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Unusual feature near Paviland Cave


oldrover

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A reply on another thread has reminded me of something I've wanted to ask someone in know about for a couple of years.

And just to be clear, I don't think this is evidence of a pedestrianisation scheme from the Devonian, a Carboniferous patio, or anything else, other than a natural feature in the rock. 

About five years ago I visited Paviland Cave, which is only a couple of miles from me but not very conveniently accessible. After looking around the cave the tide came in, so we made our way back up the gulley to the right of the cave. About halfway up I noticed an unusual feature. 

It was a hole, which I remember was roughly circular and smooth sided, and about ten or twelve inches in diameter. It was approximately ten or twelve inches deep. But, at the bottom was what looked to be a perfectly level and flat surface with a perfectly straight gap, about a cm or less wide, which ran along the entire visible length of the flat face, dividing it in two. 

The impression was that you were looking through a shallow hole at a detail of a paved area. I've done an incredibly high tech reconstruction of this which will appear somewhere in this post. I've also highlighted the rough area on a photo of the cave and some of the surrounding area.

I'm sure Paviland, and the geology of the area are familiar to most people, except, as this post makes quite clear, to me. But, of the type of rocks that make up the area;

Gower rocks - consisting mainly of Devonian and Carboniferous sediments with (possible) Triassic and extensive Quaternary cover - are folded and faulted in a regionally consistent way.

https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Gower

I don't recall what the rocks were like surrounding the hole, only that they formed the shallow cliff side we were climbing up, so not level. I think they though they were smooth limestone. The surface of the area which looked paved, though did have a lightly textured surface. 

I've always been very curious as to how that might have formed. 

feature.jpg

Pavilland.jpg

Edited by oldrover
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In case it's relevant, this is a wider photo of the area showing the way the strata(?) of the rocks are tilted upward from their original plane.

Image result for south gower cliffs

Thanks for reading.

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  1. One question... Did you find and dinosaur eggs there?
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41 minutes ago, oldrover said:

I don't recall what the rocks were like surrounding the hole, only that they formed the shallow cliff side we were climbing up, so not level. I think they though they were smooth limestone. The surface of the area which looked paved, though did have a lightly textured surface. 

I've always been very curious as to how that might have formed. 

Sea levels probably had something to do with it as well as the formation of the cave. The cave is famous for the 'Red Lady' that was found there in the early 1900s as well as a treasure trove of other archaeological finds.

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47 minutes ago, MissJatti said:
  1. One question... Did you find and dinosaur eggs there?

I didn't. Plenty of dinosaurs nesting on those cliffs though, some quite rare. But luckily none of their eggs rolled down the hill that day.

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56 minutes ago, Clair said:

Sea levels probably had something to do with it as well as the formation of the cave. The cave is famous for the 'Red Lady' that was found there in the early 1900s as well as a treasure trove of other archaeological finds.

Yeah, very possibly. 

A lot of the caves round here have given up archaeological finds. It's surprising just how long some of them were intermittently used by people. 

About five years ago, this is what prompted me to finally make the effort to visit Paviland, they found a 14,000 year old cave engraving in one of our inland caves. 

Funny thing is, they didn't release the name of the cave at first. So you had to do a little research based on the article to narrow it down. I did this,got it right, visited the cave known as Cat Hole, saw the carving and left. But, this is the funny part, someone else did the same as me. Read the article, checked dates of prior excavations it listed, compared them with records available for the area. Worked out the right cave. Then, they went to their tool box, picked up chisel and went and defaced it. Now, the whole cave is behind steel bars, so no one can see it anymore. 

Sometimes people are quite strange. 

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1 minute ago, oldrover said:

Yeah, very possibly. 

A lot of the caves round here have given up archaeological finds. It's surprising just how long some of them were intermittently used by people. 

About five years ago, this is what prompted me to finally make the effort to visit Paviland, they found a 14,000 year old cave engraving in one of our inland caves. 

Funny thing is, they didn't release the name of the cave at first. So you had to do a little research based on the article to narrow it down. I did this,got it right, visited the cave known as Cat Hole, saw the carving and left. But, this is the funny part, someone else did the same as me. Read the article, checked dates of prior excavations it listed, compared them with records available for the area. Worked out the right cave. Then, they went to their tool box, picked up chisel and went and defaced it. Now, the whole cave is behind steel bars, so no one can see it anymore. 

Sometimes people are quite strange. 

My guess is that the secrecy is designed to keep people away for the very same reason the cave is now barred shut. Vandalism is always a problem, although I'm sure there were probably some safety concerns as well. But it's too bad as it would be a great place to explore. You're lucky to live near there by the way, as it looks like a really beautiful area.

Oh and, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the archaeological finds there, but in a huge plot twist, the Red Lady turned out to be a man!

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The only think I can think off hand is that someone had taken a rock core sample?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample

btw, I know where Paviland is, but haven't got around to visiting yet; one of many places of archaeological and geological interest still on my very long list of place to visit in Britain before I start abroad (I expect to start on Ireland in around 300 years time :D )

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1 hour ago, Essan said:

The only think I can think off hand is that someone had taken a rock core sample?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample

btw, I know where Paviland is, but haven't got around to visiting yet; one of many places of archaeological and geological interest still on my very long list of place to visit in Britain before I start abroad (I expect to start on Ireland in around 300 years time :D )

To be honest I think the size was a bit too large for a core sample, but, then I'm not sure how big theyget.

I'd definitely recommend a trip to Paviland, plus there's plenty of other bone caves around Gower. And, Dan yr Ogof is just up the road, as well as the Cambrian rocks in Pembrokeshire. But then of course, I realise you already know all that. 

Edited by oldrover
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Did the location where the hole was subject to water that could have spun a stone to create the hole?

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2 hours ago, oldrover said:

To be honest I think the size was a bit too large for a core sample, but, then I'm not sure how big theyget.

I'd definitely recommend a trip to Paviland, plus there's plenty of other bone caves around Gower. And, Dan yr Ogof is just up the road, as well as the Cambrian rocks in Pembrokeshire. But then of course, I realise you already know all that. 

I dont know either.  

I think I may have visted Rhosilli with my parents as a young kid.   But a trip around the Gower is near the top of my list.   Not actually been in Dan yr Ogof but I know the Brecon Beacons well :) 

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38 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Did the location where the hole was subject to water that could have spun a stone to create the hole?

Truth is I don't know. Now, I'd say this is well above the tide line. Even extreme tides, although we do have quite a tidal range round here. That's not to say in the past, even the distant past, things may have been different. As I say, some of the rocks around there are Devonian and Carboniferous. But, I don't know to what extent the outer face of the rock would have been worn down, or over what timescale. Or, whether it's an ancient feature that could have been exposed by a fracture off of a later/earlier layer. 

It was more the unusually flat face at the bottom of the hole, with its straight fracture(?) running across it that intrigued me.

Could it be that what I was looking at was a hole in one layer of rock, and through that looking at a flat face of a different layer that'd just happened to split/cracked very uniformly at the point where it was visible?

A lot of the rocks in that area down in the tidal zone have been weathered/eroded into some very unusual shapes.

Image result for overton gower

You can see a few of these over the shoulder of the guy in the photo. 

 

Edited by oldrover
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23 minutes ago, Essan said:

I think I may have visted Rhosilli with my parents as a young kid.   But a trip around the Gower is near the top of my list.   Not actually been in Dan yr Ogof but I know the Brecon Beacons well

A trip to Gower is well worth it. Don't forget the north coastline though, it's very different but beautiful. 

I've only been to Dan Yr Ogof once when I was really small. I demanded to be taken out after a very short distance. 

I love the Beacons, especially Carmarthen Fan. 

Edited by oldrover
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5 minutes ago, oldrover said:

Truth is I don't know. Now, I'd say this is well above the tide line. Even extreme tides, although we do have quite a tidal range round here. That's not to say in the past, even the distant past, things may have been different. As I say, some of the rocks around there are Devonian and Carboniferous. But, I don't know to what extent the outer face of the rock would have been worn down, or over what timescale. Or, whether it's an ancient feature that could have been exposed by a fracture off of a later/earlier layer. 

Here's an explanation for the cave and the cave floor depressions. Could the excavations have also been responsible for the hole perhaps?

The cave was formed by the sea when sea levels were up to 8 metres higher than today's. Within the chamber, daylight gleams from the chimney 20 metres above, barely illuminating two hollows upon the cave floor. These depressions are the remnants of the two major excavations of the cave, dated 1823 and 1912.

Source: Explore Gower

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5 minutes ago, Clair said:

Here's an explanation for the cave and the cave floor depressions. Could the excavations have also been responsible for the hole perhaps?

Yes, that does sound like a likely explanation for the hole. So presumably, the paved like surface is just another layer visible underneath.

Nice one Clair. 

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could the bottom bit be part of  some type of 'tessellated pavement '

 

Image result for 'tessellated pavement '

 

rocks !  dontchya luv em !  

 

Nawarla Gabarnmang  :

Image result for Nawarla Gabarnmang

 

Image result for Nawarla Gabarnmang

 

Image result for Nawarla Gabarnmang              Image result for Nawarla Gabarnmang                  

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9 hours ago, back to earth said:

could the bottom bit be part of  some type of 'tessellated pavement '

 

Image result for 'tessellated pavement '

 

               

It looked like a detail of that type of thing. Interesting things rocks. I'd largely overlooked them until now. I do intend to learn a bit more. 

Interesting looking landscape you have in your area. 

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Not exactly my area. mine has remnant 'Gondwanaland'  forests 

 

Image result for crystal shower falls NSW

 

Image result for antarctic beech forest NSW

 

Down in the 'hole' 

Image result for dorrigo plateau

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Ohhh yeah !    ' Fairy Glenn' , eh ?    We have a section on our property named that, Got it checked out by National Parks guy, he came back amazed, found many specimens of flora and fauna rare or endangered . 

My area is more in the  central  eastern coast area  .

 

Image result for bellingen shire nsw

 

Got access to a wide range of paces; beaches, forests mountains , river. 

 

Shall we continue with geology ?   This area has a very interesting  geological history   , those 'mountains' are the edge of a plateau ,  the top of the plateau is in post 18 pic. 

The hump to the left  ( edit ; pic was 'auto censored'   :huh: )   is a very interesting feature  and has a lot of localized indigenous significance   ( and, interestingly enough, the indigenous 'story' of its 'formation', although described in a 'mythological context' follows some of  the geological formative history. 'Old Man Dreaming ' ; it has the very clear large face of an aboriginal warrior jutting out of the western face and gazing up the valley.  

 

 

Its a wild place to live , waterfalls going under roads

 

Image result for dorrigo road flooding

 

and in the wet season   ( same view)  from other direction

 

Image result for dorrigo road flooding

 

Image result for dorrigo road flooding

 

No way I a driving through that ! 

 

Edited by back to earth
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Christ, I thought we had rain. 

The area looks really beautiful. I envy you your wildlife too. 

I know what you mean about "beaches, forests mountains , river", we have the same, except for the forests. Most of our indigenous forest has been cleared. There are patches, even of rain forest, but not much. Most of our trees now are alien pine plantations. 

Mountain wise, we have three main ranges, my local mountains, the Brecon Beacons, the Cambrians, then Snowdonia. 

The Beacons and the Cambrians (the Cambrians are more highlands than mountains) are both predominantly sandstone. Although the Beacons, as I understand it are mostly 'old red sandstone' with quite a bit of limestone in the west. Whereas Snowdonia is largely volcanic. I don't know enough about this. Each area looks quite distinct.

Image result for carmarthen fans

Western Beacons, you can see the red sandstone poking through. And, the Cambrians below.

Image result for welsh desert

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The Cambrians are very bleak, but I like that.

Snowdonia though are more your 'glam' mountains, and the most beautiful I think. 

Image result for snowdon

Especially in winter

Image result for snowdon in winter

Or Autumn

Image result for snowdonia in autumn

 

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I often watch docos on tv on those areas - great stuff thanks :)

 

Bleak .     here the words best used in the interior are old , worn down, weathered, ancient .  Some of the oldest land surface in the world  ( cratons ) and the oldest crystal found ( zircon dated to the speculated time of the formation of the Moon ) 

 

Image result for Mcdonald ranges

 

Yet hidden amongst it in places ;

Image result for australian outback gorges

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Old Rover, I think I have seen something something similar to your description, but it was inside a cave.  Sometimes when a subterranean stream flows onto another plane it is through a hole and the view through is of a smooth flat bed.  

Could it be that the feature you describe is the remnant of an underground streamway as water flows through such a soft point onto another bedding plane?.

My speleological adventures are far behind me now unfortunately.

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