he suggests, is the nature of reality itself.  " 

 

http://www.harpur.org/PJCHdaimonicreality.htm

 

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But what about 'other realities '    ...... how about a different 'reality model '  ?   ;  (interesting one for UMers )  .... sort of like the 'overall human consensus reality '  , taking Man's experience with 'reality' over a broad spectrum of history and locations , instead of one culture or time period .  That   ' reality'   is very interesting ; (back to earth)

That would be an awesome topic!

I don't have enough knowledge to join in That convo but I would read it.

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19 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Well , there is 'consensus reality' , it may not be real  reality  ( ;) )  but at least we can get on and do stuff together . 

 

Speaking of real reality .... here anthropologists have come up with some terms to describe levels of reality in the very different minds of many indigenous ; the real  .... the really real ... and the really really real .    technical huh ?   :) 

 

But what about 'other realities '    ...... how about a different 'reality model '  ?   ;  (interesting one for UMers )  .... sort of like the 'overall human consensus reality '  , taking Man's experience with 'reality' over a broad spectrum of history and locations , instead of one culture or time period .  That   ' reality'   is very interesting ; 

 

"    Harpur pursues a different, and more challenging line.  What is at stake, he suggests, is the nature of reality itself.  " 

 

http://www.harpur.org/PJCHdaimonicreality.htm

 

Read the article. Very interesting.  Like they say pursuing it might prove a challenge.

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I find the idea of consensus reality a scary idea.

I ponder the following.  A consensus reality would also link itself to hierarchy.  Hence in the consensus would be decision makers and leaders. So they would then create the guidelines for the reality, and you as individual needs to conform to those guidelines otherwise you suffer the consequences. 

My challenge being that conforming to guidelines that are not yours or that you  don't make your own is malicious compliance. And at some stage compliance becomes an issue. Hence resistance. 

Then the consensus either disband or it shifts paradigm.

Creation of new reality consensus is born. Cycle repeated. BUT to what cost to humanity? 

Do I make sense?

Edited by Debstermania
Fingers to brain challenge
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Our reality is always changing, tech, over the ages right from starting a fire and cooking some meat on it has consistently made man adapt to his own ingenuity and those that create those innovations are leaders in change,we adapt to those ideas. Yes they can be used to manipulate the majority, but if anyone was paying attention in school and life they should have the requisite tools to not do the things that they don't like and do the things they do like.

jmccr8

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3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Our reality is always changing, tech, over the ages right from starting a fire and cooking some meat on it has consistently made man adapt to his own ingenuity and those that create those innovations are leaders in change,we adapt to those ideas. Yes they can be used to manipulate the majority, but if anyone was paying attention in school and life they should have the requisite tools to not do the things that they don't like and do the things they do like.

jmccr8

I respect your opinion. Thanx

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I would say close to 100% of humans perceive reality very much the same way with their senses. Those who don't are usually physically or mentally disabled.

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8 minutes ago, Zalmoxis said:

I would say close to 100% of humans perceive reality very much the same way with their senses. Those who don't are usually physically or mentally disabled.

Perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly.  The interpretation of the perception is influenced by internal and external factors. Which means my perception of what I experience is different to yours.although we might be experiencing the same event.

So when I try to make sense of what I have experienced it falls within my 'reality' if I work from the basis that we create our.own realities.(Simply put)

Secondly I don't agree that we all perceive with our senses. I do believe some are more inclined to use their emotional/spiritual side to also perceive.

Edited by Debstermania
Fingers to brain challenge
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1 hour ago, Debstermania said:

Perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly.  The interpretation of the perception is influenced by internal and external factors. Which means my perception of what I experience is different to yours.although we might be experiencing the same event.

So when I try to make sense of what I have experienced it falls within my 'reality' if I work from the basis that we create our.own realities.(Simply put)

Secondly I don't agree that we all perceive with our senses. I do believe some are more inclined to use their emotional/spiritual side to also perceive.

Are you using internal as intellective/emotional and external stimuli as separate/ I see that they are interdependent on each other to have an experience of being in the world, and that without external stimuli there is no point for emotion or intellect. :) and vise-versa, to me living is fun and I have had many experiences that were adventures in education.:rolleyes:

jmccr8

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21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Are you using internal as intellective/emotional and external stimuli as separate/ I see that they are interdependent on each other to have an experience of being in the world, and that without external stimuli there is no point for emotion or intellect. :) and vise-versa, to me living is fun and I have had many experiences that were adventures in education.:rolleyes:

jmccr8

Morning ( my side) 

 If don't reply  through the day_ I am working. Not very good with words at times so gonna use examples. If I don't answer what you are asking, feel free to ask again.

Emotional / intellectual stimuli (to me)are.linked . To external stimuli.  Example: dude drives in front of.me, annoyed I say something.  So the external stimuli (seeing what he does) triggers and emotional reaction (annoyed),  using the emotional I react( intellectual). 

Internal stimuli for.me would be like intuitive reactions . (whole new discussion if intuition is triggered externally though,  for me, not..) just my perception I guess. 

So to answer I treat it differently. Independent? 

Where you say they are linked and without external stimuli there is no need for intellectual / emotional.. Haven't thought bout that...for me we find that perceived external stimuli leads to a reaction ( physical). I also feel intuition guides us to react and I wonder whether intuition don't create a intellectual response.  Example: sixth sense tells me it is a bad idea although intellectually I know there are many different outcomes to the situation. So my action isn't guided by intellect but by something else.

Perhaps emotion? 

 

Edited by Debstermania
Brain wave
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On 9/25/2016 at 5:18 PM, Debstermania said:

I find the idea of consensus reality a scary idea.

I ponder the following.  A consensus reality would also link itself to hierarchy.  Hence in the consensus would be decision makers and leaders. So they would then create the guidelines for the reality, and you as individual needs to conform to those guidelines otherwise you suffer the consequences. 

That sounds more like culture than consensus reality .

 

On 9/25/2016 at 5:18 PM, Debstermania said:

My challenge being that conforming to guidelines that are not yours or that you  don't make your own is malicious compliance. And at some stage compliance becomes an issue. Hence resistance. 

Not if you agree with the guidelines .

On 9/25/2016 at 5:18 PM, Debstermania said:

Then the consensus either disband or it shifts paradigm.

Creation of new reality consensus is born. Cycle repeated. BUT to what cost to humanity? 

Do I make sense?

 

yes .... you naughty rebel ! 

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