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An impetus for 'Stone Age' 'sites' .


back to earth

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I won't attempt to get it all down in the first post but explore some ideas, step by step .   This post, I hope to set out some foundations, my views and basic reference material. 

I refer the use of the term 'Stone Age'  ;  it covers first Stone 'technologies' ,  spans the 'Hunter Gatherer ' / nomadic lifestyle and the first forays into 'proto-agriculture'  through to settlements and agriculture. Some may have had some metal usage ( eg. meteoric iron )  .  

One thing I would like to establish is the  concept of stone.  Look at how our society is fascinated by, focused on, and influenced by our latest technological 'age' ; I. T. / A. I .  

Imagine if stone took the place of that.  Virtually all you had as a long lasting / strong material , for building (in some cases with limited resources to  wood and other materials)  tools, it was all around you, made up a large part of your world. It has many different types with many different qualities (and I am assuming those qualities  extend to many areas we might consider 'magical' or 'special purpose ' ).   Many of my suppositions are due to observations of how Indigenous Australian cultures did or still do things as I see that as indicative of 'certain samples' . In this case , I would cite the case of the tjrunga stones  ( a type of  sacred personal or clan stone, holding an essence and level of identity and codified knowledge )  and latter have a look at some stone objects which may have a similar purpose  ( like some  carved stone neolithic balls  found at Orkney ) , but essentially, we might say they thought that stones or stone had 'spirit'  .... and held specific types of 'energy' .

Essentially ;  stone was the thing .... they were mad about stone . Of course they had the other main 'substances of fascination' ;  bone,  feathers, wood ...... wooden posts may have been the original 'stands' at Stonehenge, they may have been caved , we cant tell, but carved stone and rough 'unhewn' stone maintains its intricate shape .... to an extent, depending on the hardness . 

The next thing to have in mind is how the ancient mind contained such vast amounts of easily accessible  knowledge, and stored the memory of it before writing and recording came into use.  Many might realize this, or later, we may need to focus on this as this is at the heart of the idea. 

The next thing leads on from that,  an essential premise; that is,  of how the above was done; this is essential to understand the central theme of this thread and the thread's title/ It is also the main reference,  so , here it is 

'The Memory Code' by Lynne Kelly  ....      Lynne 

https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/popular-science/The-Memory-Code-Lynne-Kelly-9781760291327

and Lynne herself   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynne_Kelly_(science_writer)

I dont fully adopt Lynne's position as she is pushing 'her' theory and at times seems to offer it as the solution and the purpose, I dont .   I see it as one of them, and I see all the 'different' purposes as one purpose ... that is consistent with the way the old mind worked and Lynne's theories about it herself.  hence , in my title  'An impetus ... '  

The other interesting part is it can offer a clearer idea about the reason for constructing Gobleki tepe, the need for it also.  Why it might pass into disuse and irrelevance  ( be abandoned and filled in ) and give us great insight into a time we know little about; the transition from HG to settlement and agriculture . 

I will, like Lynne draw on experiences here with the very recent and , in some cases, still living ancient cultural practices of  the Indigenous in Australia. Two things here ;  one I feel is not many realize this resource ; in many areas, people postulate all over the world ' did ancient peoples do it this way, or that way or .... '   ummmm ... they still doing it right here !   The other is , it has only recently emerged in the general mind here that some Australian indigenous cultures  were in the  transition period between H. G.  and  agriculture / settlement  and offer a fantastic case study . 

The last point I want to make is the deep and complex bond between the people individual and collective and their psyche, individual and collective and the environment; the landform (geology) stone and rocks,  'country' , and the link between that and 'knowledge storage' or 'memory'.

That's enough for an opening post .   

 

 

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I forgot to note ;  on the link     https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/popular-science/The-Memory-Code-Lynne-Kelly-9781760291327

 

check;  'author interview' .

and of course this   :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci

 

 

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THe influence of continuance in the progression from one age to another of the Culture in question should not be ignored ... early settlements on the same sites would have been obliterated by subsequent advancements of the same cultural sites in question ... the discovered and recovered sites that survived relatively intact are those that are abandoned or fell out of favor to have continued relevance ...

Tech Transfer and Innovation In Ancient Eurasia ...

Quote

Of course, on their own such studies do not merely answer old questions, they pose new ones. Did the posited diffusion of metallurgical technology from the West to the East, via the Andronovo- Xinjiang cultural/geographical regions, necessarily involve the movement of large enough numbers of specialists and their families to be detectable in the bio-archaeological record? Was the “technological package” brought back by indigenous peoples who had travelled to the West, thus resulting in no genetic admixture detectable in their DNA? These and similar questions—which go to the very heart of longstanding debates on diffusionism—continue to resonate in a world where globalization, both ancient and modern, is now regarded as a fact of life.

  • Edition Open Access link

 

~

I think there's more to the tech transferred than just smelting and ores ... one way or the other ...

~

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Also some may not realize this ;

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/rhubarb/fingerprints-learning-styles.html

 

Again it is a case of ;  '  not one of these '  but  ' all of them ! '       (not to say each individual may have a proclivity to one , but in a different society we can see how many or all interrelate ; to learn properly one must use more than one method and ideally all of them, to an extent .  Think of 'The Renaissance Man' ,  the 'Genius' with varied abilities .    

This multi level approach is n many things;  the Sufi;s say, to know something; understand it 7 ways.  In initiation rites and rites of passage ( where knowledge is imparted and meant, not only to be retained, but to effect change in the person and their position in and relationship to their society )  both 'primitive'   and 'modern' (that is, even including 'text' .... a modern ceremony may have a 'knowledge lecture' segment and you may get the text later )  rites  'input' on as many levels as possible; actions, words, images, smells, movements, stories, sensory experience, sound and lighting effects, all with a central purpose or theme; ie. a 'dramatic ritual' ;  see  Werner Herzog's ' Cave of Forgotten Dream's - for the ancient { if you dont have access to such a ceremony}  or a modern script from some initiatory 'Temple' school or Lodge { Masonry, Hermetic Order of the  Golden Dawn} .

The most recent version is  'artificial reality ' learning ... put the goggles and ear piece in and the gloves on , and you are immersed in a whole world of a learning experienced focused to an end - the subject or thing you are learning. recent studies have shown this method can greatly increase the rate at which one learns 

 

 

 

:)     Well,    not quite   .  

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23 minutes ago, third_eye said:

THe influence of continuance in the progression from one age to another of the Culture in question should not be ignored ... early settlements on the same sites would have been obliterated by subsequent advancements of the same cultural sites in question ... the discovered and recovered sites that survived relatively intact are those that are abandoned or fell out of favor to have continued relevance ...

Tech Transfer and Innovation In Ancient Eurasia ...

  • Edition Open Access link

 

~

I think there's more to the tech transferred than just smelting and ores ... one way or the other ...

~

I liked this due to the ref  "  posited diffusion of metallurgical technology from the West to the East, via the Andronovo- Xinjiang cultural/geographical regions " .  Right up my alley  (or I should say ; valley )   I will check that out more.  yet it is a different and later subject .... somewhat , to what I am looking at here . 

 

This is significant ;  "  early settlements on the same sites would have been obliterated by subsequent advancements of the same cultural sites in question

I am not really looking at 'settlements' as such, more at 'monuments' . The concept basically is ;

People had the environments they moved through as the ' blank programs'  that they wrote their knowledge into .  The vast potential available could easily have more knowledge added on  OR  the landscape itself can be decorated (rock art ) . As they began to settle into areas and not move around so much they constructed  an 'artificial landscape' to store the knowledge on.  Some may be 'centers of location'  where the knowledge is helped along by rock art or an arrangement of rocks and stones .  Some small ones may also be carried . 

Eventually some people transitioned  to a more settled lifestyle  and only used the localized monumental arrangements.

New knowledge or variations and / or adaptations may have caused them to make changes and additions over time (as at Stonehenge) . To suit a better or larger purpose as a 'memory landscape / teaching / imparting / ritual center'  ( Gobleki tepe ? ) 

  Any break in cultural continuation or crisis may have rendered the monument defunct to that purpose. It could then be used for another purpose , say burials ( perhaps many  sites in the British Isles )  - some habitation may have been needed nearby, for elders, candidates during rituals  and for them only while the masses 'camped out'  for seasonal feasts and celebrations (possibly evidenced at Orkney ) ... I have actually worked on constructing such a building or space, more than once, allowing me access to an area or ceremony not normally given :)  

OR , the new culture may destroy, build upon or bury the old 'artifact' .  In some cases they emulate them without understanding , there may be some evidence of this through the later Egyptian Ages -   and it certainly seems the case today ;  magic crystal runestones anyone ?   :)

Image result for magic rune stones

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3 minutes ago, back to earth said:

People had the environments they moved through as the ' blank programs'  that they wrote their knowledge into .  The vast potential available could easily have more knowledge added on  OR  the landscape itself can be decorated (rock art ) . As they began to settle into areas and not move around so much they constructed  an 'artificial landscape' to store the knowledge on.  Some may be 'centers of location'  where the knowledge is helped along by rock art or an arrangement of rocks and stones .  Some small ones may also be carried . 

I get what you are saying ... I was proposing expanding the perspectives laterally because the gathered information and evidence so far and more importantly how it is being treated ... being compartmentalized does not help you out here ...

~ I'm in a bit of a hurry to start clearing up my weekend of things to do ~ that's all I can mange for the time being ... cheers ...

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15 hours ago, back to earth said:

Sorry, I didnt get you. I will  wait till you got more time . 

Hiya ... I was stressing that just focusing on the sites there are now available and studied currently limits the scope of your queries ... form a wider lateral perspective you may find more clues that may lead you further along the length of the answers that you are probing for ~

17 hours ago, back to earth said:

The next thing to have in mind is how the ancient mind contained such vast amounts of easily accessible  knowledge, and stored the memory of it before writing and recording came into use.  Many might realize this, or later, we may need to focus on this as this is at the heart of the idea. 

The next thing leads on from that,  an essential premise; that is,  of how the above was done; this is essential to understand the central theme of this thread and the thread's title/ It is also the main reference,  so , here it is 

This knowledge that you are hinting at is as much Cultural, Traditional as it is Historical before 'History' as it is defined today ...

~

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Could someone boil down this confusing string of messages into a simple two sentence statement like "I beleive that ______________ and it's based on __________."?  I have no idea what the main theme is supposed to be.

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11 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Could someone boil down this confusing string of messages into a simple two sentence statement like "I beleive that ______________ and it's based on __________."?  I have no idea what the main theme is supposed to be.

Thanks for saying that Kenemet I too am struggling to pull the message out of the previously posted items.

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From what I am able to summarized from my understanding so far, it is somewhat the application of Rosary beads to memorizing the God's prayers but on a grander scale and far earlier in mankind's history ... the accumulative and transference of collective knowledge built into the Sacred Sites ... in the language of stones and structures ...

~

I may be wrong ...

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3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Could someone boil down this confusing string of messages into a simple two sentence statement like "I beleive that ______________ and it's based on __________."?  I have no idea what the main theme is supposed to be.

Its about a possible impetus for stone age sites .

I believe that  ( and have also observed here with the indigenous )  that  oral traditions are able to hold vast amounts of knowledge, on multi-levels by 'memory aids' , some of which are attached to and organised by landscape and features in environment .  The landscape may be further enhanced by 'art'  this is based on my person experience with what the indigenous do here , some ideas I have had about other sites and the book I originally cited in the first post .

 

Sorry for not making that clear . .

When this full landscape map is  not available it may be reconstructed in another form,   and serve as a 'memory tool' for teaching . This may be one of the uses and reasons for a scared site. 

A similar process continued through the Greek and Roman world  as 'method of loci .  And is still used today by 'memory experts' .

I am postulating that this may have been   A  function of and reason for some sites . 

 

I was throwing the above info together as some type of starting ground, assuming many would know what I was writing about and referencing  , and those that would not, might ask about any specifics. 

 

(gotta run ... Saturday morning ... back later ) 

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3 hours ago, third_eye said:

From what I am able to summarized from my understanding so far, it is somewhat the application of Rosary beads to memorizing the God's prayers but on a grander scale and far earlier in mankind's history ... the accumulative and transference of collective knowledge built into the Sacred Sites ... in the language of stones and structures ...

~

I may be wrong ...

Thanks !   ...  thats roughly it. I will come back later ....

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7 hours ago, back to earth said:

Its about a possible impetus for stone age sites .

I believe that  ( and have also observed here with the indigenous )  that  oral traditions are able to hold vast amounts of knowledge, on multi-levels by 'memory aids' , some of which are attached to and organised by landscape and features in environment .  The landscape may be further enhanced by 'art'  this is based on my person experience with what the indigenous do here , some ideas I have had about other sites and the book I originally cited in the first post .

Okay....

Now.  What, exactly are you calling the Stone Age?  Is it a time frame or is it a technology frame?  In anthropology and archaeology and other -ologies, we call the "Stone Age" a technology frame and varies on its start dates depending on what you're looking at.  Some areas (like parts of Africa and the Mongolian steppes to name two of many) create their own problem in trying to assess Stone/Bronze/Iron ages.

And when you talk about Stone Age, are you implying the Neolithic or the Chacolithic or something else?

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Yes it is a loose term, I was trying to be loose and hoped my comments cleared it up a bit;  I tried to explain that in para 2 of the first post.  

One could say I am looking at the cross over from H G to Agriculture .  Even here, many of the indigenous (at time of European arrival) were at various stages of that,   It is a time frame , sort of. but also a technology frame, and here at least, depends a lot on environment ; the desert cultures still  maintained  a HG lifestyle as did the northern wetlands, but there is more than one 'stone, village'  with associated aquaculture, and evidence of the beginnings of kangaroo farming in the different environments of the south west. 

Maybe there is a better term ?  

( And some , in Europe and ... ?  ,   may have been able to work copper and other metals before agriculture - or at least some individuals were travelling around during transition  from HG to Ag in various areas   that could do that . )  

 

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

Yes it is a loose term, I was trying to be loose and hoped my comments cleared it up a bit;  I tried to explain that in para 2 of the first post.  

One could say I am looking at the cross over from H G to Agriculture .  Even here, many of the indigenous (at time of European arrival) were at various stages of that,   It is a time frame , sort of. but also a technology frame, and here at least, depends a lot on environment ; the desert cultures still  maintained  a HG lifestyle as did the northern wetlands, but there is more than one 'stone, village'  with associated aquaculture, and evidence of the beginnings of kangaroo farming in the different environments of the south west. 

Maybe there is a better term ?  

( And some , in Europe and ... ?  ,   may have been able to work copper and other metals before agriculture - or at least some individuals were travelling around during transition  from HG to Ag in various areas   that could do that . )  

 

That's pretty much true global wide. There is/was no such thing as everyone everywhere falling within the exact same Age for the same duration throughout their history. Earliest human evidence alone would suggest that a cultures/civilizations position technologically or agriculturally whether locally or regionally has always varied by degrees from that of others. I guess I'm not getting what your point actually is either.

cormac

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9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

That's pretty much true global wide. There is/was no such thing as everyone everywhere falling within the exact same Age for the same duration throughout their history. Earliest human evidence alone would suggest that a cultures/civilizations position technologically or agriculturally whether locally or regionally has always varied by degrees from that of others. I guess I'm not getting what your point actually is either.

cormac

Exactly some cultures remained in the stone age until the 20th century while a few moved out of it thousands of years ago. Cultures also tended to overlap their technology, as soon as bronze and iron weapons were created did all stone tools disappear? No stone and bronze weapons and items remained in use for hundreds of years until surpassed by superior iron due to cost and availability..

 

Edited to add: While Pharaoh Tut had an iron knife nearly everyone else in the AE military and civilian had bronze.

Edited by Hanslune
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12 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

That's pretty much true global wide. There is/was no such thing as everyone everywhere falling within the exact same Age for the same duration throughout their history. Earliest human evidence alone would suggest that a cultures/civilizations position technologically or agriculturally whether locally or regionally has always varied by degrees from that of others. I guess I'm not getting what your point actually is either.

cormac

yes, I realize that . I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. 

My point is ; 

To put out these ideas to see what you guys think about them .  I had not thought it would be so unclear ... or that I would be so unclear . ? 

One  first idea is ;      that   cultures  ( HG and in transition to  Ag )  that had no writing ,  are / were  able to store vast amounts of knowledge  using a memory system like the Greek 'Method of Loci ' , but first,  using the landscape 1.

 

second; decorating the landscape  with types 'mnemonic aids 2.

 

  and thirdly  constructed  'meeting centers'   where the stones, monoliths, etc  themselves were  used as the 'focus of Loci ' (and sometimes decorated as well ) and that these 'centers' were also used to communicate  and teach how that knowledge was to be learned and retained  3.

 

1.   

Related image

A journey around the base of Uluru ( depending on ones level of access / initiation ) one is shown how each area and each feature has a story ( myth, teaching, significance, practice, lesson , etc )  associated to it .

 

Image result for Uluru up close                                   Related image

Image result for uluru waterfall

 

2. 

Image result for rock art in Australia

 

3. 

( 'adapted' )

Image result for rock art in Australia

 

(constructed )

Image result for Gobekli tepe 'benches'

 

Related image            Image result for standing stones of stenness

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3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Exactly some cultures remained in the stone age until the 20th century while a few moved out of it thousands of years ago

Maybe that has just been too obvious for me ?  I assumed most would realize this  .

3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

 

. Cultures also tended to overlap their technology, as soon as bronze and iron weapons were created did all stone tools disappear?

No way !   I still have my stone mortar and pestle ;)     I do a ;lot of bamboo work ;  I have a few basic tools; a metal saw for cutting,  a machete for splitting and trimming and a big chunk of bamboo as a hammer to hit the back of the machete blade with, that I have been using for about 5 years . , its the best I have found for the job.    

3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

No stone and bronze weapons and items remained in use for hundreds of years until surpassed by superior iron due to cost and availability..

And many other reasons . There is also 'special purpose' .   The camp I used to stay at  had many mod cons.   And some of the biggest yellowbelly  (a type of  freshwater cod ) I have ever seen,  a box of metal spear heads for the underwater hand spear was always a welcome  gift, and of course, cigarette lighters, cars and an occasional trip to town for pizza :) . Up river was the restricted area , none of that stuff up there .  Still making stone tools there , living in a gunya made with stone tools.  I saw a stone  ax that was made ,  for a very special purpose ,  if a modern  ax had been used for that purpose  ('corporal punishment' )   all hell would have broken out ! 

 

3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

 

Edited to add: While Pharaoh Tut had an iron knife nearly everyone else in the AE military and civilian had bronze.

Eskimos had an iron supply 

 

Image result for eskimo meteoric iron cutlery

Image result for eskimo meteoric iron knives

 

Until the Yanks stole it from them ;

Image result for eskimo meteoric iron cutlery

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

yes, I realize that . I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. 

My point is ; 

To put out these ideas to see what you guys think about them .  I had not thought it would be so unclear ... or that I would be so unclear . ? 

One  first idea is ;      that   cultures  ( HG and in transition to  Ag )  that had no writing ,  are / were  able to store vast amounts of knowledge  using a memory system like the Greek 'Method of Loci ' , but first,  using the landscape 1.

 

second; decorating the landscape  with types 'mnemonic aids 2.

 

  and thirdly  constructed  'meeting centers'   where the stones, monoliths, etc  themselves were  used as the 'focus of Loci ' (and sometimes decorated as well ) and that these 'centers' were also used to communicate  and teach how that knowledge was to be learned and retained  3.

 

1.   

Related image

A journey around the base of Uluru ( depending on ones level of access / initiation ) one is shown how each area and each feature has a story ( myth, teaching, significance, practice, lesson , etc )  associated to it .

 

Image result for Uluru up close                                   Related image

Image result for uluru waterfall

 

2. 

Image result for rock art in Australia

 

3. 

( 'adapted' )

Image result for rock art in Australia

 

(constructed )

Image result for Gobekli tepe 'benches'

 

Related image            Image result for standing stones of stenness

Having interesting and various possible methods of retaining large quantities of information is itself an interesting idea. Having said that, your idea above seems to me, overall, to be predicated on the idea that all such non-Australian sites would necessarily be interpreted in the same way. While that is one possibility I have to question what evidence is being used to support such a claim and how, and by whom, was such a determination made?

cormac

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19 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Having interesting and various possible methods of retaining large quantities of information is itself an interesting idea. Having said that, your idea above seems to me, overall, to be predicated on the idea that all such non-Australian sites would necessarily be interpreted in the same way. While that is one possibility I have to question what evidence is being used to support such a claim and how, and by whom, was such a determination made?

cormac

Looks like I have to abandon the opening post and work through it like this ... which is fine, as now we are getting somewhere  ;

 

1.  Not All such sites, I am claiming it could be an important factor in some or many.

2. .Evidence, support and claim ( the research, done by someone else )   I cited the book mentioned in the OP with a link and it has a radio interview attached with the author, which may help to understand the 'memory technique' .   i.e.  the 'who'  who  made it  and ' how'  they determined it 

https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/popular-science/The-Memory-Code-Lynne-Kelly-9781760291327

 

 

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THe myths and legends were kept alive and inherited through means much different than it is today ... from Robert M Pirsig's ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE ... I learned of the Chautauqua

The tradition of imparting knowledge through tales and fables ... I think that's how theatrics started culturally throughout the history of mankind ...

Here it is also worth a peek at India and China's wealth of Historical references and Cultural heritage that is kept alive through the methods alike the Chautauqua

 

 

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4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

THe myths and legends were kept alive and inherited through means much different than it is today ... from Robert M Pirsig's ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE ... I learned of the Chautauqua

The tradition of imparting knowledge through tales and fables ... I think that's how theatrics started culturally throughout the history of mankind ...

Here it is also worth a peek at India and China's wealth of Historical references and Cultural heritage that is kept alive through the methods alike the Chautauqua

 

 

Whereabouts  'today'    ?  Is that a phrase related to  cultural and temporal bias ?    ( Which is why I originally chose the term 'Stone Age'  and not some term restricted by an overall date and location )

I looked up Chautauqua;  That was 'the most American thing in America '   :D      ....    

 

I also covered this 'dynamic '  (efficient  ways of 'imparting knowledge through tales and fables' in non-literate and literate cultures )  ,   in  Post # 4      

 

 

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1 minute ago, back to earth said:

Whereabouts  'today'    ?  Is that a phrase related to  cultural and temporal bias ?    ( Which is why I originally chose the term 'Stone Age'  and not some term restricted by an overall date and location )

Baby steps ... :)

 

1 minute ago, back to earth said:

I looked up Chautauqua;  That was 'the most American thing in America '   :D      ....    

Yeah ... but the smae manner of methods is globally similar ... from the Kush to the Bush ...

 

1 minute ago, back to earth said:

I also covered this 'dynamic '  (efficient  ways of 'imparting knowledge through tales and fables' in non-literate and literate cultures )  ,   in  Post # 4      

 

 

Yeah I know ... its all part of the same underlying supporting stricture ... that's what I meant by 'lateral' perspectives ...

~

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Theatrics .   Within the context I am talking about; the better term might be 'dramatic ritual '  *  

Such as the Greek mysteries  plays .  To see how this dynamic might have worked in older cultures , I recommended this ;

 

 

The same dynamic applies in indigenous ceremonies I have seen here . 

 

If you are in such a  cave, by flaming torchlight, as it is being moved and carried and one walks (or is walked ) past,, flames and cave art moves, chants rise and fall, didgeridoo wails , etc . 

 

animals legs, in such a moving flickering light , that seem frozen in time and strangely drawn ( multiple legs and blurry , to us, looking at the photographs)   seem,  to start to move and run , heads buck with horns , things appear, as they may do, in dreams ; an 'idea' of an animal , a form .....   'dreamtime  ' . 

 

          Image result for lascaux cave running animal legs

 

chauvet6.bmp

Edited by back to earth
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