Kabba

[hetrodoxly]

How old is the Kaaba, tradition says it was built by Ibrahim and Ishmael but when was it really built?

[jaylemurph]

Would that there was some manner of online encyclopedia -- a site where you could type in the object of your inquiry and bring up an article (or articles!) associated with that topic, that would give you a run down of pertinent information and theories about that inquiry. An idea for future web designers and programmers, no?

--Jaylemurph

[jmccr8]

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/art-islam/beginners-guide-islamic/a/the-kaaba

That's more than I knew 30 seconds ago

jmccr8

[hetrodoxly]

37 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Would that there was some manner of online encyclopedia -- a site where you could type in the object of your inquiry and bring up an article (or articles!) associated with that topic, that would give you a run down of pertinent information and theories about that inquiry. An idea for future web designers and programmers, no?

--Jaylemurph

You could say that about all subjects, what would be the point of forums like this?

[hetrodoxly]

29 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/art-islam/beginners-guide-islamic/a/the-kaaba

That's more than I knew 30 seconds ago

jmccr8

This is the problem most of the information available comes from Islamic sources written down hundreds of years after the event, this is best done by forgetting the religion as much as possible can we date Mecca?

[jmccr8]

I personally can't, and doubt that there is much in the form of verifiable records outside of what I saw in my brief search, because it is based on religious records there may not be much that can be gleaned and I would think that again because of the religious significance it would be unlikely that carbon dating or any other scientific research would be allowed.

jmccr8

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

You could say that about all subjects, what would be the point of forums like this?

Expansion, clarification, association and reasoning

[hetrodoxly]

39 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I personally can't, and doubt that there is much in the form of verifiable records outside of what I saw in my brief search, because it is based on religious records there may not be much that can be gleaned and I would think that again because of the religious significance it would be unlikely that carbon dating or any other scientific research would be allowed.

jmccr8

It's whats not written that stands out, Mecca's been dug up constantly but from word coming out no remains of an ancient city are ever found.

[hetrodoxly]

4 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Expansion, clarification, association and reasoning

I agree.

Edited October 8, 2016 by hetrodoxly

[Hanslune]

55 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

This is the problem most of the information available comes from Islamic sources written down hundreds of years after the event, this is best done by forgetting the religion as much as possible can we date Mecca?

There are no other sources than Islamic. I don't recall any mention of the Kaaba or earlier structures in ancient writings. Given if the writings we do have are accurate that would mean the Kaaba was assembled from or modified from a pre-Islamic enclosure. Given the endless construction at the site I would suspect the entire area is disturbed. If there is any archaeological data from that I'm not aware of it.

You might ask posters here called Atlalante or Kenement both of whom read extensively in ancient writings

 

[jmccr8]

Do you have any links that I can see, I am not familiar with this subject so quite limited in making and comments of significance.

jmccr8

[Hanslune]

Just now, hetrodoxly said:

Yes that's the point of the thread, why am i having to explain myself?

Some subjects have limited information which defeats the attempts to do so.

I made a recommendation on two part time posters who might have information on this. I will check with an Arabic source too.

[Hanslune]

14 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

It's whats not written that stands out, Mecca's been dug up constantly but from word coming out no remains of an ancient city are ever found.

Profane matters don't matter to the Saudi's. I once met a religious policeman, Abeid Said Al-Turki a muṭawwiʿūn who as a first assignment helped to concrete over the mythical tomb of Eve at Jeddah.

Why you may ask? The Wahabbis don't like tombs especially if people come to worship at them or treat them like saintly places.

One mention of Mecca in ancient writing is here: C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts,1935, p. 217.

Here is the link to that cite:

https://archive.org/stream/diodorusofsicily02dioduoft#page/216/mode/2up

Edited October 8, 2016 by Hanslune

[hetrodoxly]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Do you have any links that I can see, I am not familiar with this subject so quite limited in making and comments of significance.

jmccr8

There is a lot work on the subject being done at the moment, early mosques faced Petra, the region was mapped by the Romans who don't mention Mecca and it wasn't really on a trade route.

[jmccr8]

Just now, hetrodoxly said:

There is a lot work on the subject being done at the moment, early mosques faced Petra, the region was mapped by the Romans who don't mention Mecca and it wasn't really on a trade route.

So is there some connection to Petra with Islam?

jmccr8

[Hanslune]

7 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

There is a lot work on the subject being done at the moment, early mosques faced Petra, the region was mapped by the Romans who don't mention Mecca and it wasn't really on a trade route.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

 

Later

[hetrodoxly]

4 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Profane matters don't matter to the Saudi's. I once met a religious policeman, Abeid Said Al-Turki a muṭawwiʿūn who as a first assignment helped to concrete over the mythical tomb of Eve at Jeddah.

Why you may ask? The Wahabbis don't like tombs especially if people come to worship at them or treat them like saintly places.

One mention of Mecca in ancient writing is here: C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts,1935, p. 217.

Does it actually say 'Mecca' the science of 'it sounds like' is used a lot regarding this subject and whats the date? it can be dated from around 700.

[hetrodoxly]

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

So is there some connection to Petra with Islam?

jmccr8

There's a book coming out next month stating 'yes'

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

There's a book coming out next month stating 'yes'

Is it an impartial perspective or religious based?

jmccr8

[hetrodoxly]

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Is it an impartial perspective or religious based?

jmccr8

I think it's impartial  the guy has lived in the region for over 30 years, he's publishing a white paper next month.

Edited October 9, 2016 by hetrodoxly

[jmccr8]

13 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html

 

Later

Thanks Hanslune

[hetrodoxly]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Thanks Hanslune

They would say so wouldn't they, and it still doesn't add up.

[jmccr8]

Just now, hetrodoxly said:

They would say so wouldn't they, and it still doesn't add up.

I haven't finished reading the link Hanslune furnished yet but do find it interesting. I may use a map and triangulate it myself just to see for curiosity sake. I haven't read enough to see which are the oldest mosques yet but think that that would be a factor after having read what I have so far.

jmccr8

[hetrodoxly]

16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I haven't finished reading the link Hanslune furnished yet but do find it interesting. I may use a map and triangulate it myself just to see for curiosity sake. I haven't read enough to see which are the oldest mosques yet but think that that would be a factor after having read what I have so far.

jmccr8

You have to know where the qibla is, it's not easy to work out on many of the old mosques, this guy as visited them all and says he has a fool proof formula.

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

They would say so wouldn't they, and it still doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up? Surveying a direction over long distances was rather poor in the time frame we are talking about.

What is the conclusion of this fine fellow that the Qibla pointed to either Jerusalem or Petra (why Petra?) and this means what about Islam?

Edited October 9, 2016 by Hanslune