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XenoFish

The Magical Placebo Effect

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Highly informative. My own obsevation is it's Wicca with the Crowley effect still attatched to it and  a touch of modern psychology. Sensible and informative. Thank you.

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

with the shape of a foul angle riding an infernal dragon

So by no means could he be described as being acute then? 

Sorry. 

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2 minutes ago, oldrover said:

So by no means could he be described as being acute then? 

Sorry. 

Thanks I'll change that.:lol:

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The power of the mind is an amazing thing. Ive been learning a lot lately about using the mind to dictate your reality. To continually think about what you want from life, almost as though it already is. Practically beating those thoughts into your head daily till they are accepted by the subconscious mind. Learning that you are part of God, or as some like to call him, the source. You have the power to create your reality, but you have to break free from your programing. Awesome stuff.

Xen, you asked a question in another thread the other day. You asked whats so special about humans, that we are really just another animal. Not so. What separates us from basically any other being on this planet is our ability to look inward. Other creatures rely completely on instinct. What ever their natural reaction to something is, is the only way they can react. People on the other hand have the ability to chose several paths to any given situation. And have the ability to create a desired outcome. We can choose to no longer be a victim of circumstance, by understanding that circumstance has little to nothing to do with it. Understanding that what you choose to believe is your reality. The laws of attraction do not have a moral code. Its simply obedient. Any person anywhere can change their situation, simply by changing the way they choose to perceive

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23 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

The laws of attraction do not have a moral code. Its simply obedient. Any person anywhere can change their situation, simply by changing the way they choose to perceive

This is true however nothing will actually change unless they bring about the change they desire. Which is why I mention you need both intention and action. You can wish all day long and think nothing but happy thoughts, This'll only change how you see the world. Not the world itself.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-blame-game/201609/the-truth-about-the-law-attraction

I like no 13 on that list.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-blame-game/201401/the-law-attraction-revisited

http://www.schoolofcoachingmastery.com/coaching-blog/5-positive-psychology-findings-that-blow-holes-in-the-law-of-attraction

In another thread I mentioned how ideas change us. How by having a different belief we see the world different. Changing beliefs is all well and good. But it's when we change our thinking, change ourselves, and change our actions. Without all three of those nothing really changes. You might think about getting a new job and do nothing. You won't get a new job. You might think about getting a new job and if you start searching you've got a focused goal. 

What I do when I do it is to write down my goal. What I want in my life. I make a list of ways to achieve my goal. Then I create a sigil for that desire, fire it. Then act on my plan. I'd say I have roughly a 90% success rate. Just visualizing and wishing doesn't make it so. 

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26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

This is true however nothing will actually change unless they bring about the change they desire. Which is why I mention you need both intention and action. You can wish all day long and think nothing but happy thoughts, This'll only change how you see the world. Not the world itself.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-blame-game/201609/the-truth-about-the-law-attraction

I like no 13 on that list.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-blame-game/201401/the-law-attraction-revisited

http://www.schoolofcoachingmastery.com/coaching-blog/5-positive-psychology-findings-that-blow-holes-in-the-law-of-attraction

In another thread I mentioned how ideas change us. How by having a different belief we see the world different. Changing beliefs is all well and good. But it's when we change our thinking, change ourselves, and change our actions. Without all three of those nothing really changes. You might think about getting a new job and do nothing. You won't get a new job. You might think about getting a new job and if you start searching you've got a focused goal. 

What I do when I do it is to write down my goal. What I want in my life. I make a list of ways to achieve my goal. Then I create a sigil for that desire, fire it. Then act on my plan. I'd say I have roughly a 90% success rate. Just visualizing and wishing doesn't make it so. 

Absolutely. Although I will say, when you have reached the point where your thoughts have changed enough for you to react, even things outside your control suddenly seem to fall in place. At least that has been my experience.

I also agree that writing it down, and breaking down the how to's are super important. Then just look at the task you have to perform that day, Don't get overwhelmed by the big picture. I will have finished writing my first book some time this winter using this method. Its nearly done now, but I don't have a lot of time. Like building a wall. One brick at a time.

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I see it as a form of goal setting. Even if you wake up every morning and think to yourself, "Today will be a good day no matter what." this sets the mood for the entire day. You're not exactly being positive nor optimistic, you're taking a focused stance in which you make the day the best it could be. A realistic approach. 

It's like doing only 10 push-ups everyday for 8 weeks. It's not the push-ups that matter, it's achieving the goal that is. Willpower isn't something magical, it's focused determination. Magick is just a a ye olde form of self-help.

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Well I don't know anything about magick, so I cant really speak on that. I do believe though reciting a affirmation  like the one you said, can raise ones vibration level. That our emotions manifest in the form of energy, and can be an effective tool as well.

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25 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Well I don't know anything about magick, so I cant really speak on that. I do believe though reciting a affirmation  like the one you said, can raise ones vibration level. That our emotions manifest in the form of energy, and can be an effective tool as well.

You had me up until the bold part.

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5 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

The power of the mind is an amazing thing. Ive been learning a lot lately about using the mind to dictate your reality. To continually think about what you want from life, almost as though it already is. Practically beating those thoughts into your head daily till they are accepted by the subconscious mind. Learning that you are part of God, or as some like to call him, the source. You have the power to create your reality, but you have to break free from your programing. Awesome stuff.

Xen, you asked a question in another thread the other day. You asked whats so special about humans, that we are really just another animal. Not so. What separates us from basically any other being on this planet is our ability to look inward. Other creatures rely completely on instinct. What ever their natural reaction to something is, is the only way they can react. People on the other hand have the ability to chose several paths to any given situation. And have the ability to create a desired outcome. We can choose to no longer be a victim of circumstance, by understanding that circumstance has little to nothing to do with it. Understanding that what you choose to believe is your reality. The laws of attraction do not have a moral code. Its simply obedient. Any person anywhere can change their situation, simply by changing the way they choose to perceive

You are wrong in saying other animals rely purely on instinct.Chimps mastering sign language, elephants grieving there dead. A crow is an oppurtunist.Animals have emotion that can affect how they react to certain situations. Get yourself a dog and you will see this is not wholly an instinctual creature. Humans are not special. We have made ourselves out to be tho. Nature is connected in a myriad different ways, we are part of that and not seperate of it

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9 hours ago, oldrover said:

So by no means could he be described as being acute then? 

Sorry. 

he said  a foul one ... not a cute one ! 

 

Sorry .

 

- Nice' Magicum Opus'   Xeno !  

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Bravo! 

I hope an addendum follows on a more personal level on how long you practiced magick, your experiences, how you came to the realization it was your mind, and the reaction of this revelation by other practitioners. 

"Asking god for forgiveness is a means of releasing subconscious guilt. This doesn't mean you'll actually change, it means you've eased a mental burden. "

I have seen this time, and time again. It just shows the psychology behind it, rather than any form of divine guidance. It's a placebo that exchanges other thoughts/behaviours for another, but often times not true rationalization. 

Your mention of entering a haunted house with preconceived notions hits home with me. I used to go ghost hunting with friends. The emotions behind magical thinking clouds judgment, and creates confirmation biases. You enter a creepy old house in the woods at night. You hear scratches in the walls, and you flee to tell your tale. Of course such a house will have critters making themselves at home rather than anything unworldly.

Our minds are very much fallible, and this fact is what mankind should lower ourselves to in order to evolve out of. Setting goals by tricking the mind should be a tool, and not a lifestyle. Transformative powers are within our minds, but biological, and environmental influences often makes this difficult, or regressive. 

Your welcome, thank you, and others that fruited this thread.

I almost forgot to mention;

SITNPinch_Fig_1_draft_2.jpg

65554187.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, khol said:

You are wrong in saying other animals rely purely on instinct.Chimps mastering sign language, elephants grieving there dead. A crow is an oppurtunist.Animals have emotion that can affect how they react to certain situations. Get yourself a dog and you will see this is not wholly an instinctual creature. Humans are not special. We have made ourselves out to be tho. Nature is connected in a myriad different ways, we are part of that and not seperate of it

But   but  but    .... if not OT  ... what the hell is 'instinct' anyway ?  This vast set of skilful behaviors comes prelearnt at  birth .... in the cells ... via genetic memory  ?     What does that imply for us ... what other information can be carried  that way  ?  

I am surprised at your bolded bit ; we are special, in that we are distinctive from every other animal, that makes us 'man' ;  culture  ... no other animal has culture the way we do . 

I do not think however that  being special means better, superior,  more advanced even .... but we have a special distinctive behavior (as well as instinctive )  that  separates us.  Animals can have 'spirit' ,    (  distinct type, personality,  all puppies in a littler can have different dispositions ,  some might be more 'spirited' than others, some 'sweet' agressive , retiring ( I and I dont just mean the 'runt syndrome' ) even if all bought up the same .... I seen it with human twins too ,   their individual disposition that they seem to 'come with ' ... I call that their  'spirit' ... their essential nature (of type, not species, species seems 'instinctual ', eg. culture seems instinctual for the human species   ) .

 

Edited by back to earth
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20 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Bravo! 

I hope an addendum follows on a more personal level on how long you practiced magick, your experiences, how you came to the realization it was your mind, and the reaction of this revelation by other practitioners. 

"Asking god for forgiveness is a means of releasing subconscious guilt. This doesn't mean you'll actually change, it means you've eased a mental burden. "

I have seen this time, and time again. It just shows the psychology behind it, rather than any form of divine guidance. It's a placebo that exchanges other thoughts/behaviours for another, but often times not true rationalization. 

Your mention of entering a haunted house with preconceived notions hits home with me. I used to go ghost hunting with friends. The emotions behind magical thinking clouds judgment, and creates confirmation biases. You enter a creepy old house in the woods at night. You hear scratches in the walls, and you flee to tell your tale. Of course such a house will have critters making themselves at home rather than anything unworldly.

Our minds are very much fallible, and this fact is what mankind should lower ourselves to in order to evolve out of. Setting goals by tricking the mind should be a tool, and not a lifestyle. Transformative powers are within our minds, but biological, and environmental influences often makes this difficult, or regressive. 

Your welcome, thank you, and others that fruited this thread.

I almost forgot to mention;

SITNPinch_Fig_1_draft_2.jpg

65554187.jpg

 

 

I think I finally get you ... finally figured you out ...

alright then   < fishes around in pocket >    how much for five points of  this dopamine stuff ? 

 

On a slightly more serious note, I could give my answer to your  above 

how long you practiced magick -   around 40 years 

, your experiences - forfeit ... as its really Xenos questions  

how you came to the realization it was your mind, - through experience and observing results of experiments  ... having a scientific approach via Crowley's method of 'scientific illuminism' , each 'operation' should also be done like a scientific experiment, with a record kept and results tabulated and reviewed every so often

and the reaction of this revelation by other practitioners. - some agreed, some disagreed and claimed they got a  physical result (proof of  'astral travel' 'clairvoyance' evocative apparition etc ) although I NEVER saw them be able to demonstrate that ;) .   

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4 hours ago, back to earth said:

how you came to the realization it was your mind, - through experience and observing results of experiments  ... having a scientific approach via Crowley's method of 'scientific illuminism' , each 'operation' should also be done like a scientific experiment, with a record kept and results tabulated and reviewed every so often

I was obsessed with how it all worked. Why do we use so much symbolism? How is it we can command spirits, etc? Why do I feel the 'energy' when no one else can? I really dug into it. Plus I was reading a lot of A.O. Spare at the time. And it was his method of sigil magick that pushed me into the psychological model. I read up and realized that it was all in my head. That by changing myself I change the world around me in a non literal sense. Like I mention in my main post. A cognitive and behavioral change. I made it happen. I saw the spirits because that was either my conscious or unconscious intention. The symbolism was a trigger to create to effect I wanted. It set the mood.

4 hours ago, back to earth said:

and the reaction of this revelation by other practitioners. - some agreed, some disagreed and claimed they got a  physical result (proof of  'astral travel' 'clairvoyance' evocative apparition etc ) although I NEVER saw them be able to demonstrate that ;) .

A few agreed and the rest wanted me banned or where hyper aggressive about the idea. Like you I've never seen any demonstrable super power. I've thought that I'd done telekinesis a few times but the sheer amount of hit and miss wasn't convincing enough for me to say it's real. Because I can chalk up the hits as confirmation bias. 

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4 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

I have seen this time, and time again. It just shows the psychology behind it, rather than any form of divine guidance. It's a placebo that exchanges other thoughts/behaviours for another, but often times not true rationalization. 

You have to also consider divine fear. Which is something that you create. You have the idea in your head that god will punish you for doing x,y, or z. When in fact it's all you. This also applies to fear of demons, which to me is equal to being afraid of the dark. Just like a child might be. 

People really do under estimate the power of the mind to 'create reality'. They think of it in a literal way. That somehow thoughts will just magically make them a billionaire. They can if you have a plan and take action.

4 hours ago, back to earth said:

how long you practiced magick

I started back in the early 90's with the book Think and Grow Rich, as my local library was very Christian.<_<

http://eventualmillionaire.com/Resources/ThinkandGrowRich.pdf

(I keep a copy saved :lol:)

I also read a lot of self-help books and did what I now know as chaos magick because resources were limited. Eventually I got a job and a car, then started buying books. But something always made me question why are the show. Why do I need a ritual? Why this spirit and not that one? Why does nothing actually happen after I've done all this work? I found myself constantly falling back onto what amounts to creative visualization. It worked but I didn't know why until years later. I even practiced psionic for a while, which is how I learned about the mind-body (psychosomatic) effect. 

While I sometimes look back at it as a waste of time, it really amounted to self exploration. I learned a lot about how I tick. That believing and being are often two very different things. Even when it comes to faith (which is an emotional form of expectation) you either have a personal relationship with an idea (god) or you don't. It's your concept of divinity. You use it to infuse a wish through with emotional strength. Channeling faith and hope. Then when the results appear, you reinforce the divine placebo by thanking god.

picture1.png

http://www.thoughtsfromatherapist.com/2012/07/12/thoughts-emotions-behaviors-triangle/

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7 hours ago, khol said:

You are wrong in saying other animals rely purely on instinct.Chimps mastering sign language, elephants grieving there dead. A crow is an oppurtunist.Animals have emotion that can affect how they react to certain situations. Get yourself a dog and you will see this is not wholly an instinctual creature. Humans are not special. We have made ourselves out to be tho. Nature is connected in a myriad different ways, we are part of that and not seperate of it

When it come to choosing how to react to any given situation all animals rely on instinct. What they are hard wired for. I've trained dogs my entire adult life. I own two Rotties right now. When you know their psychology  and how they read body language, they are all exactly the same. Sure they have different personalities,  but they have no way of looking inside themselves and choosing a different option then what they are programmed for.

An Elephant cant choose to go not mourn a lost member. Ect ect

Edited by preacherman76

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6 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

An Elephant cant choose to go not mourn a lost member. Ect ect

http://www.care2.com/causes/4-animals-who-mourn-their-dead.html

Open mouth, insert foot. 

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23 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You have to also consider divine fear. Which is something that you create. You have the idea in your head that god will punish you for doing x,y, or z. When in fact it's all you. This also applies to fear of demons, which to me is equal to being afraid of the dark. Just like a child might be. 

I often overlook this aspect because it's so ridiculous to me.

Thanks for the biographical info.

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10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That doesn't make what I said wrong at all. In fact it supports it. That animals are hard wired for certain behaviors. One is a strong emotional response to death of their species. When one of these birds chooses not to mourn the death, for a reason of person preference, then you'd have a point. 

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1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

That doesn't make what I said wrong at all. In fact it supports it. That animals are hard wired for certain behaviors. One is a strong emotional response to death of their species. When one of these birds chooses not to mourn the death, for a reason of person preference, then you'd have a point. 

Then you need to word things better. A better sentience would've been. An elephant instinctively mourns the lose of a pack member. What my monkey brain saw was that it doesn't. 

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My bad

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Now before this thread goes off in the Walker fashion how about an inspirational quote?

13-inspirational-quotes-from-dr.-wayne-d

Now for some humor.

5cb0177cee96c59518a057a42df581a5.jpg

 

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"The researchers set out to determine if smokers’ beliefs about nicotine would have a positive effect based on their expectations. The researchers performed a true experiment where one group of smokers were told that the cigarettes that they smoked were nicotine free, whereas the other group of smokers were told that the cigarettes they were smoking contained nicotine. In fact, both groups of the participants were actually smoking standard nicotine-containing cigarettes. Following smoking the cigarettes all of the participants underwent functional magnetic resonance imaging of their brains (fMRI). Interestingly, the participants who believed that they had smoked cigarettes with nicotine demonstrated much higher brain activity in their brain reward-learning pathways compared to those who believed that their cigarettes contain no nicotine, even though both groups smoked regular cigarettes [2]."

http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/blog/0900/using-the-placebo-effect-as-addiction-treatment/

"Our findings suggest that subjective beliefs can override the physical presence of a powerful drug like nicotine by modulating learning signals processed in the brain’s reward system.

Little is known about how prior beliefs impact biophysically described processes in the presence of neuroactive drugs, which presents a profound challenge to the understanding of the mechanisms and treatments of addiction. We engineered smokers’ prior beliefs about the presence of nicotine in a cigarette smoked before a functional magnetic resonance imaging session where subjects carried out a sequential choice task. Using a model-based approach, we show that smokers’ beliefs about nicotine specifically modulated learning signals (value and reward prediction error) defined by a computational model of mesolimbic dopamine systems. Belief of “no nicotine in cigarette” (compared with “nicotine in cigarette”) strongly diminished neural responses in the striatum to value and reward prediction errors and reduced the impact of both on smokers’ choices. These effects of belief could not be explained by global changes in visual attention and were specific to value and reward prediction errors. Thus, by modulating the expression of computationally explicit signals important for valuation and choice, beliefs can override the physical presence of a potent neuroactive compound like nicotine. These selective effects of belief demonstrate that belief can modulate model-based parameters important for learning. The implications of these findings may be far ranging because belief-dependent effects on learning signals could impact a host of other behaviors in addiction as well as in other mental health problems."

http://m.pnas.org/content/112/8/2539.abstract?sid=c34beba9-532c-4958-bbb8-1a97a6e10589

 

download (2).jpg

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