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''Hell'', invention of the Church!


Hyades

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the fear tactic. A classic trait of religion .

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Brave Bishop for exposing the psychology behind the religion (although apparent to many, I feel)! 

Whilst there may be no 'judgement' after death...I would bring up karma but this may be off topic!

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Well people tend to use the word karma when referring to good or bad luck, but its true meaning is with reference to what happens to us after death.

You may well know that it's an ancient spiritual teaching (in hinduism and buddhism) which holds that how we act in this life will determine what happens to us afterwards.  It resonates with me as being true and also provides a good reason for being responsible for how we conduct ourselves.

What do you think of karma, Hyades?  (I like your signature by the way!)

Edited by sees
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Thanks Sees for your comments, appreciated!  As you said, the notion of Karma was thought of  years back by Asian Religions (if I have it right).  Is it relevant to what will happened to us in the afterlife?, I don't have a Universal answer on this.  My personal take is, we are searching for a meaning in life, we don't know where we come from, we don't know where we're heading, and we were brought up being programmed to fit in the Society we live in!  And usually, we learned through life that when one offer good deed, he may receive same and the other way around, is it karma in this life?, probably?, is it karma in the afterlife, I don't know, your answer is as good as mine.

If you feel that karma is geniune for you, hold on to this, up and until, you find a better answer that lights up your questioning on this great mystery of life and particularly karma.

Have a great journey in your quest on what is karma!

 

Edited by Hyades
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3 hours ago, AdealJustice said:

the fear tactic. A classic trait of religion .

It seems to be a classic trait of all human institutions.  Some are more devious in its implementation than others, I guess.  This bishop of a Christian church apparently refuses to believe the words of Christ, himself.  That disqualifies him as a fair arbiter of anything Christian.  As usual, people want to deny the validity of the authority - or even the reality - of God.  Everyone has a choice, make it and live with the consequences.  Why the need to continually dispute the question?  To what purpose?  Seems some can't take yes for an answer.

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3 minutes ago, and then said:

It seems to be a classic trait of all human institutions.  Some are more devious in its implementation than others, I guess.  This bishop of a Christian church apparently refuses to believe the words of Christ, himself.  That disqualifies him as a fair arbiter of anything Christian.  As usual, people want to deny the validity of the authority - or even the reality - of God.  Everyone has a choice, make it and live with the consequences.  Why the need to continually dispute the question?  To what purpose?  Seems some can't take yes for an answer.

note. those words are ATTRIBUTED to Jesus. Unless he physically wrote them , most things attributed to him are likely made up. are you Christian?

he refuses to believe an interpretation. Why is he disqualified from speaking on Christianity? his view doesn't agree with yours?

Edited by AdealJustice
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2 hours ago, AdealJustice said:

note. those words are ATTRIBUTED to Jesus. Unless he physically wrote them , most things attributed to him are likely made up. are you Christian?

he refuses to believe an interpretation. Why is he disqualified from speaking on Christianity? his view doesn't agree with yours?

 

First, your initial comment is ridiculous in the context of this discussion.  If you consider the words of Christ as reported in scripture to most likely be "made up" then what difference does ANY of this discussion make to you?  I am a believer/follower of Christ.  Any person who "wears the cloth" but denies Christ's words is obviously disqualified from being taken seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with me or my beliefs, however.  It's just common sense that the man cannot be a representative of a faith whose centrality of belief he doesn't even respect.  My guess is that if asked, he'd tell you that there are many ways to heaven.  ANOTHER major disqualification for being a Christian.  Look, I don't CARE what your belief system is, not in the slightest.  You seem to be just another tiresome example of haters that simply can't live and let live where Christianity is concerned.  Why is that?

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5 hours ago, and then said:

First, your initial comment is ridiculous in the context of this discussion.  If you consider the words of Christ as reported in scripture to most likely be "made up" then what difference does ANY of this discussion make to you?  I am a believer/follower of Christ.  Any person who "wears the cloth" but denies Christ's words is obviously disqualified from being taken seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with me or my beliefs, however.

.  ANOTHER major disqualification for being a Christian.  Look, I don't CARE what your belief system is, not in the slightest.  You seem to be just another tiresome example of haters that simply can't live and let live where Christianity is concerned.  Why is that?

my apologies if i triggered you... 
 

5 hours ago, and then said:

If you consider the words of Christ as reported in scripture to most likely be "made up" then what difference does ANY of this discussion make to you?

Because they ARE attributed words. There exists 0 evidence of the fact otherwise apart from evidence void claims

5 hours ago, and then said:

I am a believer/follower of Christ.

Well thats make sense in regards to you being oblivious in the Jesus instance. 
 

5 hours ago, and then said:

 Any person who "wears the cloth" but denies Christ's words is obviously disqualified from being taken seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with me or my beliefs, however.

But it does, as evidenced by your earlier biases.. Your beliefs have everything to do with how you observe facts relating to the historical accuracy of your beliefs.. 
 

Quote

 It's just common sense that the man cannot be a representative of a faith whose centrality of belief he doesn't even respect.  My guess is that if asked, he'd tell you that there are many ways to heaven

Yet he believes enough in Christ to interpret his attributed texts differently. He clearly has conviction in Christ, your dispute is based on your biases.. 
 

5 hours ago, and then said:

ANOTHER major disqualification for being a Christian.  Look, I don't CARE what your belief system is, not in the slightest.  You seem to be just another tiresome example of haters that simply can't live and let live where Christianity is concerned.  Why is that?

lots of nonsensical ending with a question. 

 

 

 

Edited by AdealJustice
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8 hours ago, and then said:

It seems to be a classic trait of all human institutions.  Some are more devious in its implementation than others, I guess.  This bishop of a Christian church apparently refuses to believe the words of Christ, himself.  That disqualifies him as a fair arbiter of anything Christian.  As usual, people want to deny the validity of the authority - or even the reality - of God.  Everyone has a choice, make it and live with the consequences.  Why the need to continually dispute the question?  To what purpose?  Seems some can't take yes for an answer.

 

5 hours ago, and then said:

First, your initial comment is ridiculous in the context of this discussion.  If you consider the words of Christ as reported in scripture to most likely be "made up" then what difference does ANY of this discussion make to you?  I am a believer/follower of Christ.  Any person who "wears the cloth" but denies Christ's words is obviously disqualified from being taken seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with me or my beliefs, however.  It's just common sense that the man cannot be a representative of a faith whose centrality of belief he doesn't even respect.  My guess is that if asked, he'd tell you that there are many ways to heaven.  ANOTHER major disqualification for being a Christian.  Look, I don't CARE what your belief system is, not in the slightest.  You seem to be just another tiresome example of haters that simply can't live and let live where Christianity is concerned.  Why is that?

Enemies from without are easier to oppose than those from within.  The bishop just happens to be Episcopalian.  Troublesome, however, is a larger trend.  Its corruptive influence extends well beyond religion, but, because sympathizers are sooner to recognize it, more pitiable are those without an inkling of how very much is at sake. 

0:-) MGby.

 

Edited by aka CAT
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I've had trouble dealing with the concept of hell since I first became a Christian. At least the burning torment kinda hell that never ever ends. I do believe in a judgment. But even with that I think the judgment is from yourself. Standing before God for the first time you will know truth. That's where we will understand how truly horrible we really are. It just never made any sense to me that the God I have come to know and love, would, or even could do such a thing. But I can't say for certain. I no longer burden myself with such things. Thinking about it too much only drives a wedge between me and my King. 

There are a lot of intelligent people who say we are looking at the scriptures wrong when it comes to hell, and have some pretty sound arguments. But like I said I can't say for sure. 

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5 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I've had trouble dealing with the concept of hell since I first became a Christian. At least the burning torment kinda hell that never ever ends. I do believe in a judgment. But even with that I think the judgment is from yourself. Standing before God for the first time you will know truth. That's where we will understand how truly horrible we really are. It just never made any sense to me that the God I have come to know and love, would, or even could do such a thing. But I can't say for certain. I no longer burden myself with such things. Thinking about it too much only drives a wedge between me and my King. 

There are a lot of intelligent people who say we are looking at the scriptures wrong when it comes to hell, and have some pretty sound arguments. But like I said I can't say for sure. 

 

I feel likewise.  I have never understood the need for eternal torment from a God who says he loves us so I figure I must be misunderstanding something.  It certainly wouldn't be unusual :P  The ones here that post such things may have a right to do, but the idea that any person can just make up any statement about the text and that will reflect reality just cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.  I won't argue with them any longer but a rebuttal has to be made.  The man in question was a BISHOP fgs!  I guess I'll never be able to look at Episcopalians as a group in the same light again.  You know that the text tells us that people will not abide sound doctrine during that final era of human government.  It isn't so much his questioning of the scripture as it is his smug certainty that he KNOWS he is correct.  I refuse to listen to anyone with such an attitude, especially when their words do not line up with God's word.  Anyway, I believe the "denouement" is near at hand and we'll know for sure in the not too distant future.

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This is a surprise to anyone? 

Maybe to people who didn't go to Catholic school. 

Look...there's some great stuff in the bible, like the Golden Rule. That has the best chance of being divinely inspired, in my opinion. And there's a lot of stuff that is obviously...painfully obviously...meant to control the masses. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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A wise man.

"Maybe salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity rather than rescuing you from it." and, "I honor my tradition, I walk through my tradition, but I don't believe my tradition defines God, I think my tradition only points me to God." (from the OP's link.)

I've somehow watched that video before. All religious traditions are invented for their own benefit. If there is God, God does not belong to any human religious tradition, is beyond all religions. To be free from religious tradition and dogma requires some objective intelligence, autonomy and a willingness to be free of psychological conditioning, which, of course, is a rare occurrence among we human beings.

It is much easier to conform to society's norms than to actually think for oneself. Freedom of thought is to most a frightening idea, as it requires self-responsibility. There is selective consciousness and selective unconsciousness. The unconscious obeying of some authority requires no use of critical intelligence.

When we are serious about our life, well thought-out analyses of our own motivations and of the motivations of society is essential.

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I agree that hell can be misused in order to engender fear.  Just go to YouTube, there are lots of videos that do that.  Fear of course does not work for long.  However Christ could have been talking about our freedom and how our choices do create us on many levels and that in fact can be a fearful reality.  So if a person lives for his or herself alone, then when they die, they are what they are, hell.  to deny this reality I believe is a desperate bid to hide from our own tendency towards evil and chaos, which our cultures show us in abundance.  When left to ourselves we have hell, when grace comes in, healing and love grow and we have something else besides hell.  No one is sent to hell, I believe what CS Lewis said so well:  "in the end there are two types of people, those who say to God, thy will be done, or those to whom God says "thy will be done".  To live in eternal isolation is a free choice, each of us can make it.  To not believe in 'hell' means nothing if it is a reality.





 

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I think everyone goes to heaven. After living through the adversity and suffering of our human life, we've all earned a rest.

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7 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

This is a surprise to anyone? 

Maybe to people who didn't go to Catholic school. 

Look...there's some great stuff in the bible, like the Golden Rule. That has the best chance of being divinely inspired, in my opinion. And there's a lot of stuff that is obviously...painfully obviously...meant to control the masses. 

The Eloquent Peasant

"The narrative framework of "The Eloquent Peasant" has to do with a peasant who is cheated out of his possessions. The peasant takes his complaint to the chief steward, presenting his case quite eloquently. The steward reports the plea to the pharaoh (king) who is intrigued. The pharaoh asks the steward to ignore the peasant, requiring him to keep returning and making more of these wonderful pleas. The peasant returns eight more times, each time imploring the rulers to adhere to Ma'at, an Egyptian concept variously translated as righteousness, order, justice or truth—but not just in legalistic terms, rather as features of the universe. Each time he attacks the matter in a different way, delving deeper into the implications of this abstract concept.

These parts of the story are usually translated into poetry. You may take them as precursors to the Greek dialogues, or to the moral sermons of the Bible: one passage, for instance, is rendered "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do", nearly two millennia before Christ is reported to have delivered the Golden Rule." "

http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/books/Eloquent-Peasant.html

 

Matthew 7:12New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Golden Rule

"12 “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets."

 

This was originally meant for your fellow Jew.

 

Leviticus 19:17-18New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"17 You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your kin; you shall reprove your neighbor, or you will incur guilt yourself. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."

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4 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

I think everyone goes to heaven. After living through the adversity and suffering of our human life, we've all earned a rest.

This will anger the faithful. 

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12 hours ago, and then said:

I feel likewise.  I have never understood the need for eternal torment from a God who says he loves us so I figure I must be misunderstanding something.  It certainly wouldn't be unusual :P  The ones here that post such things may have a right to do, but the idea that any person can just make up any statement about the text and that will reflect reality just cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.  I won't argue with them any longer but a rebuttal has to be made.  The man in question was a BISHOP fgs!  I guess I'll never be able to look at Episcopalians as a group in the same light again.  You know that the text tells us that people will not abide sound doctrine during that final era of human government.  It isn't so much his questioning of the scripture as it is his smug certainty that he KNOWS he is correct.  I refuse to listen to anyone with such an attitude, especially when their words do not line up with God's word.  Anyway, I believe the "denouement" is near at hand and we'll know for sure in the not too distant future.

What is and what seems to be an eternity can be subjective, e.g. suppose a monger of war were to suffer in proportion to all of the grief he caused on Earth.  Do not let one member bias you against a group when his personal views might be altogether his own.  With what you say after your mentioning Episcopalians, I mostly agree, while I certainly hope we are soon delivered from evil.

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9 hours ago, markdohle said:

I believe what CS Lewis said so well:  "in the end there are two types of people, those who say to God, thy will be done, or those to whom God says "thy will be done". 

Fiat!

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I've changed my mind, now I think everyone goes to Hell. I mean, what's this forgiveness? We've committed the crime and that can't be changed, we're guilty. God forgives us because after we committed the crime we believed God exists? I don't see the logic in believing in God or Jesus or whoever is what is required to negate our guilt, to be forgiven.

That's like saying, at trial, if we believe in the integrity of the Judge he will in every case find us not guilty. This concept doesn't make sense to me. If we're guilty of being imperfectly human we should go to Hell to suffer for our crimes against God's Commandments. 

If we're forgiven and go to Heaven, what's the point of God's Laws?

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39 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

I've changed my mind, now I think everyone goes to Hell. I mean, what's this forgiveness? We've committed the crime and that can't be changed, we're guilty. God forgives us because after we committed the crime we believed God exists? I don't see the logic in believing in God or Jesus or whoever is what is required to negate our guilt, to be forgiven.

That's like saying, at trial, if we believe in the integrity of the Judge he will in every case find us not guilty. This concept doesn't make sense to me. If we're guilty of being imperfectly human we should go to Hell to suffer for our crimes against God's Commandments. 

If we're forgiven and go to Heaven, what's the point of God's Laws?

You are comparing laws of limited man to a being of infinite wisdom. The shedding of mercy that falls upon those who seek it shows this being is of infinite love as well.

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1 hour ago, StarMountainKid said:

I've changed my mind, now I think everyone goes to Hell. I mean, what's this forgiveness? We've committed the crime and that can't be changed, we're guilty. God forgives us because after we committed the crime we believed God exists? I don't see the logic in believing in God or Jesus or whoever is what is required to negate our guilt, to be forgiven.

That's like saying, at trial, if we believe in the integrity of the Judge he will in every case find us not guilty. This concept doesn't make sense to me. If we're guilty of being imperfectly human we should go to Hell to suffer for our crimes against God's Commandments. 

If we're forgiven and go to Heaven, what's the point of God's Laws?

There are different kinds of suffering.  Usually suffering remorse is preliminary to forgiveness.  Even so, there is a point at which one can but vow to do better and, in earnest, deserves mercy.

God's Laws are about doing right by Him, ourselves and each other, which is about respectfully maintaining the inner and outer peace essential to human beings' fulfillment.

Edited by aka CAT
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