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Is Revelation Heresy?


aka CAT

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If you look at the last page of the Old Testament before the new, the last few words are, "With a curse." Then it's the Book of Matthew and Jesus.  To help that out, Paul later says in one of his letters, something along the lines of, "That you should be as curses,".  This kinda goes along with what was said by God in the Old Testament, around Moses, where God said he would make Israel a blessing to the Nations.  Afterall, the gospel is a tragedy though?  But it's said strife makes fertile ground.

 

I mean, you know the Vatican is hiding great resources of ancient texts in Churches, and under the Vatican itself.  They could have just gone with authorities and taken all the evidence, and census info and hid them by force, and all evidence of Jesus, and covered all their tracks 1000 years ago or more, 1500 years ago.  They had the power to do things like this.

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1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

If you look at the last page of the Old Testament before the new, the last few words are, "With a curse." Then it's the Book of Matthew and Jesus.  To help that out, Paul later says in one of his letters, something along the lines of, "That you should be as curses,".  This kinda goes along with what was said by God in the Old Testament, around Moses, where God said he would make Israel a blessing to the Nations.  Afterall, the gospel is a tragedy though?  But it's said strife makes fertile ground.

Balaam the oracle was summoned to put a curse on Isreal. The Lord sent an adversary Angel to block his path, open his Donkey's mouth, and open Balaam's eyes.

Numbers 22:22-35New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

Balaam, the Donkey, and the Angel

"22 God’s anger was kindled because he was going, and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the road as his adversary. Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him.23 The donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road, with a drawn sword in his hand; so the donkey turned off the road, and went into the field; and Balaam struck the donkey, to turn it back onto the road. 24 Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on either side. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it scraped against the wall, and scraped Balaam’s foot against the wall; so he struck it again.26 Then the angel of the Lord went ahead, and stood in a narrow place, where there was no way to turn either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam; and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he struck the donkey with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” 29 Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a fool of me! I wish I had a sword in my hand! I would kill you right now!” 30 But the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey, which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I been in the habit of treating you this way?” And he said, “No.”

31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road, with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed down, falling on his face. 32 The angel of the Lord said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? I have come out as an adversary, because your way is perverse[a] before me. 33 The donkey saw me, and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let it live.” 34 Then Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, “I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now therefore, if it is displeasing to you, I will return home.” 35 The angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men; but speak only what I tell you to speak.” So Balaam went on with the officials of Balak."

 

Paul talks of redemption beyond the law which was a curse.

Galatians 3:13New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—"

See how Jesus reverses what happened to the 5 kings?

Joshua 10:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"26 Afterward Joshua struck them down and put them to death, and he hung them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. 27 At sunset Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves; they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day."

1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

I mean, you know the Vatican is hiding great resources of ancient texts in Churches, and under the Vatican itself.  They could have just gone with authorities and taken all the evidence, and census info and hid them by force, and all evidence of Jesus, and covered all their tracks 1000 years ago or more, 1500 years ago.  They had the power to do things like this.

We do not need the Vatican for anything to know who Jesus was.

See how Jesus reverses what happened to Elija who was taken up?

2 Kings 2:15-18New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"15 When the company of prophets[a] who were at Jericho saw him at a distance, they declared, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” They came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.16 They said to him, “See now, we have fifty strong men among your servants; please let them go and seek your master; it may be that the spirit of the Lord has caught him up and thrown him down on some mountain or into some valley.” He responded, “No, do not send them.” 17 But when they urged him until he was ashamed, he said, “Send them.” So they sent fifty men who searched for three days but did not find him. 18 When they came back to him (he had remained at Jericho), he said to them, “Did I not say to you, Do not go?” "

Jesus one ups, and more what is written of the patriarchs. 

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Well, the way I remember it, about being hung on a tree, it was said that a man should not be hung overnight, because it is a shame.  So, I don't think Jesus hung on the tree overnight.  What I do realize though is that it's all a curse, and that's what God said he would do if Israel didn't follow his laws, he would curse them if they disobeyed, and bless them if they obeyed, but they disobeyed.  So, now, since it's spread to the Gentiles, we are all feeding on the curse.  Baalim is important, as he's also a part in Revelation and a lot of meditation is to be done upon that story.  Baalim and Jezebel

 

The thing with Elijah is, Jesus said in Matthew, that if you are able to believe it, then believe that John the Baptist is Elijah.  Because Elijah, and Enoch were the two that never died, but Elijah was taken by a whirlwind into heaven, and with Enoch it doesn't say except that he was taken. 

 

Anyway, it seems to me like you are cutting the stories short of their purpose

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8 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

 Anyway, it seems to me like you are cutting the stories short of their purpose

 

Mark 9:48New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"48 where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."

 

Isaiah 66:24New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"24 And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

Mark 10:13-14New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"13 People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. 14 But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs."

 

2 Kings 4:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"26 run at once to meet her, and say to her, Are you all right? Is your husband all right? Is the child all right?” She answered, “It is all right.” 27 When she came to the man of God at the mountain, she caught hold of his feet. Gehazi approached to push her away. But the man of God said, “Let her alone, for she is in bitter distress; the Lord has hidden it from me and has not told me.” "

 

Mark 7:28-29New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"28 But she answered him, “Sir,[a] even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.” 29 Then he said to her, “For saying that, you may go—the demon has left your daughter.” "

 

2 Kings 8:13-14New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"13 Hazael said, “What is your servant, who is a mere dog, that he should do this great thing?” Elisha answered, “The Lord has shown me that you are to be king over Aram.” 14 Then he left Elisha, and went to his master Ben-hadad,[a] who said to him, “What did Elisha say to you?” And he answered, “He told me that you would certainly recover.” "

 

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  • 1 month later...

Really depends on who you ask.. I mean technically the entire NT is Heresy if you ask a Jewish Person.

My question is.... Why did they not include the other Seven books of the NT....

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On 12/26/2016 at 1:33 AM, blackstarraven said:

Really depends on who you ask.. I mean technically the entire NT is Heresy if you ask a Jewish Person.

My question is.... Why did they not include the other Seven books of the NT....

Depends on which books.

If you mean the Gnostic books, then it is for the same reason most Christians don't buy into the Book of Mormon. Because the ideals included therein are counter to the main teachings of Christianity. Christianity was not meant to be, and shouldn't be, a religion of secret knowledge. Gnosticism is all about secret knowledge. Christian Gnosticism was the Tom Cruise Scientology of it's day.

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And how or why was Gnosticism to become secretive in the first place ?

Prior to the canonizing of the good 'books' what was Gnosticism was basically and technically the manner of worship all around the region where it originated, till branded Heretical and Pagan whence they were forced from common practice for fear for dear life ... kinda the terror that the Romans put the early Christians through ... and now what the Zionists is putting the Palestinians through from what the Nazis put the Jews through ... round and round it goes the merry go round of nightmares ...

~

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1 hour ago, third_eye said:

And how or why was Gnosticism to become secretive in the first place ?

Prior to the canonizing of the good 'books' what was Gnosticism was basically and technically the manner of worship all around the region where it originated, till branded Heretical and Pagan whence they were forced from common practice for fear for dear life ... kinda the terror that the Romans put the early Christians through ... and now what the Zionists is putting the Palestinians through from what the Nazis put the Jews through ... round and round it goes the merry go round of nightmares ...

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True. Gnosticism was a Greek idea. And Gnostic Christianity was the result of those Gnostic thinking Greeks trying to put the same thinking over top of Christianity. Once that was done, the result wasn't Christianity, any more then Mormonism is. Read up on Mormon beliefs, if that is confusing.

Gnostic Christians never were popular, or populous. That they were an equal ancient force with the Classical Christians is a internet created false fact. That is like in 200 years if people judge the Catholics and the Westboro Baptist Church (about 20 people) as being equally powerful. It just isn't true. 

I very much doubt that early Gnostics were branded Heretics. They more then likely were simply rejected. Later... There were some near Gnostic groups, like the Cathars, who were indeed persecuted by the Catholics in large numbers, and considered heretics.

Religion in such cases is simply an excuse, for one group of people to hate/attack another group of people. I really doubt that if religion were eliminated that hate would disappear. The cause of such things is human nature, not religion itself. If all minorities, all other faiths, all other sexual preferences were removed from a state, the majority would still find things, like being left handed, or green eyed, to hate each other over. 

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11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I very much doubt that early Gnostics were branded Heretics. They more then likely were simply rejected. Later... There were some near Gnostic groups, like the Cathars, who were indeed persecuted by the Catholics in large numbers, and considered heretics.

I dunno man .. you have this propensity to be highly economical and frugal with the truth if and when you want to fix facts into the frame you prefer it to be ...
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Quote


The women that were accused of being heretics in early medieval Christianity included those labeled Gnostics, Cathars, and Beguines, as well as several other groups that were sometimes "tortured and executed".[47] The Cathars, like the Gnostics who preceded them, assigned more importance to the role of Mary Magdalene in the spread of early Christianity than the Church previously did. Her vital role as a teacher contributed to the Cathar belief that women could serve as spiritual leaders. Women were found to be included in the Perfecti in significant numbers, with numerous receiving the consolamentum after being widowed.[44] Having reverence for the Gospel of John, the Cathars saw Mary Magdalene as perhaps even more important than Saint Peter, the founder of the Church.[48]

 

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Quote

 

Gnosticism

The gnostics were a sect older than Christianity itself. They had already used Jewish faith as a basis with which they mixed many eastern myths as well as Greek philosophy (gnosis = knowledge).
Due to the multitude of influences, gnosticism varied largely in its forms. With the emergence of Christianity bits and pieces of Christian faith were integrated into gnosticism.

 

  • roman empire net link

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7 minutes ago, third_eye said:

I dunno man .. you have this propensity to be highly economical and frugal with the truth if and when you want to fix facts into the frame you prefer it to be ...
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  • roman empire net link

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One doesn't "win" debates by handing out both sides of the debate. :tu: Being frugal with countering information is what humans do. In almost everything. 

I'd not call the Cathars part of the "Early Church", since they were mainly active in the 12th, 13th and 14th century. The fact that they were persecuted had more to do with the establishment feeling challenged then anything heretical they did. After all they were around in large numbers for almost 200 years before being nearly wiped out.

Your link/quote pretty much confirms what I wrote. Christian Gnosticism was a religion of "knowledge" that picked up bits and pieces of Christianity that it liked. It wasn't an actual Christian tradition, but a manufactured religion. That's why gnostic books that are called Christian aren't actually considered Christian.

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1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

One doesn't "win" debates by handing out both sides of the debate. :tu: Being frugal with countering information is what humans do. In almost everything. 

:lol:

Yup ... anyways I wasn't in it to win it or anything ... I agree with some of what you are insisting and insists also on much of what I disagree with but considering the subject it will be a long day on Mars before it comes to anything conclusive one way or another ...

:tu:

~

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On December 26, 2016 at 3:33 AM, blackstarraven said:

[...] technically the entire NT is Heresy if you ask a Jewish Person.

Greetings, blackstarraven.  

Speaking of Jewish persons, it was Ben Massada who told me that the author of the book of Revelation,

John of Patmos, "was actually describing how his own world ended."  Despite his habitually referring to

Christians as Helenists, I appreciated his point of view and often learned something new from his posts.

th?&id=OIP.M2a78fb9ad6d172946270cf4847d6fe10o0&w=248&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

 

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