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World's oldest alphabet identified as Hebrew


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23 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

By "something in the air" do you mean the Hebrews might have developed their script independently? Several civilizations certainly did that, but the orthography of Paleo-Hebrew clearly shows its connections with Phoenician. See the chart at left on this page. Examples of Phoenician writing date to a lot earlier than Hebrew, so unless archaeologists can find definitive examples of Paleo-Hebrew dating to before Phoenician, it does seem pretty clear that the earliest Hebrew scribes borrowed and adapted from the Phoenicians.

As for exactly how Proto-Sinaitc influenced the development of Levantine scripts like Phoenician and Ugaritic, the jury is still out. Not all scholars concur. I must admit I've always been partial to the theory, myself.

They were neighboring cultures with at least some if not a lot of contact.  This would of course be "before" the writing of the OT, so thinking of the Hebrews as separate from the rest of the Canaanite world is misleading.  All I was saying was that influences in nearby cultures run in all directions, with words and technologies and ideas taken from each other and then elaborated locally.  Thus, reading this thread, it occurred to me that the presumption that the Phoenicians invented the sort of alphabet we use is not necessarily so, since the adoption of very similar alphabets happened over the entire cultural area in about the same time frame, it seems likely that there was no singular invention but an exchange of ideas.

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Abjad refers to a number system that was replaced, roughly 1000-1300 CE, by so-called Arabic numerals. 
http://bahai-library.com/lewis_abjad_numerological_system  Quite recently, the word abjad has received an additional meaning.   
 
People who write about the wadi-el-hol inscriptions (which the were discovered recently and are generally dated to the 19th century BCE) typically say the inscriptions use an "alphabetic script".   As shown in the following link, such people (who describe the inscriptions as alphabetic) include Frank M. Cross, Kyle McCarter, John Coleman Darnel. and Bruce Zuckerman.  http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/111499sci-alphabet-origin.html
 
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On 11/23/2016 at 9:45 PM, Kenemet said:

The truth is never as sexy as fiction unless you rewrite truth in a more sensational way.

I don't feel the truth needs rewritten in a more sensational manner to make it "sexy". I find the fringe conjectures involving alien intervention, lost technology comparable to today's, unattested geysers, and the host of other sundry themes to be unimaginative(yet simultaneously amusing).

 Creation of Maize, The anthropogenic influence in the PreColumbian Amazonian rainforest, Water management systems from various cultures, independently developed agricultural technologies (including ones that lead to modern monoculture practices which I find unwarranted) are far more interesting than extraterrestrial levitating blocks into pyramidal piles for unintelligent stinky footed bumpkins. Even relatively dull field  (imho) such as Egyptology has portions sexier than fringe with some of the interlocking masonry blocks rather than uniform blocks in straight, even courses on a few of their temples. Just the development of (semi)uniform blocks for masonry construction rather than usage of oddly quarried shapes which would require less labor to shape/place in construction of a stable structure is a far sexier notion than "Enki(or whichever Sumerian God) taught us to drag a sharp stick through the ground and put seeds in the furrows".

Edited by Jarocal
to add "All glory to our Basset Masters, May their ears be ever long"
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On November 26, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Jarocal said:

I don't feel the truth needs rewritten in a more sensational manner to make it "sexy". I find the fringe conjectures involving alien intervention, lost technology comparable to today's, unattested geysers, and the host of other sundry themes to be unimaginative(yet simultaneously amusing).

 Creation of Maize, The anthropogenic influence in the PreColumbian Amazonian rainforest, Water management systems from various cultures, independently developed agricultural technologies (including ones that lead to modern monoculture practices which I find unwarranted) are far more interesting than extraterrestrial levitating blocks into pyramidal piles for unintelligent stinky footed bumpkins. Even relatively dull field  (imho) such as Egyptology has portions sexier than fringe with some of the interlocking masonry blocks rather than uniform blocks in straight, even courses on a few of their temples. Just the development of (semi)uniform blocks for masonry construction rather than usage of oddly quarried shapes which would require less labor to shape/place in construction of a stable structure is a far sexier notion than "Enki(or whichever Sumerian God) taught us to drag a sharp stick through the ground and put seeds in the furrows".

Barbarian!

Remember that Egypt is the longest-lasting human civilization. And it's so much more than the pointy stacks of rocks they made. In fact, most of those pointy piles date from early in their history—at a time when peoples of Mesoamerica were still hunter-gatherers eking out a living in the jungles and deserts. Even great civilizations like the Inca and Aztecs were on the world stage for only a couple of centuries, before collapsing. Those stalwart Egyptians, on the other hand, were a kingdom for over 3,000 years. And let's not forget beer...good ol' beer. The earliest evidence for it in the world comes from prehistoric Egypt, at Hierakonpolis, around 5,600 years ago. But in Mesoamerica they made "spit beer" and pulque. I've tried pulque. It looks and tastes like dirty dish water.

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On November 26, 2016 at 9:32 AM, atalante said:
Abjad refers to a number system that was replaced, roughly 1000-1300 CE, by so-called Arabic numerals. 
http://bahai-library.com/lewis_abjad_numerological_system  Quite recently, the word abjad has received an additional meaning.   
 
People who write about the wadi-el-hol inscriptions (which the were discovered recently and are generally dated to the 19th century BCE) typically say the inscriptions use an "alphabetic script".   As shown in the following link, such people (who describe the inscriptions as alphabetic) include Frank M. Cross, Kyle McCarter, John Coleman Darnel. and Bruce Zuckerman.  http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/111499sci-alphabet-origin.html
 

I do believe you're right about the origin of the term "abjad," at least as I recall from my studies. I'm not sure when the term was first coined or who coined it, but it's now commonly used in linguistics to refer to other, older writing systems.

In the popular media the term "alphabet" is commonly applied to scripts that are actually abjads, like Ugaritic and Phoenician as well as Proto-Sianitic. But the fact remains these are not alphabets. The fact is, the Greeks were the first to develop a full, true alphabet in which both consonants and vowels are represented.

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On 24/11/2016 at 1:36 AM, kmt_sesh said:

Or is it that we've run out of fringies? They seem scarce. I'd like to think that they're all away at a big fringie convention to brainstorm new woo and will return to us presently.

I think our best bet is the ScanPyramids thread, which will bring back you-know-who. I keep checking for word on new findings, but nothing.

What a silly quest kmt, of course you won't find any news related to the topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not now that they identified the antimatter engine in the middle of the pyramid. 

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2 minutes ago, Parsec said:

What a silly quest kmt, of course you won't find any news related to the topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not now that they identified the antimatter engine in the middle of the pyramid. 

and the Mafdet Sphynx 

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2 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

and the Mafdet Sphynx 

I thought that was at the northeast corner, or something.

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Just now, Jarocal said:

and the Mafdet Sphynx 

Clearly. 

 

At least now we know how they triggered the geysers.

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15 minutes ago, Parsec said:

Clearly. 

 

At least now we know how they triggered the geysers.

Of course, through the Sphynx-ter muscle. :w00t:

cormac

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21 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I thought that was at the northeast corner, or something.

it guards the lower end of an inclined plane (ramps are unattested) designed into the structure itself which may have assisted in controlling water runoff from the Geyser lift system by having it gently spiral around the structure on it's way back down to ground level

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16 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

it guards the lower end of an inclined plane (ramps are unattested) designed into the structure itself which may have assisted in controlling water runoff from the Geyser lift system by having it gently spiral around the structure on it's way back down to ground level

That sounds familiar. Wait...

water-efficient-toilet.jpg

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23 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

That sounds familiar. Wait...

water-efficient-toilet.jpg

Yes, it does sound familiar. 

cormac

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3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

That sounds familiar. Wait...

water-efficient-toilet.jpg

ahh yes, those do waste the same amount of potable water in Amerca as would have the (imaginary) Geyser powered lifting system in the far more brittle environment of Giza.

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ok hey I just joined the site today - I'll be a "fringie" 5 5 5 - what about the Sumerian tablets - I believe they go back before Hebrew - and Sanskrit ? also have been here in thailand 16 years and the thai alphabet is based around the sanskrit letters  44 consonants and 22 vowels AND the thai alphabet also drops the vowels like the hebrew does - but thai's haven't been around as long as Indians and Hebrews but Chinese have also  

also I just read the Thiaoouba Prophecy by Michel Desmarquet and on like page 130 or so he claims the higher beings that took him a 10 day journey told him that 8 beings from the planet Hebra that were very similar to humans crashed their spacecraft in russia about 12,000 yrs ago and one male and 2 females survived and started the Hebrew race... now that is a long time ago - but the official hebrew calendar is like now year 5770 or something so that would be a big missing gap of 6000+ years - but they were human in form but maybe did live a lot longer on earth than future generations did - anyway  - I am not a scholar or anything - but my personal view is that the Hebrews rewrote older Sumerian stories - ie the Flood and others and they seem to be the ones that were handed down as "true"  - but the Sumers were well before the Hebrews and also old Indians were around with sanskrit 8000 yrs ago I think - correct me if I am wrong...and chinese... but  who got the most writing done and who started it ?  My one contention is that 6-8000 yrs ago all of a sudden man or humans on the planet all of a sudden got smart - astrology, farming, metalworking, herbs etc... so where did it get handed down from ? but after reading the T Prophecy  - which I believe was not a work of fiction that is explains a lot

anyway - would like to get some feed back  thanks - steve - thailand expat from usa/canada - living and working here 16 years now 

 

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13 hours ago, steve wright said:

ok hey I just joined the site today - I'll be a "fringie" 5 5 5 - what about the Sumerian tablets - I believe they go back before Hebrew - and Sanskrit ? also have been here in thailand 16 years and the thai alphabet is based around the sanskrit letters  44 consonants and 22 vowels AND the thai alphabet also drops the vowels like the hebrew does - but thai's haven't been around as long as Indians and Hebrews but Chinese have also  

also I just read the Thiaoouba Prophecy by Michel Desmarquet and on like page 130 or so he claims the higher beings that took him a 10 day journey told him that 8 beings from the planet Hebra that were very similar to humans crashed their spacecraft in russia about 12,000 yrs ago and one male and 2 females survived and started the Hebrew race... now that is a long time ago - but the official hebrew calendar is like now year 5770 or something so that would be a big missing gap of 6000+ years - but they were human in form but maybe did live a lot longer on earth than future generations did - anyway  - I am not a scholar or anything - but my personal view is that the Hebrews rewrote older Sumerian stories - ie the Flood and others and they seem to be the ones that were handed down as "true"  - but the Sumers were well before the Hebrews and also old Indians were around with sanskrit 8000 yrs ago I think - correct me if I am wrong...and chinese... but  who got the most writing done and who started it ?  My one contention is that 6-8000 yrs ago all of a sudden man or humans on the planet all of a sudden got smart - astrology, farming, metalworking, herbs etc... so where did it get handed down from ? but after reading the T Prophecy  - which I believe was not a work of fiction that is explains a lot

anyway - would like to get some feed back  thanks - steve - thailand expat from usa/canada - living and working here 16 years now 

 

If you're going to try to hijack this thread into your area of interest (rather than just acknowledging people don't want to post in the thread you started on your pet subject), /at least/ read the thread first so you can know why Sumerian doesn't use alphabets.

--Jaylemurph

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On 11/29/2016 at 9:07 AM, jaylemurph said:

If you're going to try to hijack this thread into your area of interest (rather than just acknowledging people don't want to post in the thread you started on your pet subject), /at least/ read the thread first so you can know why Sumerian doesn't use alphabets.

--Jaylemurph

ok sorry about that - yes about alphabets not cuniform - ok just joined and was not trying to hijack the thread - will be more careful in future... ok and I actually thought Sanskrit was around a lot longer than Hebrew but wikipedia has it at about 3000 bc or something - anyway thanks for the comment - wasn't trying to be a jerk  - also is possible language was around pre Hebrew 3800 bc but just not saved or found or if written down has been destoyed - but yes the 5770 years of Hebrew and 3800 bc would put it right in line with the Hebrew calendar at 5777. Also Sanskrit and Hebrew both leave out vowels in the written language which is very interesting as both are close in time even if Hebrew is designated the "oldest". 

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29 minutes ago, steve wright said:

ok sorry about that - yes about alphabets not cuniform - ok just joined and was not trying to hijack the thread - will be more careful in future... ok and I actually thought Sanskrit was around a lot longer than Hebrew but wikipedia has it at about 3000 bc or something - anyway thanks for the comment - wasn't trying to be a jerk  - also is possible language was around pre Hebrew 3800 bc but just not saved or found or if written down has been destoyed - but yes the 5770 years of Hebrew and 3800 bc would put it right in line with the Hebrew calendar at 5777. Also Sanskrit and Hebrew both leave out vowels in the written language which is very interesting as both are close in time even if Hebrew is designated the "oldest". 

wiki - mid to late 2000 bc for Sanskrit so Hebrew may have it with 3800 bc in written form - ok good on them 

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2 hours ago, steve wright said:

wiki - mid to late 2000 bc for Sanskrit so Hebrew may have it with 3800 bc in written form - ok good on them 

It's not 3800 BC, it's 3800 BP which is 1800 BC.

cormac

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Just now, cormac mac airt said:

It's not 3800 BC, it's 3800 BP which is 1800 BC.

cormac

well then that would put Sanskrit  at between 2000-2900 bc according to wikipedia - anyway OP article has Hebrew as oldest - which I would have to research as I thought sanskrit was far older - anyway - nothing against hebrew being the oldest alphabet if true  - anyway = both drop vowels and that to me is pretty cool  - same inventors or what? who drops vowels out of words anyway ? and the words meanings change when you insert the wrong vowel when spoken... and that is a problem with dropping vowels

 

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12 minutes ago, steve wright said:

well then that would put Sanskrit  at between 2000-2900 bc according to wikipedia - anyway OP article has Hebrew as oldest - which I would have to research as I thought sanskrit was far older - anyway - nothing against hebrew being the oldest alphabet if true  - anyway = both drop vowels and that to me is pretty cool  - same inventors or what? who drops vowels out of words anyway ? and the words meanings change when you insert the wrong vowel when spoken... and that is a problem with dropping vowels

 

And yet the OP as detailed by Petrovich is based on faulty premises which ultimately invalidate his theory.

cormac

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5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

And yet the OP as detailed by Petrovich is based on faulty premises which ultimately invalidate his theory.

cormac

ok so it looks like a "controversial" theory ... scholar says it is Hebrew ... wiki says sanskrit is second to late millinium  - hate to say it so I won't... looks like Petrovich is reading more into it than is true... Hebrew IS old but...let's get to the Truth !

 

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13 hours ago, steve wright said:

ok sorry about that - yes about alphabets not cuniform - ok just joined and was not trying to hijack the thread - will be more careful in future... ok and I actually thought Sanskrit was around a lot longer than Hebrew but wikipedia has it at about 3000 bc or something - anyway thanks for the comment - wasn't trying to be a jerk  - also is possible language was around pre Hebrew 3800 bc but just not saved or found or if written down has been destoyed - but yes the 5770 years of Hebrew and 3800 bc would put it right in line with the Hebrew calendar at 5777. Also Sanskrit and Hebrew both leave out vowels in the written language which is very interesting as both are close in time even if Hebrew is designated the "oldest". 

As I understand it, the earliest Hebrew writing is a fragmentary pottery inscription from Khirbet Qeiyafa that dates to the tenth century BCE (i.e., 900s BCE). There is also the Gezer calendar, which dates to about the same time period. However, not all scholars are convinced the text in these inscriptions is definitively early Hebrew but might instead be a related Semitic script—it can be very tricky to distinguish the Semitic dialects in the earliest stages of writing. Writing in ancient Israel would become common by the seventh century BCE, as I recall. But to be sure the language in spoken form existed before the tenth century BCE, and we can find possible concordance with the earliest evidence for the Hebrews in the late thirteenth century BCE (even if they were not yet writing).

My forte is the ancient Near East so I can't be authoritative about Sanskrit, but my understanding is that its earliest possible emergence theoretically dates to the second millennium BCE (although no attested evidence for it has survived). I should ask our museum's president, who is an expert in Sanskrit. In any case Hebrew is Northwest Semitic and Sanskrit is Indo-Iranian, so even if the two might coincidentally share certain superficial similarities, there is no connection or relation between the two.

The fact that Hebrew writing originally lacked writing doesn't make it rare. In fact, it was the case for numerous ancient Near Easter scripts. In certain of these languages emphasis was on clusters of consonants, and vowels played a subordinate role. The literate few could look at an inscription or text, see the consonantal writing in context, and automatically know in their heads where to plug in vowels. The same form of consonantal writing was practiced in ancient Egyptian, Proto-Sinaitic, Phoenician, Aramaic, and the original Arabic, to provide some examples.

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On November 28, 2016 at 6:34 AM, steve wright said:

... what about the Sumerian tablets - I believe they go back before Hebrew ...

 

Just to clarify—because I'm pedantic—Sumerian cuneiform dates to around the mid- to late fourth millennium BCE. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs emerged right at the same time. These are the two oldest writing systems in the world.

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kmt_sesh - ok very nice  - am not a scholar but had sanskrit dating back farther - appreciate the info - so you work at a museum? very cool...yah the sankrit thing came up as the thai's used sanskrit to base the lettering around a couple hundred years ago or whenever - drops out lots of vowels like hebrew does as well and written thai as well - but I am a dummy on it but nice to have some pros around that don't mind passing info along.. so 6500 years ago hmmm will check later after work thanks ! 

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