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"Anti-Mosque" Law Passed in Italy


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8dc425b2acbf9c68064b8a63eae1ffbc_L.jpg
Above: Viva la Italia

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The Italian region of Liguria has approved a controversial law that may make it almost impossible for new mosques to be built in the area. Critics describe the law as anti-constitutional.

The set of new rules suggested by the Northern League party was adopted by a narrow majority, with 16 votes in favor and 15 against on Wednesday, according to Italian newspaper Il Secolo XIX.


https://www.rt.com/news/361111-italy-liguria-mosques-law/

Believe it or not, this might not have anything to do with "Islamiphobia" (I despise that word.)

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The new restrictions define the criteria a new religious building should meet to gain a construction permit.

Any such construction must not run counter to the “architectural and dimensional suitability of religious buildings with the general and specific characteristics of the Ligurian landscape,” the paper reported, meaning mosques and minarets may be found “un-Ligurian” and as such don’t belong to the current image of the region.

Interestingly, it's all about the aesthetics. I suppose one could build a Mosque that looked just the neighboring buildings and you would be fine..

However, there is also this:

https://www.rt.com/news/356708-pisa-italy-mosque-rally/

Quote

Hundreds of residents of the Italian city of Pisa have staged a rally, calling for others to sign a petition against the planned construction of a mosque only 400 meters to the city’s main attraction, the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
The rally was organized at the city market of the city of some 90,000 residents. According to Ruptly video agency, hundreds of people took part in the protest.

Now pay attention to the language used by the rally organizers:

Quote

 

“For this [we organize] a ‘No Mosque’ [petition to hold a] referendum, we have collected many more signatures that is needed by law. First, we need to create a law to regulate Mosques' and imam's actions and then hold discussions.”

She called on the people of Italy to “go on and fight for [their] national identity and the pride of being called Italians not only by law, but by [their] traditions and culture.”

“Hate is not coming from our side. We do not place bombs in airports, subways or places, where young people listen to music. That is why hate is coming from them [Muslim terrorists]. We Italians have always been kind. But now we are looking at pseudo-solidarity.”

Nationalism is not a uniquely American or British idea - it's a fire that was started by Brexit and fueled by the will of the people. This is a time of rapid political and social change...how the world will look when all this dust settles is anyone's guess. I hope it's still recognizable.

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I can understand the point from an architectural and culture point of view.  There is no doubt the traditional construction of a mosque does not at all blend into the traditional Italian theme, and the Old Country is definitely one of the things that draws tourists into Italy, as well as being a source of pride for the Italians themselves.

I do wish the statement made by the rally organizers had not been phrased the way it was, but I've known enough Italians to know the undertone isn't what it feels like it would be if it had been said in America.

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I think it might also have something in relation to UNESCO Heritage status of the region ...

~

If you look for examples of mosques in China and Mosques in India ...you'll be surprised on how what constitutes as 'traditional' architecture in regards to Mosques ~

 

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There are many historical places in the US that have the same regulations. Even fast food chains like McDonalds have to blend in with the area architecture...no golden arches.

It's a shame people always have to try and twist it into something it isn't.

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well to be fair McD doesn't quite measure up on the same scale as a place of religious worship ... but the point on aesthetics and cultural heritage in regards to architecture principles in relation to the UNESCO Historical Protected status requirements is the key point here ~

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26 minutes ago, third_eye said:

If you look for examples of mosques in China and Mosques in India ...you'll be surprised on how what constitutes as 'traditional' architecture in regards to Mosques ~

I'll be the first to admit I'm not familiar enough with traditional Muslim architecture to discuss at a more than superficial level, but I suspect that mosques, like churches, have a traditional form, and then they have a more practical form, whether for pragmatic purposes (such as the strip mall church) or simply to blend in, as the rally people would presumably be okay with (I'm not sure what a Ligurian-style mosque would look like).

Honestly, Ligurian architecture seems kinda of like "older apartment building" to me.  I find it has its charm, but I don't know if I would consider it a particular style, or more of a "that's the what we built for the lower-middle-class".

Edited by aquatus1
I uses bad grammar.
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Just now, aquatus1 said:

I'll be the first to admit I'm not familiar enough with traditional Muslim architecture to discuss at a more than superficial level, but I suspect that mosques, like churches, have a traditional form, and then they have a more practical form, whether for pragmatic purposes (such as the strip mall church) or simply to blend in, as the rally people would presumably be okay with (I'm not sure what a mosque would look like.

Honestly, Ligurian architecture seems kinda of like "older apartment building" to me.  I find it has its charm, but I don't know if I would consider it a particular style, or more of a "that's the what we built for the lower-middle-class".

This reminds me of that Robert M. Pirsig argument presented in his book "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

' Is the Church the building or the congregation in the building .... ? '

substitute 'Church' here with 'Mosque' and the narrative is the same ...

Or something like that ... the commonality throughout is mainly that there are to be no graven or painted images ... the familiar images we know as mosques is specifically Middle Eastern Architecture ... and not every Muslim community can afford those kind of extravagance ...

~

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6 minutes ago, third_eye said:

well to be fair McD doesn't quite measure up on the same scale as a place of religious worship ... but the point on aesthetics and cultural heritage in regards to architecture principles in relation to the UNESCO Historical Protected status requirements is the key point here ~

Building codes are just building codes. Any place of worship should not be an exception. A particular style of building isn't required in any religion.

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Just now, Michelle said:

Building codes are just building codes. Any place of worship should not be an exception. A particular style of building isn't required in any religion.

Stylistically it can be anything as long as it abides by those codes ... Heritage Cultural status is a range of 'protected' styles that covers more than just building codes ...

Something I have to add in regards to the Principles of designs in regards to a Mosque that I missed earlier ... the specific areas for the ritual 'cleansing' .. the washing up before entering the mosque (has to be running water) and the separate areas for the sexes .. the rest are pretty much basic in relation to where according to the geodesic direction is towards Mecca ... there a few more but better google those as I don't think I remember it all that well ... I'd do that but my connection here is a bit slow now ... my quota is up and I've not paid up/top up yet :lol: 

Been some time since I last talked about the subject ... if I'm not wrong it would be when I was working for the landscaping projects and that was about 8 to 9 years ago ...

I always enjoyed the moments when I visited a mosque ... those big grand ones ... comparing it to an oasis after a day in a desert is no exaggeration ~

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44 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Building codes are just building codes. Any place of worship should not be an exception. A particular style of building isn't required in any religion.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that traditionally a Mosque's minaret is supposed to be the tallest structure in the town/village/city where it exists.  I have no idea if that's accurate but that is the only specific style issue I've heard of.  Speaking of "worship buildings" a funny thing happened when we lived in central Mississippi.  A very affluent town just north of where we lived called Madison, actually were able to negotiate a major change in the styling of a Walmart Super Center.  If you know much about Wally world, that is - or at least was - a really impressive accomplishment.  Walmart fought the changes for months but the young lady who was their Mayor held firm and the town was able to help with the actual design so that the facade "fit" the community.  As I said, Madison is a VERY affluent town ;)   These days in America I think it's safe to say a LOT of folks have consumerism as their religion so Walmart is technically a "worship place" :)  When I used to travel frequently for work I had a co worker who always referred to Walmart as "the Mothership"  :w00t:

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I believe the Minaret question is somewhat provisional and conditional ... something along the lines of - if available if best and possible ...

The minaret was designed for broadcasting of the 'azan' so higher is better ... but not always possible so the next best is to be considered ~

Anyhow the Masjid / Mesjid is just variants of the term 'central place of worship' and it can take many shapes and forms ... the principal requirement is that it be clean, facing Mecca and not for worshiping idols ... that's why you can see Muslims praying in airports and roadsides and all over the place as long as those conditions are met to the best possible and available circumstance ...

~

technically it can be something like this :

640px-A_nomad%27s_mosque_in_the_eastern_

Sima shimony - Own work

Abu Sami, a Bedouin from the eastern desert of Jordan, prays in a nomad's mosque pointing towards Mecca. Notice the pair of sandals outside the mosque.

 

~

to this :

Niujie_Mosques02.jpg

The Niujie Mosque in Beijing, China

Smartneddy - Own work

The Niujie Mosque (Chinese: 牛街清真寺; pinyin: niújiē qīngzhēnsì) is the oldest mosque in Beijing, China. It was built in 996 and completely rebuilt under the Kangxi Emperor (1622-1722).

 

~

to this :

640px-Jama_Masjid%2C_Delhi.jpg

 

Description
English: Jama Masjid, Jama Mosque, Delhi India
Date 2012
Source Own work (Original text: self-made)
Author

Muhammad Mahdi Karim (www.micro2macro.net) Facebook Youtube

~

And also the more commonly known Grand Superlative Fantastic Mosques of the Wealthy Arab nations ...

~

Quote

Under most interpretations of sharia, non-Muslims are permitted to enter mosques provided that they respect the place and the people inside it. Prophet Muhammad once allowed a group of Christians to pray inside Al-Masjid al-Nabawi for their Sunday worship.[82] A dissenting opinion and minority view is presented by followers of the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence, who argue that non-Muslims may not be allowed into mosques under any circumstances.[75]

~

Nowadays it depends more on who is visiting than whether it is allowed or not ...

I can't think of any US or Europe Nation leader who has not visited a Mosque during their entire tenure in office ...

~

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I'm sure God doesn't demand that we pray to him from sumptuous, glorious buildings.

He would be just as happy to get praise from a humble dwelling, as long as it was heart-felt. It would be just as effective, too.

So I see no reason why any faiths need their places of worship to look unlike the dwellings and buildings in any local area.

Obviously we should keep the existing buildings (mosques, cathedrals, etc.) as they are beautiful and historic and important culturally, but there is no  reason for new faith buildings to look any different from any other civic building in a locality.

 

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On 01/10/2016 at 1:52 AM, third_eye said:

This reminds me of that Robert M. Pirsig argument presented in his book "Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

' Is the Church the building or the congregation in the building .... ? '

substitute 'Church' here with 'Mosque' and the narrative is the same ...

 

~

FWIW the Catholic church offers this - a church (note the lower case "c") is a group of people united in worship/faith while a Church (again, note the upper case "C") is a building.

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In this case, being so close to the towns main tourist attraction, the leaning Tower of Pisa, I can see their concern. The last thing they want is another "tower" in such close proximity no matter who owns it.

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22 hours ago, Lord Fedorable said:

FWIW the Catholic church offers this - a church (note the lower case "c") is a group of people united in worship/faith while a Church (again, note the upper case "C") is a building.

I wrote that too early in the morning, it's the other way around - building is the little "c" church.

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On 30/9/2016 at 4:17 PM, aquatus1 said:

I can understand the point from an architectural and culture point of view. 1)  There is no doubt the traditional construction of a mosque does not at all blend into the traditional Italian theme, and the Old Country is definitely one of the things that draws tourists into Italy, as well as being a source of pride for the Italians themselves.

I do wish the statement made by the rally organizers had not been phrased the way it was, 2) but I've known enough Italians to know the undertone isn't what it feels like it would be if it had been said in America.

Regarding the bolded parts:

1) It depends, have you ever been to Sicily? 

 

2) I've known my fair share of Italians as well and I can assure you that the tone is exactly the same. 

Hate and xenophobia bloom everywhere. 

 

On 30/9/2016 at 5:47 PM, and then said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere that traditionally a Mosque's minaret is supposed to be the tallest structure in the town/village/city where it exists.  I have no idea if that's accurate but that is the only specific style issue I've heard of.

That's traditionally true also for churches' towers,  especially in Italy. 

In the Middle Ages,  especially during the commune period and the Late Middle Ages,  in Italy it was almost a race between the church tower and the town hall tower (so religious and secular powers) for which was taller. 

This contributed to the development of quite a few architectural jewels. 

 

On 30/9/2016 at 4:43 PM, aquatus1 said:

Honestly, Ligurian architecture seems kinda of like "older apartment building" to me.  I find it has its charm, but I don't know if I would consider it a particular style, or more of a "that's the what we built for the lower-middle-class".

Well,  it depends what you mean by "lower-middle-class". 

I'm not particularly fond of Ligurian architecture, but if these are scrap houses for poor people,  I can't imagine a luxury house!

17050.jpg

f6d19b4783.jpg

 

Anyway, I'd like to put things a bit into context. 

The petition in Liguria has been started by the Lega Nord (or Northern League in English) that's a racist,  xenophobic and quite right-wingy party (although now they tried to face lift and sell themselves as a more moderate party, they're always the same;  at least before they were less hypocrite). 

Just to understand, one of their founders, Maurizio Borghezio (now member of the European Parliament), is famous because, among many other things,  more than once as a public gesture he cleaned train seats, that were "dirty"  because black people sat on them. 

The law is clearly anti-Mosque and anti-Muslim: they simply, and quite smartly, chose an indirect way to hit them,  since a straight one would have been blocked righr away. 

The law is still up to review,  since it's deemed unconstitutional by other parties. 

 

The rally at Pisa,  although I agree with the basic principle, is something more than a legit fight against a really stupid project.

It has been put forward by yet another extreme right wing group,  where at their head (or at least as a front woman) there's Daniela Santanche, who was one of the top dogs of the old Alleanza Nazionale (or National Alliance),  better known as the fascists' party (literally fascist, the ones who still cry Mussolini and in their meetings use the roman salute). 

Now that party doesn't exist anymore (it was merged with another one),  but only by name. 

And by the way the petition has been denied for a technicality,  so the Mosque, for now, will still be built. 

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Anti Mosque does not defaults as anti Islam/Muslim ... well at least on principle or on paper based on Laws or Codes ...

I guess in the bigger scheme of things in the matter, it does rest on the reasoning in pursuing the letter of the Law in such regards but then again if the Laws are in place there is very little means by way of options in regards to the 'building' that is the mosque, the Muslims though will still be left to practice their Religious precepts unmolested and protection provided by Law ...

~

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7 hours ago, Parsec said:

I've known my fair share of Italians as well and I can assure you that the tone is exactly the same. 

Hate and xenophobia bloom everywhere. 

 

I'm totally unfamiliar with the group you mention so I will take your word for their biases.  I would point out that while Italians and Europeans in general, are as prone to hate and xenophobia as any other group of humans, the reaction by the average Italian can be understood within the current context.  People are flooding in who do not speak the language and share almost none of the mores of their community. Among these same people, there is a substantial fraction which has shown themselves to be violent and demanding.  Add to this the existing economic situation and it seems clear where this law comes from.  It is probably a first step in what may become a dangerous situation for the peace of Europe.  I am not trying to justify hatred, I simply can see both sides here.  As to the blooming of hatred and xenophobia, Saudi Arabia is possibly the best example of that on the planet.

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On 10/4/2016 at 7:51 AM, alibongo said:

I'm sure God doesn't demand that we pray to him from sumptuous, glorious buildings.

He would be just as happy to get praise from a humble dwelling, as long as it was heart-felt. It would be just as effective, too.

So I see no reason why any faiths need their places of worship to look unlike the dwellings and buildings in any local area.

Obviously we should keep the existing buildings (mosques, cathedrals, etc.) as they are beautiful and historic and important culturally, but there is no  reason for new faith buildings to look any different from any other civic building in a locality.

 

Islam has a very different view of God.

I listened to an Imam speaking recently and he described Allah, or God as beauty and love, when they build beautiful buildings, he described that as a manifestation of God through beauty, because Muslims can see God in everything beautiful. He also said whatever you imagine God to look like, he will be different, because God is beyond Human constraints. 

Not like the Western version of a giant Charlton Heston in the sky. 

Not that I buy into that nonsense, but besides the aesthetic appeal, several Mosques right here on the Gold Coast in Australia have been refused on local tenant grounds as traffic increases greatly, noise is a problem, what with the 4am call to prayer over bloody loudspeakers. Infrastructure should also be considered. 

Islam is not making a lot of friends at the moments are they? Frances wrong reaction, and now this. Interesting to see what the future holds. 

Edited by psyche101
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